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Hipper vs Glowworm...

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 6:32 PM

See above...need some research info...I want to ensure accuracy of the Worm's location at time of ramming...

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA
Posted by tigerman on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 5:22 PM

So what happened to this build Manny?

   http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/wing_nut_5o/PANZERJAGERGB.jpg

 Eric 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:14 PM

Does anyone have any info on any published overview of this brief battle?  I am particularly interested if anyone knows of a diagram showing the track of the two ships up to the ramming event...need the info for a possible dio...

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 27, 2008 6:48 PM
 subfixer wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 subfixer wrote:
 alumni72 wrote:

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

 

I've been having the same problem but only when trying to use the function with Manny's posts. Has anyone else had this problem? I get a message: non-matching quotes or something like that.

Delete the apostrophe out of "Manstein's" and you will be good to go.  

Good to go!

Wink [;)]
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Friday, October 24, 2008 12:16 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 subfixer wrote:
 alumni72 wrote:

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

 

I've been having the same problem but only when trying to use the function with Manny's posts. Has anyone else had this problem? I get a message: non-matching quotes or something like that.

Delete the apostrophe out of "Manstein's" and you will be good to go.  

Good to go!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 24, 2008 9:15 AM
 subfixer wrote:
 alumni72 wrote:

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

 

I've been having the same problem but only when trying to use the function with Manny's posts. Has anyone else had this problem? I get a message: non-matching quotes or something like that.

Delete the apostrophe out of "Manstein's" and you will be good to go.  
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Friday, October 24, 2008 5:55 AM
 alumni72 wrote:

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

 

I've been having the same problem but only when trying to use the function with Manny's posts. Has anyone else had this problem? I get a message: non-matching quotes or something like that.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Thursday, October 23, 2008 2:31 PM
Can I quote you on that?  Tongue [:P]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 23, 2008 1:56 PM
 alumni72 wrote:

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

Manstein's revenge stated:

One thing that I have always wondered about was how the Glowworm turned so sharply and rammed the Hipper on her starboard side when in the pics available the Glowworm is parallel w/ the Hipper when she is only a hundred or so yards away with the Hipper probably closing well over 20 knots...???

 

The photo is not simply of the Glowworm in flames, but of the Glowworm laying a smokescreen.  According to accounts, the Hipper entered the smokescreen - at which point the Germans found that the Glowworm had come around to port in almost a full circle and at that point rammed the Hipper just to the rear of (I avoid using the term "abaft") her anchors on the starboard side.  She then traveled down the length of the Hipper's starboard side, effectively tearing away around 130 feet of the cruiser's armor belt and also carrying away her (the Hipper's) starboard torpedo tubes.

As far as why it was possible for the two ships to come together so closely, the seas were extremely heavy, making accurate gunfire impossible. In fact the German officers stated that it was difficult to discern which destroyer (there were German destroyers present as well) was the one firing at her until the range had been closed considerably.  The Hipper, being a much larger ship, of course was a more stable gun platform and so was able to inflict damage to the Glowworm, when the return fire was far from accurate.

Awesome info, thanks a bunch...So probably the pics we are all used to seeing of Glowworm in front of Hipper WERE NOT taken just prior to her ramming Hipper...sounds like they were taken of her laying the smokescreen as you stated as she crossed the Hipper's "T"...Then, as she passsed around Hipper full circle she rammed her...makes more sense now...gotta try to get that angle right in my dio...I'll post different pics and get input before they are set in place...by the way, for some reason, you have to take the apostrophe out of my name in order to quote me...  
  • Member since
    February 2016
Posted by alumni72 on Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:01 AM

The doggone quote function is giving me fits, so...

 

Manstein's revenge stated:

One thing that I have always wondered about was how the Glowworm turned so sharply and rammed the Hipper on her starboard side when in the pics available the Glowworm is parallel w/ the Hipper when she is only a hundred or so yards away with the Hipper probably closing well over 20 knots...???

