Rhodesia............

Ray, I'm just curious as to your affinity for this topic; quite an unusual one to be sure. Just wondering if you saw action there or....???

It is a topic from histroy that is often "left out in the Rain", so to speak.  I saw action while in the Marines, but had/have many friends from South Africa, and the fromer Rhodesian State.  A couple were in the Marines with me, and they taught me many invaluable skills that let me be here today.  I have done other things as well, but that is another story.  As many, many people do WW2 German, or other fields, I do alot of African Wars.  Tell me, how mush do people really know about them? unless you were there, or want to widen your knowledge base.  I did almost move to South Africa, but I was talked out of it by my family.  I also do modern armor if you have noticed.  I did WW2 long ago, and got burnt out on it.  Maybe some day I will return to it.  Thank You for posting.  I always enjoy your comments. 

Cool, steelrudi! That must be quite an interesting circle of friends!

Can't say I have any German WWII veterans friends, but I do know quite a few sons-n-daughters of them; one guy I know in particular is he son of a Das Reich officer-=he's shown me his Dad's photo album, clothes, ID tag...stuff to salivate over, and very wierd to behold. It's kinda like this stuff exists only in pics and plastic pieces for me, and to see it for real and to associate it with a real person gave me goosebumps!

Anyway, I'll be really interested in your project here; it'll be something way different than we're used to seeing!  

I knew two German soldiers.  Sadly they have both left this world.  One worked at the grain elevator in the town I grew up in, and showed me photos of him and his buddies during the war.  He fought the Russians, and talked very little about the whole war.  The other was a pilot.  Cant remember if it was 109's or stuka's , but he fought in France and on the Eastern Front.  They were very nice men, and it was a pleasure to know them.  My father spoke German, so they kind of warmed to our family as a whole.  I also know a gentleman who was in the concentration camps.  His name is Max, and I haven't seen him fro many years.  He is probably gone also. It is sad how the living voice of history has to leave us.  I do know the goosebump thing very well too.  It can be eerie at times. 

Sorry to hear of the loss of your friends! I hope they live long in your memories!

One of my Lodge Brothers flew Butcher Birds in WWII.  He rarely talked about it, but the few stories I have heard were hair-raising!  Sadly, he, too, has joined Heaven's Air Force.

This thread has definately piqued my interest in African conflicts. Thank you for the enlightenment. Never thought too much about that particular area of the world other than the Boer Wars.

SST

I am glad!  If I can be of any help to you, let me know.  I will be more than willing to assist you, if I can.  If I dont have the info, I usually know someone who will.

I'm one of those few.    I love the "forgotten battlefields" of Africa, from the Belgian Congo to the SADF.  I have a very good friend who served in the SADF, in one of the Commandos, so he sorta got to "pick and choose" his assignments.  I need to pester him and find out what sort of pics he has, if Katrina didn't wipe them out.  I also have friends who were missionaries in Rhodesia when it became Zambia.  They still go just a little pale even today when the subject is mentioned.

 

Finding references isn't nearly as easy as is info on the minutia of units in WWII.  I spent the majority of today going thru some 2 dozen + back-iossues of Soldier of FOrtune and similar mag's from the late 80's and early 90's.  I found some decent references as well as a diorama project (oddly, it comes from an article with no pics at all!).  The equipment is what originally caught me - the Eland family, the Ratels, Olifants, and real by-god HORSES!  In modern combat!

 

Anyone who hangs it all out there on that thin line to defend their homes and neighbors deserves to have their exploits remembered.  Too many people respond to their country's call and never make it home again.  And now - some of these folk don't even have their home.

 

 

Question:  What would you do if you fought for your country, where you were born and raised, won every battle your forces ever fought, and then were kicked out by elections, brought on by sanctions impossed on your country?  Then what would you do if you saw how your country was destroyed by it's new leaders, and no one would come forward to oust said government?  Look at Zimbabwe, as it was once Rhodesia, and the most prosperous nation in Africa even under sanctions.  Look at what is happening there.  I am not saying there should be a coup, I am asking how would you feel?  This is why I model these areas of history.  So they are not forgotten.

steelrudi wrote:

Question:  What would you do if you fought for your country, where you were born and raised, won every battle your forces ever fought, and then were kicked out by elections, brought on by sanctions impossed on your country?  Then what would you do if you saw how your country was destroyed by it's new leaders, and no one would come forward to oust said government?  Look at Zimbabwe, as it was once Rhodesia, and the most prosperous nation in Africa even under sanctions.  Look at what is happening there.  I am not saying there should be a coup, I am asking how would you feel?  This is why I model these areas of history.  So they are not forgotten.

Well put...

I also find the African wars interesting, rather depressing too, when you see what has happend to many African nations.

