Modeling a "night" scene???????

I had the chance to test some of the ideas that I had come up with over the weekend. For the PEQ-4 beams, I'm going to use green LEDs for the light source, run FO up through the figure and out the weapon to the PEQ-4. Then, I'm going to use a thin piece of clear acrylic rod for the beam. The follow the rod out from the FO just fine. Plus, the rod will shoot out and stay straight ... as a laser beam would.

I'm hoping that I can get my current project finish up this week and I can get started on this one hopfully starting next week.

modelchasm wrote:

The above mage from aj is the exact idea that I have in my head right now. Use a sheet of black styrene with a large hole cut out, with the green film behind it. That's what the viewer sees when they walk up to the model. Thoughts ...

I think that's a good start, and consider painting the figures in grayscale, only really bright or well lit objects appear almost white in the Night Vision commonly seen on CNN, and the only blacks are absolute dark, which actually appears grainy as well. When viewed through the green film, it would appear "normal for NVG.  MOst NVG cameras have no color sensors, only monochrome, so it's not the same as if a red object under a green film would appear black, in NVG it appears green.

If you were to use the green film, then you could use white thread for the PAQ-4 beams, as well.

You both make very good points on this ...

I think that my course of action is going to be to build the dio "conventionally" (as Hans put it) and if it doesn't fall into place the way I've got it in my head, it shouldn't take long to re-*REPORT ME!!* and build a box set-up for it. Besides, even when doing a shadow box, you've got to figure out how the figures are going to be set up first anyway.

The BIGGEST plus side that I see in putting it together in a box, is that I wouldn't have to drill out and hide all the wiring and FO inside the figures. I would just be able to run them along the backside IOT hide it from the viewer.

As stated before, one of my biggest things is just being able to "look" around the model/ dio to see all the angles. But yes, as Hans said, building it up conventionally, it will be a challenge for me to get the viewer to look FIRST through the "NVG" film ... and THEN, if they want to look around it they can ... but it's all about that first view.

Still on the road, there's not much that I can do besides type, read, and think about it. Once I get back to the house on Monday, I'm planning on starting up some mock-ups as the paint on my current figure is drying. Hopefully, with a couple of days off, I'll be able to make a little headway and post some pics of my findings. Maybe then I'll have a little more insight on the direction I should go.

Thanks again guys for all your help and "debate" on the matter. PLS keep your thoughts coming ... constructive critizism is the only thing that makes us better.

3D painting- yep. And as far as the issue with three figures, multiple poses and painting etc. it will save you a lot of time. There's a picture in that book of ...very bad with historical figures but I'm going to call him a French looking officer, and Shep has a picture of the backside of him, and it's all putty work and a you can see the plastic base kit, pretty cool stuff, so if you do it up in that sense, it might be better when it comes to the idea of the viewer wanting to know how it was built up and all that- displaying a little photo book or a shot of two of the back side of the dio.

I think ultimatly it's up to you how you want to go about it. You could always concider some way to rig it so that the roof is removable? Side walls can peel away?

I think with all the lighting effects and the need for the viewer to really think they're looking through some NVGs lends itself perfectly to a shadow box. I think the fact that you're going to be using the aid of some prebuilt kits might help you remove yourself a little bit from the figure build so you wont feel as bad about hiding them in a box? But yeah I agree with Hans about the mystery of the shadow box, I saw the pictures of the "ghosts" in the dio book and after some reading on how it was put together I was like... I could do this?!! Which... was cool for me to know as I was reading the book for that reason... but I think if you wanted a non modeler to look at it, if they were kept guessing about your FO lights and the way the brass was hanging in the air, it'd might be better if you kept them guessing. And then the little "build book" could document that process if they really did want to know how you did it.

You're thinking that a shadow box is a conventional diorama... It's not... It's really a 3-D painting or photograph... Just as you can't flip over a picture of a guy and see his back, the shadow box is the same way..

  You don't want folks to know how you did it... Kinda like bein' a magician...  If you know how it's done, it loses it's mystery and fun...

'Course, there's nothing stopping you from building it conventionally...  It'll be a bit harder to achieve the effects you've pictured in your mind, IMHO,  but not impossible...   Give it a shot in the open.. You got nothin' to lose, pard...

