Modeling a "night" scene???????

ajlafleche wrote:

The only real way to depict a night scene and have it come across as wuch in a box diorama where you control the light as well as the viewing angle. I've seen a few bvut I've never tried it.

Like a deep shadow box? Or using dio walls to block out light?

I hear Hans knows a thing or two about shadow boxing ... maybe he'll pick up on this one.

If I had walls "behind" the figure and everything was given multiple dark washes, and the shadows were made really dark ... would that work? Or would the fig just look like, well terrible?

My thought is this .... same as the thought about the ACU pattern in my OIF fig post ... those that "know" how to look at a model should get the idea that the dark washes and shadows are supposed to give the appearance of a dark space, right!?! Or am I way off base. I mean, you're not supposed to get 3in from a model to view it ... unless you're trying to figure out how they did detail .... right!?!

Crap ... am I thinking too much here? I need more coffee.

Scott,

I think you're over thinking it. There are several painting techniques you can do to achieve the effect of light hitting a subject. Candle light, spot lights, moon light etc. But you have to take into account the context that the subject is viewed in. If you paint your figure to show reflected candle light and the highlights that result as well as the warm reflected light, it only makes sense if you add that candle. With a night scene, it becomes more difficult because by itself, standing out in a room that is well lit, there is no relative environment to help us correctly envsion the scene that puts the figure into context. A shadow box or box diorama can help but if you detract too much by closing it in and not add any light source (after all, all vision, night or day is dependent on reflected light off of an object)and take away from the figure, you "hide" your paint job. Where I have seen a 3 sided "stage" work is where it separates the figure from its universal environment (the exhibit room or living room) and contains it in its proposed environment (jungle, desert, CIC of a sub, alley etc). This becomes an aid for the viewer to see your figure in the context you intended.

As a side note, I have seen some very successful figures and vignettes painted in grey tones to replicate a black and white photo. This works if the figure is separated from external influences and is quite clever even if photographed in color. (In my opinion the only place this "trick" works is in a photograph) but......take away the thing that isolates it and it becomes less of an impact. Afterall, even black and white surfaces (or grey) will reflect the color light that is projected on it. So if I use a blue back surrounding or cool lights the greys and whites (and to some extent blacks) will reflect that color range. Warm those elements up into the yellow and red range and the same is true. Not being truly black and white. A novelty trick at best but IMO outside of a photo to truly trick the eye into believing its a black and white photo rather than color, it fails.

Accion Press publishes a series of figure books that are very nice overviews of sculpting, painting and reference. One in particular that deals specifically with this subject is the Monograph series Euro Modelismo; Painting:Overhead Lighting II that goes into information for painting lighting effects with acrylics.

It makes sense to put the figure into a "thought" to help the viewer out. However, I don't like the idea of closing it all up in a box.

I may give this one a whirl and see how it come out. I think that there's some other things I can do to he figure to help create the "night-time" feel. For example, since the figure would be wearing NVGs (that's one) then I should paint a faint green glow around the eye and face. I think that adding green FO to the PQ-4 would help be convincing as well ...

...Anyone know how to many 3-4 inches of FO stick out straight w/o bending?

Lastly, maybe if I put a title to the piece ... something like "Midnight Raid in Mosul" .... that would help bring it across as well. What do you think?

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. Please keep them coming.

Definitly some pretty cool ideas floating around here- now I've got myself wanting to make something like this too! I really like the idea of using some FO for the laser and your idea about painting the face around the eyes a green reflected off his skin.

If you ever do get caught up with the idea of putting him in a box- I think since you'd try and use SternO's  spent casin- you couse use the grain of wheat bulb as the mussle flash and build up cotton flairs from that so it doesn't look just like a bulb at the end of a gun- not sure how NVGs and mussle flashes work out, I've always wondered how bad that would interfear- but that'd be one way to solve the lighting issue for the inside of a box.

I'm not to sure how else you'd be able to pull that off- although I like the ideas of significantly darker shadows or even like agent g said- painting the whole thing up like it's viewed from NVG's- could also explain the presense of the IR laser, unless you were refering to a laser that one can view with the naked eye.

I think the idea of the box would help the spent casings look more realistic as far as hiding the "cat hair" or whatever you'd end up using.

I'm going to follow this and keep an eye on the FO thread you started up in the Sci-Fi end as well- this concept is too cool!

I would agree with the box idea.....just paint the walls the color of the night sky and terrain at night and paint maybe a shadow (or, rig a really low power light) to replicate moon light and then do the whole painting him green thing. I think the key would be to set him back far enough inside the box so that the light doesnt fully reach him but still allows the viewer to make out details.

Thats sort of just me rambling about my ideas.

