Rhodesia............

To all concerned.  I AM NOT supporting the political aspects of Rhodesia or the former South African governments.  This is about the troopies who fought in the wars.  If you get a chance find and read the book Fireforce by Chris Cocks.  He didn't support the Rhodesian Gov, but fought anyway. For his home, and family.  I too doubt that reform is on the way without more blood shed.  Mugabe does not like to lose. Plain and simple.  Would the leaders of China and N.Korea just step aside if they lost in an election?  Heck no!  Also under Smith the Black population, had jobs, education, and more importantly food.  There was never this kind of chaos even during the war.  Do we all agree with our governments policies?  No. Will we fight to protect our homes, and way of life and familes?  YES! This is an information section,  as well as a modeling of Rhodesian troopies forum.  Not much modelling as of late, but am working on it! Keep the replies, and comments coming.  I will keep the info coming, and eventually some stuff on the models.  I am trying.  Really I am.

Let me get this straight, we cant feed our people but we can buy 70,000 tons of weapons? Bless the South Africans For seeing the light. The whole theater removes any credance from the "our problems are all your fault" thesis.

                                                            Mac

                                                  

I still doubt if reform is on the way (again, I hope I am wrong). This week China tried to ship Mugabe 70,000 tonnes of weapons to fully arm ZANU-PF. Thank goodness for South African dock workers refusing to unload it.

 http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gjD-luYajiJUIovASZ6lFnQvaMtg

how many black Africans suffered under the colonists and their racist regmimes' policies of minority rule?  How many of Africa's problems can be attributed to colonialism?

True many suffered. However, look at the things Smith did do for the black population with regards to education, training, healthcare and other such things. I believe far more have suffered under Mugabe or any other dictator in sub saharan dictator than under colonialism or men like Smith. Also, without colonialism, Africa would not have an infastructure or leaders, the majority of whom recieved thier education from universities created under colonialism.

Anyone think this forum should have a historical debate section??

   While I agree that modelling these lesser African conflicts is interesting and it is generally a forgotten period in military history, I think that it is important to keep things in perspective.  These were racist governments and it is a good thing that they disappeared.  Sure many people were negatively affected by their fall, but how many black Africans suffered under the colonists and their racist regmimes' policies of minority rule?  How many of Africa's problems can be attributed to colonialism?  I do respect the soldiers (both black and white) who fought in the Bushwar (who by the way were tough sons of a gun), but do so in as much as I respect the soldiers of the Confederate south, Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, NVA, etc. - as fellow soldiers.  

      Theirs (the governments of Rhodesia, South Africa, etc.) was a lost and ultimately immoral cause - the world did not abandon them, they abandoned the world and attempted to turn the clock back to a time that no longer existed.  These were an anachronism in a modern age and were doomed to fail.  Sure, Zimbabwe would have been better off without Mugabe but reform may soon be on the way as by all credible accounts Tsvangirai has won the election.  South Africa is not doing too bad now and with time Africa will get better...  By the way, I have a Canberra waiting in the stash to be built as a RhAF bird.

My two cents for whatever its worth...

Alot has happened in Zimbabwe since the March 29 elections.  Mugabe's party has still not released the presidential results, and now it is recounting all of the parlimentary seats it lost.  Saying there are irregularities in the ballots.  here is another post to try and keep you gents informed.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7360979.stm

 

There is alot of info in other areas as well, and I will try and post them.

Still no news on the presidential elections.  Mugabe is really pushing tis one.  Here's another link for more news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7342927.stm

It really comes as no surprise.  It may well come down to civil war to rid Mugabe of power.

Zimbabwe actually, and I think the good guys may actually win this one.

It's interesting, I do not at all think it's a lack of ability of black people to govern, just that the first generation of plutocrats following colonial rule have to be swept away.

It is 1845 Iowa time.  Still no news about the presidential elections.  Mdc, and Zanu-PF are running neck in neck in the parlimentary elections.  This is somewhat distressing.  Fears are rising that Mugabe will impose emergency laws to remain in power, and defraud the polls.  There are rumours that Mugabe has gone to Malaysia, also.  speculation is still running high on vote rigging.  Perhaps he, and his cronies have figured out a wy to rig it in their favor.  It could mean trouble.  Will keep you informed.