 

The photo is not simply of the Glowworm in flames, but of the Glowworm laying a smokescreen.  According to accounts, the Hipper entered the smokescreen - at which point the Germans found that the Glowworm had come around to port in almost a full circle and at that point rammed the Hipper just to the rear of (I avoid using the term "abaft") her anchors on the starboard side.  She then traveled down the length of the Hipper's starboard side, effectively tearing away around 130 feet of the cruiser's armor belt and also carrying away her (the Hipper's) starboard torpedo tubes.

As far as why it was possible for the two ships to come together so closely, the seas were extremely heavy, making accurate gunfire impossible. In fact the German officers stated that it was difficult to discern which destroyer (there were German destroyers present as well) was the one firing at her until the range had been closed considerably.  The Hipper, being a much larger ship, of course was a more stable gun platform and so was able to inflict damage to the Glowworm, when the return fire was far from accurate.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 12:02 PM

A bit 'o progress:

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Monday, October 20, 2008 10:13 PM

 I thought if you hadn't seen those they would be helpful. The top pic is definately looking like Norway in the background.

I agree that yhe last photo of the Glowworm is moments before she capsized. Compared to the other she is definately dead in the water.

 The other thing the large photos show is just how heavy the sea was during this battle. Could be a real challenge to replicate the rough seas. Be pretty cool though.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 20, 2008 7:47 PM
Wow, Happy Birthday and thanks for the ref pics...looks like in the top pic she is wearing the measure I need! Looks like the Glowworm has had her bow sheared off in the 5th pic!
  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: League City, Texas
Posted by sfcmac on Monday, October 20, 2008 5:55 PM

     Well here goes nuthin. It's my birthday and I am truing to be helpful which usually causes great destruction.  You may have these they are from The German Navy 1939-1945 if the book is to be trusted these are all from that operation. I scanned em big just in case you may find something useful. Sorry if it is too large.

Hope there is something useful there for you.! Make a Toast [#toast]

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 19, 2008 10:05 PM
 warshipbuilder wrote:
Way cool---is that the Hipper in the measure I need? Is that the Graf Zepplin in the background???
  • Member since
    February 2005
Posted by warshipbuilder on Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:12 PM
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 18, 2008 2:00 AM
 bondoman wrote:
No, later but over 300 lives.
Falkland's War: General Belgrano
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:32 AM
No, later but over 300 lives.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 18, 2008 1:26 AM
 bondoman wrote:
What was the last massive loss of life in a naval engagement? I'm putting out the ? because I got the ship shot right.
Indianapolis?
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Friday, October 17, 2008 11:12 PM
What was the last massive loss of life in a naval engagement? I'm putting out the ? because I got the ship shot right.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 17, 2008 1:52 PM
 mfsob wrote:
I'll take the cold any day ... you just kind of drift off and never wake up. Beats feeling your legs and arms get ripped off one by one any day of the week!
True, but the sharks are just a possibility, not a guarantee...
  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:17 PM
I'll take the cold any day ... you just kind of drift off and never wake up. Beats feeling your legs and arms get ripped off one by one any day of the week!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:58 PM
 subfixer wrote:
Except that the South Pacific has lots of sharks. Think of the Indianapolis.
True, I'm not sure which is worst...the freezing cold that you can't survive no matter what, or the possibility of being eaten alive...
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:46 PM
Except that the South Pacific has lots of sharks. Think of the Indianapolis.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:14 PM
 jwintjes wrote:

Ah, sorry, - I thought that the figure of 900 meant Glorious only. Including Ardent and Acasta it sounds possible. I have something nagging at the back of my brain that Winton has the figure of roughly 800, but can't find it right now.

Jorit 

Either way, its tragic so many died of exposure...fighting in the cold areas of the North Sea took more bravery, IMO, than fighting in the warmer waters of the S. Pacific...
  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:39 AM

Ah, sorry, - I thought that the figure of 900 meant Glorious only. Including Ardent and Acasta it sounds possible. I have something nagging at the back of my brain that Winton has the figure of roughly 800, but can't find it right now.

Jorit 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 13, 2008 6:55 PM
 jwintjes wrote:

I have difficulties to believe that losses among Glorious' crew were light. If I remember correctly, the carrier was hit several times, first in the hangar. One hit during the second part of the engagement (after she had reappeared from the smoke screen laid by her escorts) effectively wiped out the bridge personnel, another one in the engine room must have caused considerable casualties. With a complement of around 1250 I believe at the time of the sinking I have serious doubts that 900 made it off board.

