P.T. boat colors

Hi! This is a very old thread, but taking a chance here in case anyone still active. Did we conclude that Hayes Gray, with perhaps a slightly gray blue deck is the proper measure paint scheme for English channel PT boats? I'm looking to do one from Ron 34 preferably which participated in D-Day I believe, around 35 like the 515 or 516 (any of those will ) with the large recognition store on the front deck.   Any help would be appreciated!  

gaeth-- i just want to thank all the people out there that sent me photos and gave me some direction in building my PT boat 1/35 scale. it is done and i will post some pics. asap. it ended up in the cammo colors [as close as i could get] i added some scratch stuff which i wilol explain with the pics. she will never win any contests but i am happy with the results and am now embarking on the linberg 1/72  I-53 Kaitens sub. it is a real beast [alwost 5 feet long]. my biggest problem is my inability to get around on the computer. can you e-mail me if you get this msg? 0ntos40@yahoo.com thanks phil

Sir?

What do you mean that the cabin was not correct?  Are you talking about the PT-658 from Oregon or what?  I'm only aware of that restored PT on the West coast.  Do you mean one of the Vosper designed MTBs (for the Soviets in  late WW2) that used to be in the SF area?  I am aware that one of those was in an on and off again restoration through the late 80s through to the late 90s but has since sank (at her mooring) and is a total loss now.

From what I understand, the PT-658 was accurately restored by SAVE THE PT, the US Navy and actual veterans who served on PT boats.  Is that the boat you're referring to?

Garth 

 

 

 

ontosusmc---- I think I can help you .When I operated an oil spill vessel for my employer in CA, I had the opportunity to go aboard a ("restored ") P.T. in SAN FRANCISCO BAY . She was painted a color I have always known as USN haze grey . The color was the same as the haze grey we used at the HORNET museum . The deck was a strange but pretty close shade to USN deck grey ( I think they had to much blue in the mix ) The cabin top (which is NOT correct ) was NON - SKID black (this goes for the forward and main cabin ) Try the P.T.BOAT MUSEUM in FALL RIVER ,MASS. They have a HIGGINS and an ELCO and they ARE correct . I am sure they would be glad to help.--------TANKERBUILDER---- P.S. did you know the old boats we had access to in the nam were GREEN .?

Hey Garth... thanks for your vote of confidence, but I have to dial it back a bit.

If there is a known SYSTEM in place we can PROBABLY guess the color.

But no one can guess color from black and white in and of itself. There are too many varibles; film will shift colors and tones, if it's a copy that will tend to increase contrast, so the lights become lighter and the darks become darker. Things like that really make it hard to really state with authority what a color might be.

That said, we can make educated guesses in many cases. We have pattern design sheets for many ships that allow us to say "this one called for black and not Navy blue, so this color here is black," but even then you will see arguments about it because at times these systems were not completely followed.

May I make a suggestion here people?

The gentleman asking the question could send the photos to someone like Tracy White, Randy Short or John Snyder and ask them to tell them what color the boats are in the photos.  These gentlemen are quite capable of doing that from B/W photos; if they tell them that info - they can then determine schemes the boats are in.

Just my offering of help ............

But, I remember one of these gentlemen telling me, and I think it was John Snyder, that the boats in the English Channel wore Grays.  So, maybe they are in the USN Grays used in 1943/44?  What?  Measure 13, Measure 14?

Garth 

 

 

 

 

weebles wrote:

The boats in England seemed to have started with what may be Thayer system and then transitioned to a camo measure similar to English boats I guess.  Anyway, I was wondering if you had any information or thoughts about it.

Hi Dave, 

I don't have any memos or similar documents detailing the paint schemes for the Atlantic boats, but do not think the RON 34 and 35  boats in the Channel were MS16.  I suspect they were MS13 (Haze Gray, Deck Blue) because:

a.  SHIPS2 describes MS13 as having lowest visibility to surface observers in hazy and foggy weather...which seems to be consistent with conditions in the Channel;

b.  In an unpublished 1945 manuscript by David Swasey, an ELCO camoufleur, only the RON 29 boats are mentioned as being painted in Thayer Blue;

c.  In another unpublished manuscript by Bob Ferrell, an artist and former PT Boater, the RON 34 and 35 boats are identified as being gray while the RON 29 boats are identified as blue;

d.  I have a video tape (I think from the PTBM) that has a few seconds of color footage of RON 34 or 35 boats at Portland  that are definitely gray.

The photo of the 503, 504, and 518 boats in mostly dark shades is intriguing.  If you look closely, you'll notice a wide variety of shades on them, including light-colored ready service lockers on 518.  This may have been an experiment or a temporary tactical scheme (notice the variability in the numbers).