Zimbabwe opposition claims a landslide win amid speculation that Mugabe may flee

This is 1 hour old.

 

 By JANE FIELDS IT LOOKED like the moment millions of struggling Zimbabweans had dreamed of: the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) yesterday claimed it had won Zimbabwe's most crucial poll since independence in 1980.


Tendai Biti, the secretary of MDC, which is led by Morgan Tsvangirai, said: "The people's victory is on course. We have no doubt we have won this election."

The party said early results indicated the MDC had taken 67 per cent of the vote in 35 per cent of polling stations.

However, Zimbabweans were kept on tenterhooks after the state Zimbabwe Electoral Commission (ZEC) delayed announcing results, fuelling speculation President Robert Mugabe was preparing to flee.

In central Avondale, youths whistled and sang a version of Let it Be, although police had tried to ban MDC supporters from celebrating until official results were published.

Mr Mugabe, who has brought Zimbabwe to its knees in his 28 years in power, appeared to have lost in some of his traditional rural strongholds, according to party officials.

But George Charamba, a presidential spokesman, warned Mr Tsvangirai that premature victory claims would be seen as an attempted coup, adding: "We all know how coups are handled."

The MDC said it was keeping its own tally to prevent the altering of results by the authorities. Early unverified MDC results last night showed the party had won more than 100 parliamentary constituencies, with Mr Mugabe's ruling ZANU-PF taking just five. There are 210 constituencies in total.

Meanwhile, independent candidate Simba Makoni appeared to have polled around a third of votes in southern Matabeleland province.

George Chiweshe, the head of the ZEC, had to be rescued by security officers at a Harare hotel after he was mobbed by journalists and opposition supporters shouting: "We want results."

Mr Biti said: "The results are final in most constituencies but they are deliberately taking their time to announce them."

The ZEC chief said it had been a "more complicated election".

Meanwhile, in what sounded suspiciously like a show of defiance, state radio played a popular gospel song, which includes the lines: "All things are possible... right here in Zimbabwe, We're gonna make it, We shall overcome."

At Hatfield Primary School in southern Harare at midday, a riot policeman paused to study the result posted on the school door. He was a member of Mr Mugabe's feared Black Boots group, who have been used to beat and intimidate opposition supporters.

"It's good, eh?" he whispered, nodding to the results: Morgan Tsvangirai: 409, Robert Mugabe: less than 100. "This time, there's going to be change. We've been suffering too much."

However, excitement turned to impatience by afternoon. In previous polls, state radio has started broadcasting results from each constituency just hours after the close of voting.

"I think Morgan is winning," said "George", a caretaker in Avondale. "That's why Mugabe won't announce."

Unconfirmed reports late yesterday said soldiers had been pulled back to barracks.

"Just pray," said three women at a Hatfield polling station.

 

Zimbabwean forces patrol after poll result delayBy Cris ChinakaReuters
Sunday, March 30, 2008; 7:49 PM

 

HARARE (Reuters) - Riot police appeared on the streets of Zimbabwe's capital after a long delay to election results fuelled opposition suspicions that President Robert Mugabe may try and cling to power by rigging the vote.

Reuters journalists saw the riot police in Harare late on Sunday and residents in outlying poor townships said they had seen stepped up patrols by security forces.

"We have been told to stay indoors," said a resident in the eastern suburb of Tafara, declining to be named.

Mugabe, 84, faced the biggest challenge of his 28-year-rule in Saturday's election because of Zimbabwe's economic collapse and a two-pronged opposition attack that put him under unprecedented political pressure.

The opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) led by Morgan Tsvangirai said it had won an overwhelming victory, but electoral officials said no official results would be released until 6 a.m. (0400 GMT) on Monday, 35 hours after polls closed.

Results in past votes have begun emerging soon afterwards.

The chairman of Zimbabwe's electoral commission, George Chiweshe, said the delay was caused by the complexity of holding presidential, parliamentary and local polls together for the first time, and the need to verify results meticulously.

All results would be announced on Monday, he told reporters.

"Mugabe has lost the election. Everyone knows no one voted for Mugabe, but they are now trying to cook up a result in his favor, " said MDC Secretary-General Tendai Biti.