So, I called the wife last night and as it turns out I have Shep's Dio book at the house. (The one Hans has been referencing.) I've also been doing a lot more reading about it online. I'm starting to come around to the idea, but the only thing that really keeps me hesitant is the idea of shutting the model in.

I really do think that this dio would be fantastic using only the FO and LED's for lighting. However, a big part of modeling (at least for me) is not only to see the dio for what it's supposed to represent, but also the oppurtunity to turn the model 360* and see all the details and how the modeler pulled it off. I just think that by shutting the dio into a box would be limiting that part of the viewing experience.

I'm not trying to down the idea of the shadow box ... does the above make sense or am I just being ignorant as I've never built a "box"?

Yeah, I've come across some info in the past and had another FSMer give me a lot of info on it and there was an atricle in the magazine I came across. I think it just comes down to me needing to get out the supplies and just go for it.

Thanks for the write up offer, should definitly help to motivate me I'll start searching around here in the meantime.

psstoff995 wrote:

I'll hafta start makin molds...

It's really pretty easy. I'm getting ready to make some more molds/ casts. I'll do a picture write up and PM you with it. There's also TONS of info on the forum as well.

modelchasm wrote:

(and even though I love'em, Verlinden is BAD for this) are only different in the pose ... they even come with the, literally, same gear ... usually from the exact same cast.

I know exactly what you're talking about...

They do the same thing with their 1/35. Basically, find your era, get one or two figures and you have the whole line if you recast and repose yoursef.

Mix in some Hornet heads and you've got your own custom stuff.

I'll hafta start makin molds...

Well, I look at it this way. I'm trying these figures because thy're more modern than ANYTHING else out there right now. They have decent posing, gear, and they each have gear that's very different from the others. Most plastic/ reson figures out there (and even though I love'em, Verlinden is BAD for this) are only different in the pose ... they even come with the, literally, same gear ... usually from the exact same cast.

If I end up trying to scratch these figures and it doesn't work, then I haven't really lost anything. I've still got pretty good figures for cheap. I can hack them up and cast them ... potentially making who knows how many custom figures. The only thing that I will have lost is time, but I will have gained knowledge for future builds.

All-in-all, I think that it's going to work out alright.

But now that we are WAY off topic ...

Hans von Hammer wrote:

psstoff995 wrote: now where's the fun in having a $2000 pair of NVG's if they don't have cool little readouts and cross hairs... Actually, I think my PVS-7s went for around $7000...

Whaaa?? And no spider silk! So much for a generous estimate.

But I gotchya modelchasm- wasn't sure if you were going SF or regular Army, that makes more sense as far as the diversity. As far as your plans for em- sounds like a good deal. I hope the painting situation works out, were you doing ACU or DCU? I think SF guys might have been less likely to switch over to willingly switch to ACU, at least as quick, as a regular grunt that didn't get a choice? But that could be wrong, again, you'd know.

I think you'd be able to paint on vinyl just fine, probably wouldn't hurt to use some good primer. But I see what you're saying if you mean you'd have to scrap the whole pre-painted feature and then... back to where you started...

I never had the courage to total up my hand receipt... I woulda vapor-locked, I think..

When my daughter was hoping to get Apaches, she wondered how much it would run for her to buy her own flight helmet... They cost 14,000 dollars a pop... Hell, I bought her a custom SPH-4B for graduation and THAT set me back 500.00...

Hans von Hammer wrote:

psstoff995 wrote: now where's the fun in having a $2000 pair of NVG's if they don't have cool little readouts and cross hairs... Actually, I think my PVS-7s went for around $7000...

... yeah, they're a little pricey. For a PLT of about 24 joes ... I was signed for right about $1mil bones worth of crap.

psstoff995 wrote:

I think the figure choices look pretty good as far as the equipment and the weapons assuming your going with some SF guys. Just making sure I understand this right though, I'm assuming you're going to unify the uniforms right? And will all the figure's have similar headgear by the end of it? Somehow you managed to find one of each! haha I guess you're going to cast that helment on the rear security guy and maybe steal the mount/hardware from breacher guy number one and classic "delta force" looking guy number three? Same with 2 out of 4 sets of boots etc. I'm sure you were picking the four out based on collective equipment and the need for 4 bodies more than anythin. Again between you and Hans you know more military tactics and daily opperating conditions that I could ever hope to know short of joining up- but I'm guessing you'll also silence all the weapons?- save the SAW who, ideally wont be fending off anyone from the rear unless the already hit the fan anyway right? I know you know what you're doing and I think this is going to look awesome, just without the modifications and the box art I'm stuck thinking two spec ops guys packing light and two regulars packing heavy??- haha but my problem not yours

You're right on the money, Chris. I've got major plans for all the figures. Since McFarlane's only has a few figures, they make the most of all the Services. Hence the diversity of my group. I should just paint a big "S" on their chests and be done with it!