As for the Germans, let's not forget Scharnhorst was actually heavily damaged in the engagement by a torpedo hit.

Jorit

"When at 19:20 of 8. June 1940 the Acasta was sunk the 2 German ships (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) left the area with Scharnhorst damaged by the torpedo on the starboard side fired by Acasta.

No trials to rescue British survivors was made by the German ships due to the clear danger they were in.

The possibility to have other British ships reaching the area because of the Glorious radio transmission potentially been intercepted by heavy units (even if disturbed by the Gneisenau) togheter with the sailing difficulties of the Scharnhorst unable to sail full speed forced Admiral Wilhelm Marschall to leave the area in a hurry to reach Trondheim as soon as possible to save the damaged Scharnhorst.

At 19:30, the sea was calm, and almost 900 British survivors were floating on rafts waiting to be rescued, with a very limited availability of water and food on the carley floats or the rafts, on some of them nothing at all.

No help came from Royal Navy ships on the area even if 2 destroyers, HMS Vanoc and HMS Veteran were detached to join Glorious from a convoy and without knowing the carrier destiny sailed through the area without noticing anything strange, later they met the survivors on the Faroe Islands.

On the morning of 9. June 1940 the hospital ship Atlantis met the British battleship H.M.S. Valiant and reported the presence of the 2 German battleships she met on the morning 8. June 1940.

Only at that point British Admiralty became aware of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau presence and suspected Glorious destiny, close connecting this with HMS Devonshire report.

H.M.S. Southampton log for 9. June records: "12:55 body sighted in the water, altered course to investigate. 3 bodies seen in the water. 13:05 proceeded at 20 knots to re-join convoy."

H.M.S. Southampton noon position was 68°46'N, 03°40E. These bodies were almost certainly casualties from the previous day engagement.

At about 16:00 on 10. June 1940 the Norwegian SS Marita en route from Tromsø to Thorshavn sighted empty rafts, rafts with dead bodies, and heavy oil at 68°39'N, 04°05'E.

Between 23:45 on 10. June and 05:55 on 11. June the Norwegian merchant ship SS Borgund en route from Tromsø to Thorshavn, sighted 21 rafts at 68°15'N, 02°20'E and 67°59'N, 03°42'E rescuing 3 Officers and 35 sailors from Glorious and 1 from Acasta.

These men were landed at Thorshavn (Faeroe Islands) at 19:30 on 13 June and subsequently returned to the Firth of Forth in Scotland by HMS Veteran, they arrived in Rosyth on 18. June 1940.

5 Glorious sailors rescued from another Norwegian ship taken to Norway and became prisoners of war.

2 Ardent sailors were rescued from a German aircraft became prisoners of war.

Total of 46 were rescued from the sea, while 1.519 (Winton) or 1.530 (Plate) or 1.561 (Curry) or 1.474 lost their lives, probably more than 800 only because they weren't rescued in time.

On German ships (only Scharnhorst) casualties caused by Acasta torpedo were 48 men."

  • Member since
    March 2006
Posted by jwintjes on Monday, October 13, 2008 5:05 PM

I have difficulties to believe that losses among Glorious' crew were light. If I remember correctly, the carrier was hit several times, first in the hangar. One hit during the second part of the engagement (after she had reappeared from the smoke screen laid by her escorts) effectively wiped out the bridge personnel, another one in the engine room must have caused considerable casualties. With a complement of around 1250 I believe at the time of the sinking I have serious doubts that 900 made it off board.

As for the Germans, let's not forget Scharnhorst was actually heavily damaged in the engagement by a torpedo hit.

Jorit

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 13, 2008 12:48 PM

 subfixer wrote:
Pure Limey guts! What a navy!!
One thing for sure that took courage was the fact that just about any time a ship went down in the North Sea, the chances of surviving were very slim unless you were picked up immeadiatly...when the Scharnhorst sunk the British aircraft carrier "Glorious" almost all of the crew got off okay but died of exposure in the water because the Germans didn't stick around to pick up survivors and the British were slow to send out rescue craft...I believe over 900 died of exposure...shameful...

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