Zimbabwe is suffering from the world's highest inflation rate of more than 100,000 percent, chronic shortages of food and fuel, and an HIV/AIDS epidemic that has contributed to a steep decline in life expectancy.

Two South African members of a regional observer mission said the delay in announcing the election results "underscores the fear that vote-rigging is taking place."

They refused to sign a positive preliminary report on the poll by the Southern African Development Community (SADC) and said there was evidence of "widespread and convincing" MDC wins.

Zimbabwean forces patrol after poll result delay

"COUP ATTEMPT"

Mugabe's government warned the opposition it would regard victory claims as a coup attempt. The president, in power since independence from Britain, accuses the West of sabotaging Zimbabwe's economy and rejects vote-rigging allegations.

SADC mission chairman Jose Marcos Barrica of Angola told reporters through an interpreter the election "has been a peaceful and credible expression of the will of the people."

Mugabe is being challenged by veteran rival Tsvangirai and former finance minister and ruling ZANU-PF party official Simba Makoni. Both accuse the former guerrilla leader of wrecking a once prosperous economy and reducing the population to misery.

Although the odds seem stacked against Mugabe, analysts believe his iron grip on the country and backing from the armed forces will enable him to declare victory.

Barrica expressed concern about the voters roll, opposition access to the media and statements by the heads of security forces who had said they would not accept an opposition victory.

But he said: "We saw that the basic conditions for a free and fair election were there."

The dissenting SADC mission members, who belong to South Africa's opposition Democratic Alliance, said in a statement: "It is impossible for this deeply flawed electoral process to be viewed as a credible expression of the will of the people."

The SADC, which critics say has been too soft on Mugabe, has unsuccessfully tried to mediate an end to Zimbabwe's crisis, which has turned a quarter of the population into refugees.

Zimbabwe's security forces, which have thrown their weight firmly behind Mugabe, said before the election they would not allow a victory declaration before counting was complete.

Government spokesman George Charamba warned the opposition against such claims. "It is called a coup d'etat and we all know how coups are handled," he told the state-owned Sunday Mail.

Residents in the eastern opposition stronghold of Manicaland said riot police stopped a victory demonstration by about 200 MDC supporters on Sunday. There was no violence, they said.

The United States said it was worried by the conduct of the election and the absence of most international observers.

"The Mugabe regime is a disgrace to the people of Zimbabwe and a disgrace to southern Africa and to the continent of Africa as a whole," U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told reporters during a visit to Jerusalem.

(Additional reporting by MacDonald Dzirutwe, Stella Mapenzauswa, Nelson Banya, Muchena Zigomo and Arshad Mohammed in Jerusalem)

(Writing by Barry Moody)

Tension in Zimbabwe as opposition claims win

By Alec Russell, Southern Africa Correspondent

Published: March 29 2008 19:42 | Last updated: March 30 2008 18:16

 

Zimbabwe's president Robert Mugabe and the ruling Zanu-PF party were Sunday night locked in a stand-off with the country's main opposition after the Movement for Democratic Change claimed victory in the weekend's bitterly contested presidential and parliamentary elections.

It is unknown how Mr Mugabe and his allies will react to what looks like a resounding defeat. It was announced at midnight Sunday night that the results would start to be published at 6am Monday.

 

The government and election authorities condemned the opposition for declaring victory before the official count was released.

Diplomats and election observers expressed mounting concern that Zanu-PF was trying to rig the election as the state-appointed Zimbabwe Election Commission had not released any results more than 24 hours after the polls closed. But Judge George Chiweshe, ZEC chairman, told state television that all results would be released by the end of Monday. "It's an involving and laborious process," he said.

In an implicit warning to the MDC, he added: "The commission would like to reiterate that it and it alone is the sole legitimate source of all results."

Riot police were reported to be patrolling the streets of Zimbabwe's capital Sunday night and residents were told to stay indoors.

Tendai Biti, secretary-general of the main wing of the MDC, earlier said returns from just over a third of polling stations gave party leader Morgan Tsvangirai 67 per cent of the vote.

"We've won this election," Mr Tsvangirai told a pre-dawn press conference in Harare. "In our view the trend is irreversible."