Here's some things that I've got in mind;

1) Yes, the SAW is getting trashed, and rebuilt for a later build ... NOT this one. I'll be casting a new M4 for him.

2) The packs are going as well. However, I might leave one in just to be the Medic's bag. Not sure yet.

3) The uniforms will be the hardest to makeover as the figures are vinyl (I think). If it looks like there's going to be too much work to do, I may have to cast the figure and work that way ... which defeats the purpose of getting these figures anyway ...

4) As far as making all four have the same the same helmets, boots, etc ... SF guys wear whatever the hell they want. See the color "stack" pic from my previous post. Sure they typically "look" very similar, some guys just love the ol' jungle boot over the new Oakleys.

5) ALL figures will receive a casted NVG mount and PVS-14.

6) All the weapons will be modified to "suit" the individual shooter ... same as the real world.

7) .... and no ... the dog can't come.

psstoff995 wrote:

now where's the fun in having a $2000 pair of NVG's if they don't have cool little readouts and cross hairs...

Actually, I think my PVS-7s went for around $7000...

psstoff995 wrote:

Now if you REALLY want to get the frame of mind into the scene- maybe try spraying on that little cross hair using a mask or something like that? (are those actually projected into real NVG viewports or is that Hollywood and popular myth??). I think it'd look cool as long as it's an accurate feature.

Myth. The cross hairs are not on the PVS-7s or the 14s. However, when teamed with a scope, if dailed in right. You can see the scope's hairs.

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Contrary to popular belief, NVGS don't work without light.  They only magnify the exsisting light.

Haha I found this out with the little sony camcorder my mom has. It has the little "nightview" mode or whatever they called it and basically the front end of the camera is just a large sized IR flashlight and it has a sensor that picks it back up. Kinda went over my head as to "why?" as the picture wasn't much better than if oh... I don't know, they used a real flashlight and regular light sensors... other than the somewhat disturbing "sneek up on people" potential it has. My brothers and I used it to play hide and go seek in the dark. And it was weird when the IR light would bounce off the backs of people's eyes because they'd glow all cat like... haha anyway-

I think the figure choices look pretty good as far as the equipment and the weapons assuming your going with some SF guys. Just making sure I understand this right though, I'm assuming you're going to unify the uniforms right? And will all the figure's have similar headgear by the end of it? Somehow you managed to find one of each! haha I guess you're going to cast that helment on the rear security guy and maybe steal the mount/hardware from breacher guy number one and classic "delta force" looking guy number three? Same with 2 out of 4 sets of boots etc. I'm sure you were picking the four out based on collective equipment and the need for 4 bodies more than anythin.

Again between you and Hans you know more military tactics and daily opperating conditions that I could ever hope to know short of joining up- but I'm guessing you'll also silence all the weapons?- save the SAW who, ideally wont be fending off anyone from the rear unless the already hit the fan anyway right? I know you know what you're doing and I think this is going to look awesome, just without the modifications and the box art I'm stuck thinking two spec ops guys packing light and two regulars packing heavy??- haha but my problem not yours

The one thing I will say though is pitch black raid + a dog with an IR stick on his back = glad I'm not a terrorist.

Nicely written, Hans ... You've got me thinking....

Here's what I've got in mind ... pretty much a combination btwn these two pics....

I decided to go with more than one figure b/c I really like the way the PEQ-4 beams fly all over the place. I've also narrowed it down to a couple of the McFarlane's Military figures. Of course, all will be hacked up and changed around a little.

I'm thinking this figure will be the guy, when modified, will be placing a charge on the door...

These two will be part of the stack ...

And this guy will be last in the stack for rear security...

Like I said, I'm looking at these figures "modified" in my head, not as they look now.

Let me know what you guys think.

I kinda had a hunch... now where's the fun in having a $2000 pair of NVG's if they don't have cool little readouts and cross hairs... although I always wondered what the point was as they were attached to one's face, not the weapon

Also always wondered how a 10x scope had the ability to zoom in on a guys face like it was a watermelon sittin 3" in front of you...

