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Hipper vs Glowworm...

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Hipper vs Glowworm...
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 29, 2008 10:23 AM

Having a hard time finding the Hipper in 1/700th scale...want to do a waterline dio of Hipper's engagement w/ Glowwworm...Anyone know of where I can find a Hipper?...I did luck out and find a 1/700 Glowworm at PacificFront Hobbies:

British Destroyer HMS Glowworm 1940

Never have seen or heard of this company....anyone have any experience with it??? It seems a little pricey at $34...

  • Member since
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  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, September 29, 2008 10:55 AM

http://www.hp-models.com/index.php?module=pncommerce&func=itemview&ItemID=76

HP Models of Germany makes a Scheer in 1:700. 

B-Resina kits, as well as HP Models kits, are generally well done with few it any surface bubbles.   The small parts are cast on a wafer from which thge parts must be sanded out of.  Neither B-Resina nor HP Models kits come with photoetch.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 29, 2008 11:06 AM
 EdGrune wrote:

http://www.hp-models.com/index.php?module=pncommerce&func=itemview&ItemID=76

HP Models of Germany makes a Scheer in 1:700. 

B-Resina kits, as well as HP Models kits, are generally well done with few it any surface bubbles.   The small parts are cast on a wafer from which thge parts must be sanded out of.  Neither B-Resina nor HP Models kits come with photoetch.

Thanks, I found a nice Tamiya kit of a "E" class destroyer that is probably much nicer and cheaper...are their MAJOR differences in the two classes??? Here is the "E":

 TAM31909 British E Class Destroyer #TAM31909

  • Member since
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  • From: Mansfield, TX
Posted by EdGrune on Monday, September 29, 2008 11:33 AM

The E/F classes were a class ahead of the RN G/H classes.   E's were built in the 1932-34 timeframe.  G's were 1935-39.

Basically the E was 20 ft (+/-) longer than a G and was armed with 5-4.7" QF mounts versus the 4 in the G.   Otherwise the secondary & torpedo armament was the same (layout may differ - as it often does even within ships of the same class).  

E's displaced about 150 tons more 1495 vs 1350 T.

Wiki is your friend

In this instance the resin may be nicer, since it is capable of capturing the some of the details such as the gun shields the thinness which are beyond the limits of injection technology

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, September 29, 2008 11:57 AM

Cool...I ordered a Tamiya Prinz Eugen (Same class as the Hipper) and a PE set to go w/ it...I think I'll take your advice and spring for the Glowworm, especially since I found out there is an AM PE set you can get for it...

...now if I can only find what paint measures these two were in at the time of their engagement???

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Monday, September 29, 2008 4:55 PM

the Prinz Eugen is somewhat different from hipper even tho of same class of ships.

Prinz Eugen specs link. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/heavycruiser/prinzeugen/tech.html

Admiral Hipper specs link. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/heavycruiser/admiralhipper/tech.html

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:41 AM
 ddp59 wrote:

the Prinz Eugen is somewhat different from hipper even tho of same class of ships.

Prinz Eugen specs link. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/heavycruiser/prinzeugen/tech.html

Admiral Hipper specs link. http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/heavycruiser/admiralhipper/tech.html

That wouldn't be noticable in a waterline dio would it???
  • Member since
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  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:00 PM

One of the biggest differences between Prinz Eugen and Hipper involves the shape of the bows.  Prinz Eugen has a fully curved swan bow like Bismarck, while Hipper's bow is a simple straight-raked bow (sort of like that seen on a variety of British cruisers).  As I recall, Blucher's bow was a originally a plumb bow (and so was Hippers), but I'm not sure if it was subsequently altered as was Hippers.......

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 4, 2008 10:54 AM

Found what might be a great ref for the measures worn by both ships during the famous engagement for my dio, providing the artist had his facts correct:

  • Member since
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  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Saturday, October 4, 2008 9:18 PM

I dunno, Manstein, paintings are great for giving you the "feel" of an event/place/landscape, but it can only be the artist's impression of that moment, and every artist is different.

One tiny example, most of the paintings of the Doolittle Raiders taking off from the Hornet show the propellers with yellow tips - which was the USAAF standard at that time. Except that the Raider's props were all reground/refinished in the Hornet's machine shops while at sea, and came out of there totally black  from hub to prop tip. Any painting made by an artist who did not actually witness the event is going to be based on a series of assumptions, observations and the artist's own inherent biases. Even a great military artist like Keith Ferris or Tom Freeman admits to an occasional screw up or and "I just thought it looked better this way" moment.

