Lindberg's 1/144 Arizona

thank you tankerbuilder, well said. i'm all for accuracy in a subject, but holly cow. when you show anyone (except the most educated) your latest project, they cant tell that the whiget on the right side of the hull is 1 scale foot to high or to low. they just see a fine representation of an actual ship. if you want to be a bolt counter, be my guest. but please dont kill a potential kit based on speculation.O.K. now i'll climb off my soap box

I have read ALL this particular thread and there is a few points,however taken, I must make.As many of you know I am and have been for quite some years a proffessional model maker to attorneys and companies.This is NOT the CAT,S MEOW you all think ,or seem to think it is.You are held to agreed deadlines and GOD forbid if they(the client) changes anything!! The other thing Except for our own, and very astute TRACY WHITE ,you sound like the same people I ran across at the lastIPMS show I went to.Not everyone is so all fired interested in ACCURACY!! The average first or second time modeler doesn,t have the skills or knowledge we do,by our years in the hobby and the knowledge of the subject being discussed. The average modeler out there probably couldn,t afford the ARIZONA in that scale anyway!!.As for me,I have a seven and a half foot ARIZONA hull rigged for R.C. BUT,I have had a terrible time getting pictures of the ARIZONA before she was refitted PRIOR toPEARL HARBOR!!Now, that ERNIE is out of the picture A era has passed and the beanies are all arrayed to send offshore all the molds they do have,mark my words!! Don,t hold your collective breath.I really don,t expect the 1/144 ARIZONA now.I would hope we all stick to our guns though,and,when something is totally unfixable at the scale or price,we need to couch our language in such a way that the reps will listen.I railled on REVELL a while back and I have seen some improvement in cars anyway,so maybe they want to listen ,but don,t want confrontation,TRACY has the right of it,talk and write but don,t get them angry.They will shut us off!!      Tankerbuilder

Uhu

I hope the Lindberg Arizona is dead.   A pool toy rendition of this ship would be a disgrace.    

Agreed!  I don't know how my last post got tripled.....  I only pressed Post once.  The Forum Gremlin strikes again!  

I looked at Lindberg's website.  They show the I-20 and the Graf Zeppelin as available with no indication of them as still pending.  Has anyone seen one yet?  There is no sign of an Arizona anywhere on the website that I saw.

I hope the Lindberg Arizona is dead.   A pool toy rendition of this ship would be a disgrace.    

Hmmmm, this just begs the questions: Was the Master Modeler bought out or dismissed also?  What part, if any, did the debacle over the first Japanese submarine release have to do with this developement?  What about the second Japanese sub that was due to be released (I-20?)?  Or their Graf Zeppelin?  Is Lindberg going to continue to try to win over the Scale Modeler groups as opposed to the RC group they have catered to in the past?  Or are they giving up and returning to their roots of large, if inaccurate, RC Models and oversized toys?  I guess only time will tell!

Hmmmm, this just begs the questions: Was the Master Modeler bought out or dismissed also?  What part, if any, did the debacle over the first Japanese submarine release have to do with this developement?  What about the second Japanese sub that was due to be released (I-20?)?  Or their Graf Zeppelin?  Is Lindberg going to continue to try to win over the Scale Modeler groups as opposed to the RC group they have catered to in the past?  Or are they giving up and returning to their roots of large, if inaccurate, RC Models and oversized toys?  I guess only time will tell!

Hmmmm, this just begs the questions: Was the Master Modeler bought out or dismissed also?  What part, if any, did the debacle over the first Japanese submarine release have to do with this developement?  What about the second Japanese sub that was due to be released (I-20?)?  Or their Graf Zeppelin?  Is Lindberg going to continue to try to win over the Scale Modeler groups as opposed to the RC group they have catered to in the past?  Or are they giving up and returning to their roots of large, if inaccurate, RC Models and oversized toys?  I guess only time will tell!

That may well do it - depends on who did the buying out. If it's bean counters, then yeah, anything that is not a "sure thing" before the first kit is popped out is dead; if it's hobbyists, then there's still a chance.

Not that I was interested anyway, I have no SPACE for a monster of that size.

 

Distributed error checking!