David

psstoff995 wrote:

I really wish I had that Shep book- it's back home too- my brother has an account on this forum, I'll get him to scan the pages that go over the shadow boxes- I know it sounds kinda so so at first but if you look at the results I think you might go for it- it almost turns the model into a 3D painting, you can get some pretty dramatic effects- and not JUST with the post-photography

I have the book, if I have time tomorrow (school and hockey ugh) then I will take a couple pictures of the pages and post them here. I thought that scanning them was illegal or something but I could be wrong. If I get a chance I'll take the pictures. I think there might even be a night scene in there too but I'll check tomorrow.

David

Not sure about the legality, but pictures is really the same thing as scanning I would imagin. I wouldn't post them to the public forums but instead send them via PM to avoid any leagal questions all together, thanks WW2!

There's definitly a few night scenes in there. Theres the ghosts of the civil war on with little FO as stars and there's a copy of a painting I think something along the lines of this one- link??

And also some sci-fi stuff like an ogre and a girl in a swamp and the classic headless horseman scene. Maybe more- I really liked all the mirror stuff with ghosts- that was always sweet.

Wow ... all great points. This is what I've been looking for in the forum. THANKS.

Psst, I see what you mean about the IR laser being "seen" by the naked eye. Guess it doesn't make sense to wire it with FO unless I'm going to be painting the whole dio green like WW2 said. I'm nto real sure how I feel about that.

As far as painting it up "at night" and then using the muzzle flash. I think that those two ideas should be kept separate. I think that there would be too many thing to try and "pull off".

I've got a couple of Shep books, so I'll take a look through them. Good thing for me though, my trip go pushed to Tuesday morning .... A DAY TO BUILD!!! HO-RAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

I'm still just thinking on this one ... still need to focus on getting my current fig completed, .... thinking about going to a show in Live Oaks, TX later this month.

The "night" figure will have to stay on paper for a bit.

modelchasm wrote:

I think that there would be too many thing to try and "pull off".

Yeah I can see how that would get too complex and busy to look at. I thing though if it ever makes it off the drawing board and all built up- it will definitly be one of a kind!

modelchasm wrote:

I've got a couple of Shep books, so I'll take a look through them. Good thing for me though, my trip go pushed to Tuesday morning .... A DAY TO BUILD!!! HO-RAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Awesome! Sounds good to me

Frankly, I think they best way to do it is in a shadow box.... Your lighting would need to be some shades of blue though...  Another idea is to light it normally then use a darkened piece of clear styrene for the veiwing window that masks the white lights but appears to be night through the the filter... Theater lighting gels would be the best thing to use for both the lights and the window.. 

I was actually thinking something very similar while lying in bed last night. I was thinking about using a clear green sheet set in a circular pattern (as if the viewer was looking through a PVS-14 themselves.)

Have you tried this technique before, Hans? How well did it work out?

If I'm thinking right, this should work out well. And the biggest plus side would be that I really would have to change that much from a regular build!

PLS let me know what you think!

I see what you're saying ...

However, I have thought about that a little. I'm planning on adding in FO light (specifically the "laser" coming from the PEQ-4) in some places to try and recreate those bright spots.

I do agree though that my color contrasts are going to have to be much more drastic than on a normal figure to help get the "brights and darks" through the green film. But, as Hans pointed out, by using the clear (green) film, I'm representing the viewer looking through a pair of NVG's. Therefore everything will be "bright" for them to see. So I don't need to worry about shielding the figure from the natural light coming in from the room.

I have a feeling that this build is going to be a MONSTER!!!!

Thanks for your help aj!

ajlafleche wrote:

The above mage from aj is the exact idea that I have in my head right now. Use a sheet of black styrene with a large hole cut out, with the green film behind it. That's what the viewer sees when they walk up to the model.

Thoughts ...

Stern0 wrote:

Was thinking of those black light posters from back in the day...do they make a paint that "glows" in black light?

I just a total complete brain collaspe when I read your reply WW2 .... If I wired up an IR LED behind the viewer's "NVG" screen so that it throws IR light on the figure, THEN instead of painting the small IR squares on the uniform black ... I can use small cuts from an actual IR reflector square from an old uniform. Using the green filter/ film would you be able to see the IR glow? Hmmm .... might be worth a shot. (I know, I know .... I've used the stuff in combat, and I have to concept of how it really works .... it's ok ,I know I'm retarded!)

I simple understanding is this ... the green film should show the IR glow as it's filtering out all the light except the green light .... right!?!

Either that or I could try running FOs to those spots on the uniform. I know that would work. the only thing is, that's a lot of drill out to do on a 120mm figure ....

But it'd be worth it though, wouldn't it!!!

This is going to be a monster! I think your idea about the green film would work great for setting the scene AND keeping the figure build more or less straight forward. It would also look awesome with the FO laser and if you could pull off the IR patches that'd be insane!!

I know you're going on a trip tomorrow and you already have a decent workbench load- but I'm still really excited to see where you can run with this idea.

I know .... I was talking about it with the wife last night and all she could do was roll her eyes and ask how much I thought the whole thing was going to run.