 

 

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 4, 2008 10:53 PM

You are right about that--artistical interpretations are notoriously innacurate...one thing that strikes me as unbelievable are the figures in the painting on the Hipper's bow which seem to be standing like spectators watching a football game...I'm sure with all kinds of ordanance flying from both sides this was not the case...

One thing that I have always wondered about was how the Glowworm turned so sharply and rammed the Hipper on her starboard side when in the pics available the Glowworm is parallel w/ the Hipper when she is only a hundred or so yards away with the Hipper probably closing well over 20 knots...???

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 10, 2008 1:28 PM

Just ordered the B Resina resin Glowworm from Pacific Models along with a Tom's AM PE set....received the Hipper's stand-in from them a few days ago: The Tamiya Prinz Eugen...sweet kit...

Gonna be a heck of a dio...I hope.  The size of the Hipper is so much bigger when compared to the Glowworm that it seems incredible that the British ship even challenged her...

  • Member since
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  • From: Michigan
Posted by ps1scw on Friday, October 10, 2008 2:54 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:

Gonna be a heck of a dio...I hope.  The size of the Hipper is so much bigger when compared to the Glowworm that it seems incredible that the British ship even challenged her...

I'm sure that's what the crew was thinking too.

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:54 AM

SIze comparison; Hipper's hull alongside the resin casting of Glowworm's:

  • Member since
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  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:04 PM
Wow David and Goliath! Or was it more like the Alamo !
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:21 PM
 sfcmac wrote:
Wow David and Goliath! Or was it more like the Alamo !
A little of both, I think...my girlfriend said the painting of the action looked like a whole lot of "stupidity"...what do chicks know?
  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:41 PM

I suppose they know alot, else why would she be dating you, eh?

Unfortunate set of circumstances all around, but light ships are screening ships and in fact it is a big ?? how fate allowed Glowworm to get within striking distance of a major surface ship. Bad luck for the Kriegsmarine I guess.

Here's the bow you need:

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 13, 2008 6:31 AM
 bondoman wrote:

I suppose they know alot, else why would she be dating you, eh?

Unfortunate set of circumstances all around, but light ships are screening ships and in fact it is a big ?? how fate allowed Glowworm to get within striking distance of a major surface ship. Bad luck for the Kriegsmarine I guess.

Here's the bow you need:

Cool...is that the correct measure for the time-frame?
  • Member since
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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Monday, October 13, 2008 9:36 AM
Pure Limey guts! What a navy!!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 13, 2008 12:48 PM

 subfixer wrote:
Pure Limey guts! What a navy!!
One thing for sure that took courage was the fact that just about any time a ship went down in the North Sea, the chances of surviving were very slim unless you were picked up immeadiatly...when the Scharnhorst sunk the British aircraft carrier "Glorious" almost all of the crew got off okay but died of exposure in the water because the Germans didn't stick around to pick up survivors and the British were slow to send out rescue craft...I believe over 900 died of exposure...shameful...

  • Member since
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Posted by jwintjes on Monday, October 13, 2008 5:05 PM

I have difficulties to believe that losses among Glorious' crew were light. If I remember correctly, the carrier was hit several times, first in the hangar. One hit during the second part of the engagement (after she had reappeared from the smoke screen laid by her escorts) effectively wiped out the bridge personnel, another one in the engine room must have caused considerable casualties. With a complement of around 1250 I believe at the time of the sinking I have serious doubts that 900 made it off board.

As for the Germans, let's not forget Scharnhorst was actually heavily damaged in the engagement by a torpedo hit.

Jorit

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 13, 2008 6:55 PM
 jwintjes wrote:

I have difficulties to believe that losses among Glorious' crew were light. If I remember correctly, the carrier was hit several times, first in the hangar. One hit during the second part of the engagement (after she had reappeared from the smoke screen laid by her escorts) effectively wiped out the bridge personnel, another one in the engine room must have caused considerable casualties. With a complement of around 1250 I believe at the time of the sinking I have serious doubts that 900 made it off board.

As for the Germans, let's not forget Scharnhorst was actually heavily damaged in the engagement by a torpedo hit.

Jorit

"When at 19:20 of 8. June 1940 the Acasta was sunk the 2 German ships (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) left the area with Scharnhorst damaged by the torpedo on the starboard side fired by Acasta.