But he said he was concerned that Zanu-PF officials might try to skew the results in their favour - as they are widely accused of having done in the last presidential poll in 2002. MDC insiders said Sunday night that they had opened talks with elements in the security forces in an attempt to prevent a showdown.

Mark Malloch Brown, minister for Africa, said: "It's quite clear President Mugabe has lost despite massive pre-election day cheatingt hat had been organised and structured. If that is the case we will work vigorously with the international community to make sure the people's will prevails."

Independent observers told the FT their tally of the official results posted outside ballot stations gave Mr Tsvangirai a 55 per cent majority, with the 84-year-old president on 36 per cent.

The results were from two-thirds of the polling stations, including almost 90 per cent from urban areas, traditional opposition strongholds, and 42 per cent from rural areas, the base of Zanu's PF's support, the observers said.

Saturday's elections have been the most bitterly contested in the 28 years since Zimbabwe won independence. Mr Mugabe's challengers, Mr Tsvangirai and Simba Makoni, a former finance minister, sought to capitalise on the implosion of the economy and collapse of public services.

With inflation running between 100,000 and 400,000 per cent there is a palpable sense of desperation across the country. But in a reflection of the extreme delicacy of the situation, on the eve of the vote, the chiefs of the security forces said they would not take orders from Mr Mugabe's challengers if they won the poll.

Noel Kututwa, the chairman of the Zimbabwe Election Support Network, an independent monitoring group, called on ZEC to issue the votes immediately. "The delay is fuelling speculation that there is something going on," he said.

As he voted, Mr Mugabe said he was interested only in a free and fair election. "We do not rig elections. We have that sense of honesty. I cannot sleep with my conscience if I have cheated in elections," he said.

The winner needs more than 50 per cent to avoid a run-off.

 

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2008-03-30T221954Z_01_L28808838_RTRUKOC_0_US-ZIMBABWE-ELECTION.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-2

Here is the Reuters report with a tool bar on the left for other info.

1730 Iowa Time.  Results will be announced at 0400 GMT.  Outside observers, are worried that no initial results have been relelased.  "This is where something goes wrong."  Remarked Noel Ututwa.  According to polling station counts so far, the MDC has won 67% of the votes, and it only takes 50% to win the presidency.  Many ZANU-PF officials, have lost in the polls to.  It is worried that where the "fix" will take place is in the rural districts, where Mugabe has always had the most support.  According to reports prior to election, he was losing most of the support in these areas, because of broken promises, and the state of the economy.  Will keep you informed of official results.

 

On a modeling note, I have 3 RLI troopie assembled, but no paint.  Nee one more, then on with the gear, and weapons.  Paint to be applied then.  I am looking to scratch a "Crocodile APC for them.  This could take awhile. 

0530 Iowa time.  According to MDC officials, they have won the election from early returns.  Polling stations that have completed their counts show that there is a good lead for the MDC Officials, who have run for the president, and other high office.  Will have more information later on today.

It is now 0600 in Iowa.  Polling in Zimbabwe, has been going on for 6 hours.  Good sign.  Very few police, and army seen any where.  There are reports, that Zanu-PF supporters, are being watched at the polling stations, and that it is being made sure, "They vote for the proper candidate."  i.e. Mugabe.  Bad sign.  So far very low voter turnout.  This means if the voters don't show like was anticipated, it will be easy to rig the election.  There have been complaints made, but all very minor.  Observers, and electorial officials, are not helping as was their, jobs, and there are reports, that registered voters, are being turned away, as "Aliens".  Will pass on more info later, as reports come in.

It is 12:10, or 0010 in the morning here in Iowa.  The polls in Zimbabwe opened 10 minutes ago.  Everyone is saying Mugabe will win regardless of the voting outcome.  The army is in the streets, and police in ALL polling stations, to "assist"  people with their vote.  The Army, and all military forces are on high alert, and have amde a joint statement, that all people are to go imediatly home after casting their vote, and not stay at the stations, to await the election out come.  Their is a bright side in all of this.  The my high ranking officers in the army back one of the opposition members running for president.  They may not allow Mugabe to fix the ballots again.  One funny thing I read was that 8000 people were registered in a town that only had 300 people in it and the surrounding area.  You just have to admire the free and fair voting process of the Mugabe government.