An update regarding the Arizona kit. Ernie Petit; the CEO, was bought out and retired a couple of months ago. I have not been able to contact anyone at Lindberg to see if they will continue with the project, so it may very well be dead.

Tracy White

It's a little early yet to judge the Arizona model. That's not even a test shot.

 

That never stopped modelers before....if there is a suspected flaw, they will find it!  

Hopefully their new Bismarck, as well as any other injection plastic kits they release, will be an improvement of the existing 1/144 resin display models.

A friend has the Yamato & its certainly not worth the price of what they're asking:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1028040

I had been trying to get a photo etch set from TJ but it now appears he's on his own.

I think the the Glow2B kit is supposed to be cheaper than the SA kit. Not sure by how much though.

cassibill wrote:

Soar Art and Glow2B both are doing 1/144 Bismarcks.

I recall seeing those pics of the Soar Art Bismarck. I believe the rumored price a couple years ago was in excess of $1200 which took me out of the running.

Negative publicity isn't always a good thing.

Even if the Arizona turns out to be a dog, Lindberg is sure getting one thing out of all the hooplah - a ton of publicity. Which will probably ultimately transplate into selling a few more kits. Which, for them, is THE name of the game. Nothing else really matters, from their perspective.

Just an update for the masses; a couple of us who have detailed knowledge of Arizona have made contact with them... I can't say any more than that and cannot promise anything, but hopefully we'll be able to help them turn out a better kit.

They are also doing a 1/32 F-35 Lightning II, but had a 1/16 scale balsa model on display, scaled up from one of the existing X-35 plastic kits. They are suposed to be working with Lockheed on the actual kit to make it accurate to the production version, something the mockup is not.

It looks like this is just how their marketing people are working at the moment, have something for people to look at, not some vague drawings as some companies do.

Maybe their Arizona will be a joke, maybe it will knock your socks off. I can't see getting to worked up over it yet though. Sending helpful comments / corrections can't hurt. As far as the modelers comments, I see the same stuff here with peoples builds, some accept constructive criticism, some want only praise. If you just spent 400 hours building a model you might get pretty defensive too, particularly if the comments are as caustic as some of the earlier I-53 ones were.

 

Keep in mind this isn't the first 1/144 scale battleship put into development.  Soar Art and Glow2B both are doing 1/144 Bismarcks.  They run 174cm, so they have the AZ and the 1/200 Yamato beaten by a fair margin.  The Glow2B is expected to arrive Aug. '10, not sure on SA's at least not off the top of my head.  Then Soar Art's IJN Yamato should measure out at about 1.826 m, so AZ would come in a #3 on the longest 1/144 ship list. That I know of.  I'm not missing anything am I?  Anybody got anything I've missed? I'm always watching out for 1/144.

I'm fairly certain you're right about the those being the wrong guns, but I don't think they are pilfered from the Fletcher.  I've been doing some pretty intense studying of the Fletcher kits and the AM available for it for the site and as hints for Santa, and they don't look like what I've been seeing.  Wouldn't swear to it without a better pic but from what I have...Those aren't Revell's.

jtilley, those are quad 40mm not quad 1.1".

On the subject of the model's size, an injection-moulded 1/144 Arizona is definitely practical with today's moulding technology; Nichimo's 1/200 Yamato, first produced in the 1970s (which has a single-piece hull) is actually a bit larger, at 132cm long (AZ in 1/144 would be 129cm).

A quote from Steelnavy, which confirms that the model at the show is definitely a scratchbuilt mockup, not a test shot:

The model on display is a prototype built by Richard Melillo (www.themodelersart.com). In other words, this is not a built version of an early tooling (i.e., this model had wood deck planking, the finished version will not). According to the guys from Lindberg that I talked to (Charlie & Ernie), the model will not be available until at least late 2010 or 2011, because they have not started the tooling process yet."

Tracy White also mentioned on the steelnavy.com forum that the model appeared to have been built from an out of date and inaccurate set of plans:

Richard modeled the ship based on the Floating Drydock plans, which contain errors he faithfully replicated. ... The Floating Drydock plans were based on what Arizona would have looked like post-refit; the refit she was supposed to leave for the week following the attack.