I've been lucky enough to get the various Osprey African wars books (in fact I've ended up with 2 copies of the Rhodesia book) and have read a bit about WW1 in Africa.

Unfortunately the model companies don't seem to share the interest, the SADF has unique vehicles every bit as interesting as the Israeli's but there are very few kits and those are mostly obscure resin kits.

I'd love to see some 1/35 kits of a Rooikat, Buffel, Ratel etc. Even a mod of a common vehicle like the Olifant would be welcome. Some technical kits would be nice too, although those are not unique to Africa. Some of the small naval vessels involved in WW1 would be nice to see as well.

See "Blood Diamond" with Leonardo DiCaprio, it is about that period and the Rhodesian wars I think. Also "Last King of Scotland" with Forrest Wittaker, about Idi Amin. Horrible, just Horrible! Both are very good movies! And also see "The Constant Gardener" with Rachael Weiss for a very interesting take on the profiteering from those conflicts.

steelrudi wrote:

Question:  What would you do if ... how would you feel?  This is why I model these areas of history.  So they are not forgotten.

 

Absolutely and utterly betrayed by the entire planet.  Which is a darned fine reason to model them - to honor their sacrifice and make sure they are never forgotten.

Doog is partially correct.  It takes place in 1999.  It is after the Rhodesian Bushwar, and after the government change in South Africa.  Danny Archer was born in Rhodesia, and if you look when he is in jail, he has a tatoo on his upper right arm of a cape buffalo.  That is the symbol of 32 Battalion.  Also known as the "Terrible Ones".  The other movies I have not yet seen.  If you wish to know about some of the other units of Rhodesia, and the SADF go to Youtube, and type in those respective titles.  A lot will come up.  About being betrayed by the whole world you are close.  The Carter Administration had alot to do with it as well as Ms Thatcher of britian, and of course one that you never ever hear of.  A country who values it nuetrality, and sided with the Zipra, and Zanu, to over throw the Rhodesian Govt.  Sweden!!!!!!!!  Yes they supplied vast amounts of cash to support the rebel groups.  Need to know more let me know.

 When I was in Iraq during the beginning of the current war there, I saw a number of different vehicles used by the US but designed and built in SA, for IED protection etc.

Also, once upon a time (in the early 90s) I was part of an elite formation you could say, and we met with South African guys a couple of times. Friendly bunch, laughed a lot, but without a doubt among the finest soldiers I've ever seen. And I've seen a lot. These guys were fast-moving, even on foot, and they carried huge loads like it was nothing. Their professionalism, tactical proficiency and understanding of the battlefield was second to none. And like the IDF, I like their version of the warrior ethos - very similar to some of our guys, maybe the RGR companies of the 1970s or the original SF operating groups circa 1965.

But I don't have a clue about which army fought where in the bushwars. I'm pretty well up to speed on the corruption that followed, but as for as which group did what and for whom, I'm lost.

What are you interested in knowing about hte wars?  I can help some, and I have some friends who were there, if I don't know the answer.  I used to run around with some pretty interesting people myself.  It's funny what you learn about people, when you fight beside them.

I have been sitting with a friend of mine who is from Rhodesia, and drinking of course.  It is what they used to call a "Hooley".  We sat and listened to the Songs which I have, and drank some more.  I owe this man my life.  He has no pictures to offer to our cause, but he does have knowledge of what happened, and what was worn.  How, when and where.  I know what the A63 looked like, and the way the webbing was worn.  I will share if you desire.  Now I need sleep.  Good night troopies.   

well...?

 

I'm WAITING!!

Some guys wore their webbing with harnesses, and some without.  the placement of canteens was a haphazard affair going where they were easy to get, but still out of the way.  Most FF members didn't carry packs, except for those carrying radios, and most opted for the side pouch which could be carried on their webbing.  Commie ammo pouches were favored by some,across the chest, and others took extra pouches and put them to either side of their bodies on their web belts.  Almost everyone carried a butt pack.   Here is what my friend had on his webbing.  Start at the center clasp, and go right as you are looking at it.  It would be to the troopers left.  Clasp, Ammo pouch, holster, side pack, canteen, butt pack, canteen, a63 radio pouch, ammo pouch.  He also had a brit type harness attached to it to support the weight. He also wore a 5 pouch chi-com ammo vest.  Selous Scouts wore these often.  Main weapon was an FN FAL, and carried a 9mm pistol.  Cross draw holster on the left side of his webbing. Ammo pouches were brit type. 

The a63 was always in a pouch or pack and looked similar to the PRC-75.  make a pack/pouch, put an antenae coming out of it on one side, and a pioe cord(Spiral type) out the other, and you have an A63! 