Will keep you informed through out the night, as news comes in from Zim, London, and my other sources.

Keep the faith!  Cheers to you all!

China, North Korea, and othe "Select" African nations are invited to view the election process

Since they were the ones who were vital to Mugabe gaining power in the first place, it is not surprising that they will do thier best to allow him to remain in power. Besides, if the opposition did by some miracle win, amidst the vote rigging which will take place, the army is just waiting for an excuse for a crack down. I dont think much will change after the voting tomorrow, although hopefully I'm wrong.

On another note, I thought Isreal were one of the biggest suppliers of armaments to South Africa? So would make sense if SADF had a fair bit of Israeli equipment.

The build sounds rather daunting , still would be great to see an RLI dio, as I dont think any actually exist 

On a further note the infaltion in Zimbabwe is at 1000,528% or something like that.  Even with the depleted dollar, one, yea one US dollar bill is the equal to 2 BILLION Zimbabwe dollars!!  2 million Zim-D's wont even get you a meal at a fast food place. 

I am still working on the RLI Troopies.  Finding the older figure kits, is somewhat daunting.  Progress is very slow, and I am not even going to start thinking about casting anything in resin, until I get the figures down right.  Alot of trail and error.  I do mean ALOT!  Wish I had better news, at this time, but alas I do not.  Keep building. 

On another note.  I have figured out that Israeli tanker helmets, are really close to the ones the SADF/SANDF use to crew their armor.  Now my vehicles will have crews!!!!  I just have to buy a butt load of Israeli armor crew sets!  Dont ask how much a butt load is.  I have no idea, but from what I understand it is alot.  Depending on the size of the backside in question that is.  TTFN! 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7316727.stm   

He is the newest post on the Rhodesian/Zimbo front.  The elections for President are on Saturday.  No Western officials are invited to observe, but officials from China, North Korea, and othe "Select" African nations are invited to view the election process, and make sure it is "fair".  Some unprecedented things have happened.  Opposition candidates have been allowed to hold rallies, and have nfull colr adds in the state run papers.  People are mad, and there are fears of Kenyan style violence, or anothewr civil war if the election is rigged.  The army commanders have stated that they will not allow the opposition to take power even if they win the elections.  Sounds free and fair to me.  Lets hope that the oppositon wins, and Mugabe finds his way to the Hague to stand trail.  That is after all his greatest fear.

Lets get this up nd running again.  I have been remiss in providing much info for those interested.  Here we go.  the elections are coming yp in Zim, and you will never guess what is happening.  there is corruption, and violent threats from the ruling party,(ZANU-PF) towards the population!  I know that I am as shocked as you all.  Surely this would never take place in the free country under Mugabe!  Oh and the inflation is way way up there too.  Surprises are all around us.  China is sending food aid!!! 

Here is a link for anyone interested.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdSf7O-zCPU&feature=related

and another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPKGZreusoQ&feature=related

Things are going to change in the next uear.  I just have this funny feeling.  Maybe they wont, but something is going to happen.  Will be around with more troopie info in the near future. 

 

Cheers!

Agreed, love or hate him or his policies, he was a great man and a true statesman. Shame he saw what he and so many had worked for, torn apart.

It is a sad day indeed.  R.I.P.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7104552.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1136865.stm

http://www.voanews.com/english/africa/zimbabwe/   You can listen to the latest news of the country here.

More to follow later.  I will keep this post up to keep you informed with history, news and background info.  Ray

I am glad I could help.  People should be made aware of the conflicts on that continent.  It is horrible and sad.  Many great nations used to exsist, and are now nations of starving, people, who cry out for aid from the rest of the world, and when it gets there, the rulers of the country keep it for themselves, and sell it to fill there pockets, and scream the world is letting them die, and it is all our fault they are in such bad shape.   Let me know what your teacher thinks.  Have them read the forum.  If they have any questions, I will try and answer them.  I do it at my sons school periodoically.  Keep coming back.