As for the dark panels on the 505 boat, again perhaps an experiment or tactical scheme.  I haven't seen any MS drawings showing anything like this.  The tones are similar to those seen on the RN 77' ELCOs operating out of Alexandria but I don't recall any similar patterns on RN types in the Channel.

There's soooooo much to learn..............................

Al

 

LOL.  I just wanted to make sure you received credit for the work in your book.  :-)  The Coastal Forces book is one of my favorites.

I posted a question for you at the PT Boats Inc. message board regarding camo measures on English Channel boats.  The photos you provided above are in the Med.  The boats in England seemed to have started with what may be Thayer system and then transitioned to a camo measure similar to English boats I guess.  Anyway, I was wondering if you had any information or thoughts about it. 

Thanks so much

Dave

weebles wrote:

Note that the that outside the toe rail is Thayer Blue as well.

Let's be a little careful here, especially if you're putting this on me...  Photos show the area in question as a lighter color than the rest of the deck.  It could be Thayer Blue or it could be another light color.  Here are a couple photos (older screened shots which do not always scan well) showing boats in this group and scheme:  

 

There is a definite color shift and demarcation line visible in both.

Al Ross

Greetings,

If you want a gray boat consider making an Atlantic/Mediterranean version.  It's not exactly "Navy Gray".  The color scheme according to Dr. Al Ross is a modified Measure 16 consisting of Thayer Blue (5B) overall with Deck Blue (20B) on the deck only.  Note that the that outside the toe rail is Thayer Blue as well.  Thayer Blue is similar to Navy Gray according to the samples.  You can see samples of those colors at this link...

Thayer Blue Sample

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/chips/USNchip2.jpg

Deck Blue

http://www.steelnavy.com/images/chips/USNchip1.jpg

A good example of this to build would be PT 504 which can be seen at this link.  This picture was taken shortly after D-Day.

http://www.ptboats.org/20-09-05-gallery-027.html

For accuracy purposes you may want to change the radar dome.  You would also lose the aft roll of torpedo mounts and the 37mm on the foredeck.  There are some other detail changes but this is a good example of a mostly gray looking PT Boat.

Good luck

Dave

ontosusmc wrote:

i dont understand the notation about the bad music. did i send it? and if so i dont know how i did thanks again-----ontos

Negatory; the first web site linked to above had a music file embedded into it. Sound clips that load automatically in web pages fall into the "just because you can doesn't mean you should" catagor.

I had my modeler named Niphon built the same boat, i.e. PT-596 1:35, and showed it recently. He painted it according to the color scheme provided by the kit. I think the color is sweet. You might want to check this thread:

/forums/1133104/ShowPost.aspx 

Tracy-----thanks for the tips, i am getting some great input from you guys. i dont understand the notation about the bad music. did i send it? and if so i dont know how i did thanks again-----ontos

P.K. thanks for the P.T. color sites i will head there A.S.A.P.-----ontos

Garth thanks for the reply, i am doing the Italeri 1/35 scale boat and the color scheme they show is the commo pattern of that era, however, i wolud like to paint it in a gloss haze gray with the deck in a deck gray color, all of the boats i was on during my Marine Corps career were gray so i just want it to look navyish but, i dont want to ruin the model, so i guess i am looking for an opinion more than anything else. sorry i took so long to reply but i am still stumbling around in cyberspace, i will get better-----ontos

Tracy White wrote:

Oh man, horrid music on the first one... speaker warning!

 

Yea, the music is kind of funky but it has some nice pictures.

Oh man, horrid music on the first one... speaker warning!

You have a bunch of choices, depending on the boat you're trying to do.

PT-109 was originally pre-war "#5 Standard Navy Gray" but was re-painted to a "tropical green"  green color that paint manufacturer  White Ensign makes and sells (They're in England  but ship to the US, a US company that sells them is ShipCamouflage.Com). Later models of the Elco PT boat were painted in Camouflage Measure 31, design 5P (measure dictated colors, design was the layout of splotches, etc.) and then starting in 1944 Measure 31, design 20L.

You can get an idea of what the colors used in Ms 31/20L looked like on my blog post here. If you don't want to buy the White Ensign paints you can instead buy color chips to mix your own from ShipCamouflage.Com.

Hello,

Which boat are you going to do?  During which time frame?  In what scheme?  If you can tell me that, I can help to point you in the right direction sir.

Garth 

 

 

here are a couple of great sites:

http://www.beatylayptboat.com/beatyframe.html

http://www.ptboatworld.com/  (this one has a section on cammo colors)