I love when someone misses a one handed pistol shot from a moving car at 30 feet in a movie and no one believes it.

there was actually DoD element that bred the damn bugs...

have to bring back the picture for this one

maybe try spraying on that little cross hair using a mask or something like that? (are those actually projected into real NVG viewports or is that Hollywood and popular myth??).

On NVGs, myth... Hollywood NVGs also work a LOT better than mine ever did... ( a little side-note: until very recently the cross-hairs and stadia lines you see in sights and scopes were made from particular spider's silk.  The strands are something like 60 times smaller that a human hair and there was actually DoD element that bred the damn bugs...)

modelchasm wrote:

Chris, per your earlier post, along with looking at more photos online taken through NVGs, I've also decide to recreate the darkening of the edges on the "viewer's" NVGs (the green film). The effect is caused simply by the way the NVGs work. Light is more concentrated on the center than on the outer edges. I think that this effect will also help bring the viewer's frame of mind into the scene. Nice job noticing this. I'll be contributing your thoughts and ideas into the write-up once it starts up. Thanks again. You have proven to be quite a reference asset.

No problem at all, very glad to help. That's kind of what I figured was going on as far as light collection and what not. I was a pretty apt photography student in high school and more or less mastered my SLR cameras (35mm and Digital- haha and by mastered I mean I actually got to knowing what all the crazy buttons and setting did ) and after two years of that- one at a college level AP credit, things like lighting and dark/light value jump out at me real strange. I'm just glad you knew what I was talking about, as when I posted that, I was getting waist deep into homework a little sidetracked and sometimes I find my thoughts work a little faster than my mental word processor and things go downhill from there.

Now if you REALLY want to get the frame of mind into the scene- maybe try spraying on that little cross hair using a mask or something like that? (are those actually projected into real NVG viewports or is that Hollywood and popular myth??). I think it'd look cool as long as it's an accurate feature.

Probably preaching to the chior but if you sprayed it on (and for that matter, however you choose to darken the edges)- I'd do it on one or both of the inner 3 green sheets- leaving the outerpost green sheet "OOB" so that it can help hide and spray texture and diffuse the effect. Although I'm sure you've come up with a better way than spray paint to produce this darkend effect?? haha

I'll look more deeply into the shadow box idea ... I just don't like my first thought of shutting it all in.

I understand your consternation at "closing in" a scene, but there are several important advantages to the shadow box that just can't be done with an "open" diorame...

First off, the controlled lighting.  There's just no other way to do it unless you have total control over the direct AND ambient light in the room.

Next, there's the advantage of controlling exactly what the viewer sees, and more importantly, what he/she doesn't see: Wires, bulbs, unplanned shadows, glare from reflections, etc (oh, and DUST)...

Then there's "ease" of construction.  You don't have to paint anything that won't be seen through the view port (unless you want to ). You can run wires down the outside of figure's arms and legs, use painted foil wiring in many places, hide fill lights and back-lights, etc...And as always, the advantage of Forced Perspective, something that just can't be done on an open dio with any fraction of a "God's-Eye View" of the scene... 

Overall, think of your scene as a movie set, shot on a sound stage, and you'll see why the shadow box is the ultimate diorama setting...  Looking at say, a dio of the 20mm FlaK gun blowing the paratroopers into chunky salsa attacking the Tiger in Saving Private Ryan (extreme example, I know but that's the point) would never be doable in an open scene unless (1) space wasn't an issue and you could do both in 1/35th scale and keep 'em 6 feet apart), and (2) there was a magical way of suspending parts in mid-air and hiding the power to a series of LED-lighted "bullet strikes" from the 20mm on the Tiger's armor.  Being able to hide suspension wires/rods, electrical wires, and lights in a shadow box, along with the forced perspective element shrinking the depth of your diorama down to 12-18 inches, makes for a relatively easily-built scene (easy as shadow boxes go, that is) and one that's easily transported...

Now, I ain't trying to tell you what to build... BUT...

Try mocking it up again with a cardboard box and "roof" and a few "Christmas lights" taped here and there before you rule out a shadow box... (BTW, don't forget that those lights come in green and blue, perfect for NVG and night scenes)

I'll look more deeply into the shadow box idea ... I just don't like my first thought of shutting it all in.