Anyway, I'll reserve judgment on this model until I see some actual kit parts/test shots. But if the kit's issues are limited to "fit" inaccuracies - wrong AA guns, radar, etc. - as appears to be the case on the mockup, at least these will be fairly straightforward to fix with scratchbuilding (unlike the fundamental shape errors in the I-53 kit). Especially in the case of the never-fitted radar and light AA, which you can simply leave off.
I certainly hope Lindberg get it right, though!

In one of the other forums, one of the posters said he talked to a person in the Lindberg booth who told him this kit would have about 1000 parts with an MSRP of about $400.  The parts count presumes a lot of good detail, so why would they have this scratch-built model, that was obviously thrown together in a hurry out of whatever parts were readily available (as long as they looked somewhere in the ballpark of what the real item looked like), built to represent what was to come?  An actual picture blown up to scale size would, to me, have served far better!  To have a model made that has so many things wrong with it, when the documentation is readily available to make it correctly, just tells me that Lindberg doesn't really care about scale modelists.  They seem to be going after the RC crowd, who it seems will accept nearly anything (case in point, I-53) as long as it has the general appearance of what they want, which this model does.  At first glance you can tell it is the Arizona or the Pennsylvania.  It isn't until you look closer that you notice all the anomalies, such as items that were never installed, or were removed long before Pearl Harbor was attacked.  I am sure that if they make the model anything like this mock-up, they will sell a whole lot of them.  However, if they make it accurate, I believe they will not be able to make them fast enough to meet the demand.  I guess we'll see in a year or so.  As I said before, I hope they do it right so as to finally give proper honor to this Lady.  I think she deserves it, don't you? 

Thanks, Mr. Lacey.  I took a look at the Steel Navy site.  It does indeed look like Lindberg is serious about this project.

Emotions appear to be getting rather hot in the SN forum.  I hope that doesn't happen again here.  But now I'm really curious about those anti-aircraft guns.  Am I the only one who thinks they look more like 40mm Bofors guns (with backwards platforms) than 1.1" "Chicago pianos"? 

One possibility that's occurred to me is that the modeler may have started out with some parts of the poor old Lindberg Fletcher-class destroyer.  (It's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/144, isn't it?)  Or maybe the new Revell one?  Again, I'd see nothing particularly wrong about doing that for a basic "concept model."  But if this kit, which presumably will cost several hundred dollars, does indeed have anti-aircraft guns of a type that hadn't even been introduced before the ship was sunk....

Professor Tilley:

Lindberg supposedly intends to release this model sometime late 2010 or 2011. They displayed it at the recent hobby show which I believe was in Chicago? There is quite the extensive thread on this over on the Steel Navy forum including correspondance between some of the members and the gentleman who made the displayed prototype (his response was rather condescending/"snarky"). Here is a link from cybermodeler showing pictures of Lindberg's booth (www.cybermodeler.com/special/ihe09.shtml. Scroll down to Lindberg). My point parallels the question you've asked namely why display this at all? If it was the initial test shots out of their new molds of the model that would be fine and very relevant but it's not.

 

Sincerely

 

Michael Lacey

I've got one big question about all this.  Did Lindberg, at the show where it displayed this model, actually say, in print or orally, that it was planning to release a 1/144 Arizona?  Or is it possible that the model we've been discussing was intended as some sort of generic promotional tool - or maybe to promote an Arizona on a smaller scale?

A 1/144 injection-molded styrene Arizona would be a pretty revolutionary development in the industry.  The hull would be well over four feet long; I don't think the industry has ever produced an injection-molded object that big.  (Even if it was broken up somehow into sections, like the Matchbox/Revell corvette or the various big submarines, the sections would be enormous and horribly prone to shrinkage, warpage, and other fit problems.)  And what on earth would the price look like?

If this actually is a project that's on Lindberg's drawing board, I wonder if the designers may be thinking in terms of a fiberglass hull - the sort of thing that the RC community takes for granted.

I have to wonder what's actually going on here.

I wish L/H all the success with this undertaking.....and if it is not a total abortion, I'll be buying that monster. I bought the I-53 sight/review unseen, but it now it sits at the very bottom of the pile. IMO.....I consider that a total abortion.