No trials to rescue British survivors was made by the German ships due to the clear danger they were in.

The possibility to have other British ships reaching the area because of the Glorious radio transmission potentially been intercepted by heavy units (even if disturbed by the Gneisenau) togheter with the sailing difficulties of the Scharnhorst unable to sail full speed forced Admiral Wilhelm Marschall to leave the area in a hurry to reach Trondheim as soon as possible to save the damaged Scharnhorst.

At 19:30, the sea was calm, and almost 900 British survivors were floating on rafts waiting to be rescued, with a very limited availability of water and food on the carley floats or the rafts, on some of them nothing at all.

No help came from Royal Navy ships on the area even if 2 destroyers, HMS Vanoc and HMS Veteran were detached to join Glorious from a convoy and without knowing the carrier destiny sailed through the area without noticing anything strange, later they met the survivors on the Faroe Islands.

On the morning of 9. June 1940 the hospital ship Atlantis met the British battleship H.M.S. Valiant and reported the presence of the 2 German battleships she met on the morning 8. June 1940.

Only at that point British Admiralty became aware of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau presence and suspected Glorious destiny, close connecting this with HMS Devonshire report.

H.M.S. Southampton log for 9. June records: "12:55 body sighted in the water, altered course to investigate. 3 bodies seen in the water. 13:05 proceeded at 20 knots to re-join convoy."

H.M.S. Southampton noon position was 68°46'N, 03°40E. These bodies were almost certainly casualties from the previous day engagement.

At about 16:00 on 10. June 1940 the Norwegian SS Marita en route from Tromsø to Thorshavn sighted empty rafts, rafts with dead bodies, and heavy oil at 68°39'N, 04°05'E.

Between 23:45 on 10. June and 05:55 on 11. June the Norwegian merchant ship SS Borgund en route from Tromsø to Thorshavn, sighted 21 rafts at 68°15'N, 02°20'E and 67°59'N, 03°42'E rescuing 3 Officers and 35 sailors from Glorious and 1 from Acasta.

These men were landed at Thorshavn (Faeroe Islands) at 19:30 on 13 June and subsequently returned to the Firth of Forth in Scotland by HMS Veteran, they arrived in Rosyth on 18. June 1940.

5 Glorious sailors rescued from another Norwegian ship taken to Norway and became prisoners of war.

2 Ardent sailors were rescued from a German aircraft became prisoners of war.

Total of 46 were rescued from the sea, while 1.519 (Winton) or 1.530 (Plate) or 1.561 (Curry) or 1.474 lost their lives, probably more than 800 only because they weren't rescued in time.

On German ships (only Scharnhorst) casualties caused by Acasta torpedo were 48 men."

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Posted by jwintjes on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:39 AM

Ah, sorry, - I thought that the figure of 900 meant Glorious only. Including Ardent and Acasta it sounds possible. I have something nagging at the back of my brain that Winton has the figure of roughly 800, but can't find it right now.

Jorit 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:14 PM
 jwintjes wrote:

Ah, sorry, - I thought that the figure of 900 meant Glorious only. Including Ardent and Acasta it sounds possible. I have something nagging at the back of my brain that Winton has the figure of roughly 800, but can't find it right now.

Jorit 

Either way, its tragic so many died of exposure...fighting in the cold areas of the North Sea took more bravery, IMO, than fighting in the warmer waters of the S. Pacific...
  • Member since
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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:46 PM
Except that the South Pacific has lots of sharks. Think of the Indianapolis.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:58 PM
 subfixer wrote:
Except that the South Pacific has lots of sharks. Think of the Indianapolis.
True, I'm not sure which is worst...the freezing cold that you can't survive no matter what, or the possibility of being eaten alive...
  • Member since
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  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:17 PM
I'll take the cold any day ... you just kind of drift off and never wake up. Beats feeling your legs and arms get ripped off one by one any day of the week!
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 17, 2008 1:52 PM
 mfsob wrote:
I'll take the cold any day ... you just kind of drift off and never wake up. Beats feeling your legs and arms get ripped off one by one any day of the week!
True, but the sharks are just a possibility, not a guarantee...
  • Member since
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  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, October 17, 2008 11:12 PM
What was the last massive loss of life in a naval engagement? I'm putting out the ? because I got the ship shot right.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:26 AM
 bondoman wrote:
What was the last massive loss of life in a naval engagement? I'm putting out the ? because I got the ship shot right.
Indianapolis?
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