My preliminary thoughts are this; I'm thinking of using three figures in the dio, while the viewer looking through the "NVG" green film would "play" the fourth character, as there are usually four peronnel on a clearing team.

I didn't really use any references, such as books, to come up with the idea. Mostly just the forum (so a BIG thank you to everyone that's contributed) and the internet.

I did a real quick mock-up just before I left using my current figure build, cardboard walls to help close of the scene and the green film that I've got. I then used a green laser pointer to see what the lighting would look like. I'm counting on the overhead lighting, from whever room the model is in to help light the scene. Everything looked about right, but the laser pointer was a little strong. But, since I'm going to be using LEDs w/ FO, I think that it should be fine. Of course, once the build really gets underway, I'm sure that I'll be tweeking things quite a bit.

Chris, per your earlier post, along with looking at more photos online taken through NVGs, I've also decide to recreate the darkening of the edges on the "viewer's" NVGs (the green film). The effect is caused simply by the way the NVGs work. Light is more concentrated on the center than on the outer edges. I think that this effect will also help bring the viewer's frame of mind into the scene. Nice job noticing this. I'll be contributing your thoughts and ideas into the write-up once it starts up. Thanks again. You have proven to be quite a reference asset.

senojrn wrote:

Another is a father and son at the Custer Memorial at Little Big Horn at night, and they see the ghosts of Custer and his men making their last stand.  On that one, you can even see the stars too!

When I was talking about useing the bigger scale guys up front (this is still assuming my math is anywhere close to right and the Mcfarlane's are in the 1/11-1/12 range and your resin figures are 1/16), I had this ^ shadow box in mind. The whole thing if I remember correctly was very shallow, but the grave stones on the hill varied drastically in scale so if the hill was maybe 3" deep it looked more like 9" deep.

So because of the forced perspective of the shadow box- if you staggered the figures in bigger to smaller order, you could get away with more people in a smaller space that looked bigger. Sorry if that was a tongue twister for the mind, I had a hard time even thinking of how to explain it..

If you can get a copy of Sheperd Paine's 2nd Edition of How to Build Dioramas, there is a whole chapter dedicated to shadow boxes and he has some AMAZING stuff in there (some he did, some other modelers did).  A couple that stick out in my mind are: a scene from Napoleon's army retreating from Russia and there are some soldiers, huddled around a fire, attempting to warm themselves and in the background there are glowing eyes from wolves, preparing for the kill.  Another is a father and son at the Custer Memorial at Little Big Horn at night, and they see the ghosts of Custer and his men making their last stand.  On that one, you can even see the stars too!  And another similar one to that is from Shakespeare's MacBeth, where MacBeth sees the ghost of the king coming down the stairs (the ghost effect was done using mirrors).  They are all, as I said, AMAZING!! 

I think your idea for this is 1) FRIGGN' COOL!!  and 2) very do-able, just would require venturing into the shadow box side of modeling. 

The night effect would have to be done with lighting, painting, and the shadow box itself.  The idea for the IR beam made with fiber optic material is cool!   

Yeah, that makes the most sense.

I think if you're going to stick with your 1/16 scale figures, multiple people in the scene could get pretty big- I kind of had the impression you were going to put the one figure in and have him facing somewhat forward like he was clearing a room and the viewer was "coming in behind him" like the number 2 man in a stack.

I guess if you're used to working with 1/16 scale figures though and you have a few shelves of them, they're probably not as big as I'd think, I only have 3 1/16 scale figures on a shelf full of 1/35 guys, so I guess it'd be like you trying to imagine a room full of 1/9 scale guys or something haha

I'll check out your new thread, this whole idea of lighting and scale color was pretty cool, what books were you reading up on that delt with this? I might hafta get my hands on some.

Thanks for looking, Chris. There's just too many variables in there for me. I think that I'm just going to go with the FO lighting since I'm going to have to light the PEQ-4's laser beam anyway. I think in the end it'll be the simplest thing to do. That way, I'm not worried about reflecting paints, and BL colors, etc, etc. Lighting with FO will let me stay focused on building up the scene and getting the paints the way I want them to look under the green film.

I've been thinking today too .... if it's going to be a raid scene .... there's probably going to have to be 2-3 guys in there. Hmmm.... (see my next started thread... I'll keep this one going, talking about lighting and the film colors, etc.)

Thanks again, Chris.