Hey steelrudi, I just thought Id let you know that I really enjoyed reading this post of yours. Im a young Canadian and really never new much about the specific conflicts in Africa till recently after watching the movie Blood Diamond. Ive always wanted to go to Africa though. I would always hear about child soldiers and civil wars and poverty and just felt the urge to wanna go and do something.

I think after reading this and thinking about the movie Blood Diamond has sparked my interest in this subject. Im actually hoping on going to Africa sometime with the African Childrens Choir, which btw I saw tonight. Im planning on reading more and studying some of this. Ill have to bring it up with my history teacher and see if we are discussing this. There just seems to be so much to this conflict though and from just getting into it there is a lot to take in. 

Im really glad you posted this here though, thanks. 

I know this isn't the place for politics, and I am not really being political.  I dont like the people in power in Zimbabwe, and I believe that telling the whole story helps in modeling the Genre.  Think of the ahguish of the troopie who fought, and what they were fighting for, and you can paint/model the resolve in their stances and faces.  It does help for that extra little bit.

Imagine that Mugabe is going to force foriegn owned countries to give up 51% of there shares to Zimbabwe.  That man knows no shame.  Also it is Pres. Bush, and PM blairs fault what is happening in Zimbabwe. Yeah Right!   Wow I want to take control of a country, destroy it and blame someone else so I can wear a halo in Hell when I die.  That guy is unbelievable! 

This is an addition.  Once again the powers that be have caved to Mugabe.  They are lifting the travel ban on him ansd his people so he may attend a human rights, and poverty get together in Portugal.  Isn't that like inviting Hitler to a Bar Mitzva?

Unbeleivable!

The inflation has dropped to around 6500%.  If you want news on Africa go to

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/default.stm  You can also listen to their broadcast.  It isn't ratings based like here in the States.

Well I think one fact speaks volumes, Rhodesia fed a good part of Africa, now as Zimbabwe the nation can't even feed its own people.

You could use US style canteens, they look good to me.  My friend has been profusely thanked.  He sends his regards.  So do I.  Get some Games Workshop green stuff to make the butt packs, and side packs.  You can mold them to fit the webbing and other gear better.  Keep the tools you use wet though or it will stick to the sculpting tool. 

You know , reading about Rhodesia, and then about Zimbabwe, are like day and night.  Alot of the terrs, who fought for  Nkomo, and Mugabe have left the country because they were all lied to.  ZANU-PF, and ZIPRA tried to merge at one time, but Mugabe didn't like the way his people weren't getting all the top spots in the Govt.  He then started purges, and intimidation to get his people into power behind him.  They took over white farms,(By force in most cases) and gave them to high ranking govt officials, and now they sit idle because they dont know how to farm well.  They just wanted them, because the whites had them.  Now you see the policies at work.  7653% inflation and still growing, 80% un-employment rate, and still growing, 3-5000 people a day crossing into South Africa, for food, and jobs, it just goes on and on.  Did you hear of this during the days of Rhodesia?  No!!!  You only heard how the whites were repressing the blacks from there rights to own the land the whites had, and their freedoms.  You see what that has got them.  I am far from being racist, and this statemnet may sound that way, but it is true.  Look at the facts.  they speak for themselves.  A very prosperous country, turnd into a S%&#hole.  I enjoy being provoked by the way.

 

Sorry, I was just being controversial, antagonistic and provoke debate . Too true to what you said.

I'd love to oneday try to scrachbuild some of the old RLI vehicles that they bascially scratchbuilt for real.

BOOO-YA! SST

 

 haha, that made me chuckle I will keep my left-wing grumblings to myself in future

I am working on some RLI troopies, circa 1978 3 Commando Fire Force.  It will be a Stick (4 troops) in a maize field.  I don't think it matters about who was right and who was wrong at this time.  The crimes being commited now by Mugabe are 10000 times worse than the oppression the blacks suffered during UDI.  No govt, is perfect, but his makes me think of Stalin, Hitler, and Kim il sung and this Git kim jong il. (Who by the way Mugabe uses for military training and weapons)  At least under Ian Smith, most if not all of the Blacks had jobs, food, and were employed.  Things were better then.  Even if it wasn't the most kosher of governments.  Oh, and expect a win by Mugabe in the March 2008 elections.  What a surprise that will be.  NOT!!!!!!!!