Just as the emails posted on S/N  from "master modeller" Richard Melilo stated.....HE is RIGHT.....I got that exact same "I am correct, you modelers don't know what you're talking about" when we corresponded on the I-53....even though he never stated specifically what and where his rendition came from other than "his research and documents used is out there and available to anyone that wants to get it"....that was his mantra....but never provided any substantiating evidence. It's also painfully obvious that Mr Pettit thinks the sun rises and sets in Melilo and he IS their man. They are still leaning towards the RC / big toy modeler and NOT the true scale model enthusiast.

I'll wait and see, but I bet Trumpeter is burning the midnight oil to put their's back on track....heck maybe even switch to 1/144 to go with their Gato subs.

Until we see true test shots and / or the final product....I'm putting this one to rest.....

Greetings:

 I'd like to repeat my comments that I made on the Steel Navy forum in that I don't understand what the purpose is of displaying a scratch built model of the Arizona built by a master modeler. This to me seems misleading as it does not represent the model kit that Lindberg will be producing and can only be used to drum up interest in purchasing "a" model of the Arizona. I think there are better ways of doing this such as a maybe a painting of the Arizona done by a maritime artist with a small sign saying coming "soon at Christmas time 2010". After all Hasegawa didn't display a model of the Akagi built by on of the Japanes model masters at the Tokyo Toy Show and purport it to be derived from the upcoming kit! This reminds me of the Detriot Car Show with all those concept cars on display that you just knew they would never make it to actual vehicles. A company I recently worked for did extensive molding of plastic parts for various Medical Devices they manufactured and the process was for any part a CAD drawing was first produced/reviewed. Then it was sent to the actual mold manufacturer to produce the mold either in aluminum for short run items (several thousand parts) or in tool steel for parts that would run in the hundred of thousands. They would then require the mold maker to run test shots from the mold and these would then be dimensionally compared to the original drawing of the part. If this was satisfactory then the mold was sent to the company and more test parts would be run on their molding machines. If all went well then the mold would be qualified and actual production parts could be made. In this manner an accurate molded part could be produced. Lindberg should be doing something along the same lines. After all they're not trying to produce something that had dimensional tolerances as low as +/-.005"  such as some of these medical parts required.

 

Michael Lacey 

I have no intention of posing as an expert on the Arizona's configuration as of December 7, 1941 - or any other date.  And I certainly don't intend to nudge this thread in the direction of the notorious Japanese submarine discussion.  But I have the impression that the 1.1" "Chicago piano" mount had four equally-spaced barrels.  Aren't those weapons on the model's quarterdeck Bofors 40mm quad mounts - which weren't introduced until fairly late in the war?  They look, in fact, as though they might be manufactured parts (H&R, maybe?) - and seem to be assembled incorrectly, with their platforms reversed.  (Isn't the platform supposed to project aft of the mount, so the loaders can stand on it?  And shouldn't it have a railing around it?)

Maybe that suggests that the modeler was just using what was available, and looked more-or-less right, for this highly preliminary step in the kit development process - with the assumption that the kit will contain 1.1" mounts - or, better yet, empty tubs.

In any case, even if this is a truly magnificent kit (as I hope it will be), I have to confess it won't be on my wish list.  Even if I had a place to put it, I'm sure the price will be completely beyond my budget.  (At the moment I'm sort of drooling over Tamiya's recent announcement of a 1/32 Spitfire Mk. IX - one of my favorite airplanes.  The price of that one apparently will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 - more than I've ever paid for a kit in my life, but maybe, just maybe....)

I wondered abt that. His email is generic .aol, not a .com address. I think this model looks fab, although no doubt errs in details, but it looks like it would be a real attention getter hanging in the family room!

FairSeaes; we don't know what Charlie Kucera's connection is, he might be just a friend or fan with no connection. I would be more inclined to wait and see.

Keep in mind folks that this kit was JUST "announced" and Lindberg probably spent the weekend breaking down their booth, etc. and have not had a chance to reply. The whole world does not run on internet time and we should sit back and give them a chance to catch their breath before they respond. We do not know the full story and it is too early to speak with any certainty.