I think the only thing that I've got to figure out is the M14 situation .... Mmmm ....

But yeah ... I'm trying not to get too overly-excited about it just yet. However, it is helping to push me to get done with my current figure.

Now the other 4 builds on the desk .... that's another situation...

modelchasm wrote:

I was actually thinking something very similar while lying in bed last night. I was thinking about using a clear green sheet set in a circular pattern (as if the viewer was looking through a PVS-14 themselves.) Have you tried this technique before, Hans? How well did it work out? If I'm thinking right, this should work out well. And the biggest plus side would be that I really would have to change that much from a regular build! PLS let me know what you think!

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Rather than using fiber optics for stars, I poked holes into a background of black velvet and back-lit it.

Yeah I thought about doing it that way too- definitly sounds more economical- how big a whole did you have to poke? I was thinking of doing it in a black cardstock like material- but with velvet I'd imagin unless you really tacked it down tight, the fabric would kind of envolope itself if the hole was too small.

...I gues nothing's too small when you're talking about light coming through?

I still think you'll have to paint his black and white. There will be color shifts, reds will be browner, etc, but I still think you won't get the effect you want. See if you can find a pair of green sunglasses and hoild that beteween you and a painted kit. That's what you're going to get with a normally painted figure.

ajlafleche wrote:

I still think you'll have to paint his black and white. There will be color shifts, reds will be browner, etc, but I still think you won't get the effect you want. See if you can find a pair of green sunglasses and hoild that beteween you and a painted kit. That's what you're going to get with a normally painted figure.

I already have a couple of sheets of the green film. It's made by Midwest Products and is labeled "Green PVC, .005 x 7.6" x 11".

I've got three sheets. When held up together, they create right about the correct green that I'm looking for. However, I do see what you're saying about the colors. But, for the scene that I'm going for there's really not all that much "color" to it. Iraq is all blan unless you're in the cities and looking at (mostly) womens' clothing. The figure I'm going for will have mostly browns, tans, greys (as I've found greys to be the best for ACU), and blacks. I'm also hoping that the green FO lighting to be used will help as well.

I figure that drilling out the figure won't be too bad. I'm thinking of a central drill hole through the core and down one leg. I'm going to need to light-up IR tabs on each shoulder, three on the helmet (both in white light so it's very bright), the PVS-14's will be lit so that the light reflects off the face, and the acrylic rod "laser" will be lit as well from the PEQ-4 on the rifle (both with green lights).

For the base, I'm thinking of putting the figure in the "corner" of a room. Something that will help close him in and cut off most of the surrounding light. If needed, I can always add a "roof" coming off the viewers window to help "shade" the dio.

Does anyone have idea if the fore-mentioned IR led with IR tabs would work? I guess I could always light up the model with IR lights and pass out NVGs to everyone to look at it!?! But then again I think my wife would have choice words about building the most expensive model on the planet....

If ALL that fails, I can always remove the white LED, replace it with a green one, so that all FO lighting coming from the model is green .... Wash the crud out of the fig and dio in dark washes, remove the filter/ film altogether and see if that works!?!

Did some test in photoshop using a color picture and the same picture in B&W and I have to agree. Although the ACU through a transparent green layer looked the same in color and B&W- the fleshtones are the problem. Because the ACU is made up of grays and light tans, it's not really a big issue, but if your groundwork/buildings/skin tone is done in anything harsher than a grayish/greenish tone, it will be seen through the transparent green as a half green half flesh/sand color etc.

I think if you do 90% of the figure painting as usual- then just did the flesh colors in a white-light grey range, maybe some blacks for deep shadows- you'd be ok.

The green I picked for ^ was off- I'm sure you can find a better representation.

And hey- here's one I found on google that looks pretty close to what you're describing

...wait a minute- 1st Cav and an M14 on the ground- you know this guy?

Just noticed something- I think if you decide to do this- intead of a solid green color of plastic- you might want to try getting some clear green pains of various shades and coloring the plastic yourself- because of the way the IR sensors are set up and the curve of the lenses, it comes out like an over exposure in film photography would- more light in the center creates an unnatural kind of gradient- light green to dark green, like the IR waves bounce around inside the NVGs and collect in the middle? I don't know...

I think if you airbrushed a lighter green in the center and worked your way out using darker greens you could pull off a similar effect if you wanted to. haha just to add another layer of complexity to this project.

Ah! You snuck one in while I was writing. If you already have the green film taken care of then no big deal.

I think you you could pull of lighting the IR patches from behind with FO that'd be amazing- if you could get some kind of clear acrylic sheet (thin) and cut it into squares then place them over top the FO as an "IR" patch- that might work to help shine the FO out in the IR square patch pattern you're looking for.

But again- I think you might be better off converting flesh tone to greys, and kind of brows to grey blacks and so on- like you said- the ACU should be fine, but anything outside of that soft color might show through AS color (like a dark brown might look to be a greenish brown?)