Make your own configuration, using brit, russian and chi-com webbing, toss in very little US stuff, and you should be okay with your webbing problems.  Hope this helps.

Rhodesia is a topic I have been studying for some months now and have a personal connection with. My great-grandfather was one of the original pioneers with Rhodes and my father and his brothers all fought in the Bush War. I would be intrigued to see any models made on this area, as the war was simply so tragic and people should see and learn more about it.
The common belief amongst many old Rhodesians is that the war was fought simply to preserve the prosperity of Rhodesia from the communist supported guerrillas of ZANLA and ZIPRA, is somewhat misguided. The black population had no representation and were ruled by a white minority, with a paternalistic view that their black citizens were not ready for any form of power or influence. The guerrilla's fought for black representation in a prosperous country that both ignored and kept many of them oppressed.
I think many young Rhodesians fought and died for a society caught in a British Blitz spirit, whilst the world changed around them. Still, no matter how bad Rhodesia may been, nothing can compare to the suffering of the people now. I think what the Rhodesian forces and many of the guerillas fought for has now been destroyed.

Feeder wrote:

The common belief amongst many old Rhodesians is that the war was fought simply to preserve the prosperity of Rhodesia from the communist supported guerrillas of ZANLA and ZIPRA, is somewhat misguided. The black population had no representation and were ruled by a white minority, with a paternalistic view that their black citizens were not ready for any form of power or influence. The guerrilla's fought for black representation in a prosperous country that both ignored and kept many of them oppressed.

 

And seeing the results 25+ years later, ya gotta wonder who was right... 

Well, the canteens I've seen in pics look US-made.    Excellent stuff!  Thank your friend profusely for me!  I most assuredly appreciate his taking the time to pass along this sort of trivia.

Outlands wrote:

Feeder wrote: The common belief amongst many old Rhodesians is that the war was fought simply to preserve the prosperity of Rhodesia from the communist supported guerrillas of ZANLA and ZIPRA, is somewhat misguided. The black population had no representation and were ruled by a white minority, with a paternalistic view that their black citizens were not ready for any form of power or influence. The guerrilla's fought for black representation in a prosperous country that both ignored and kept many of them oppressed.   And seeing the results 25+ years later, ya gotta wonder who was right...

BOOO-YA!

SST

I am working on some RLI troopies, circa 1978 3 Commando Fire Force.  It will be a Stick (4 troops) in a maize field.  I don't think it matters about who was right and who was wrong at this time.  The crimes being commited now by Mugabe are 10000 times worse than the oppression the blacks suffered during UDI.  No govt, is perfect, but his makes me think of Stalin, Hitler, and Kim il sung and this Git kim jong il. (Who by the way Mugabe uses for military training and weapons)  At least under Ian Smith, most if not all of the Blacks had jobs, food, and were employed.  Things were better then.  Even if it wasn't the most kosher of governments.  Oh, and expect a win by Mugabe in the March 2008 elections.  What a surprise that will be.  NOT!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, I was just being controversial, antagonistic and provoke debate . Too true to what you said.

I'd love to oneday try to scrachbuild some of the old RLI vehicles that they bascially scratchbuilt for real.

BOOO-YA! SST

 

 haha, that made me chuckle I will keep my left-wing grumblings to myself in future

You know , reading about Rhodesia, and then about Zimbabwe, are like day and night.  Alot of the terrs, who fought for  Nkomo, and Mugabe have left the country because they were all lied to.  ZANU-PF, and ZIPRA tried to merge at one time, but Mugabe didn't like the way his people weren't getting all the top spots in the Govt.  He then started purges, and intimidation to get his people into power behind him.  They took over white farms,(By force in most cases) and gave them to high ranking govt officials, and now they sit idle because they dont know how to farm well.  They just wanted them, because the whites had them.  Now you see the policies at work.  7653% inflation and still growing, 80% un-employment rate, and still growing, 3-5000 people a day crossing into South Africa, for food, and jobs, it just goes on and on.  Did you hear of this during the days of Rhodesia?  No!!!  You only heard how the whites were repressing the blacks from there rights to own the land the whites had, and their freedoms.  You see what that has got them.  I am far from being racist, and this statemnet may sound that way, but it is true.  Look at the facts.  they speak for themselves.  A very prosperous country, turnd into a S%&#hole.  I enjoy being provoked by the way.

You could use US style canteens, they look good to me.  My friend has been profusely thanked.  He sends his regards.  So do I.  Get some Games Workshop green stuff to make the butt packs, and side packs.  You can mold them to fit the webbing and other gear better.  Keep the tools you use wet though or it will stick to the sculpting tool. 

Well I think one fact speaks volumes, Rhodesia fed a good part of Africa, now as Zimbabwe the nation can't even feed its own people.