PT Boat question...

Manstein's revenge

I've noticed on some US PT boats that the torps are in launching tubes, while on some other PT boats the torps just seem to be sitting open, on stands---with no visible means of them being launched...what gives?

I've also noticed the same thing with the recent release of the Italian Torpedo Boat...

Launchers vs roll-off racks. 

Different torpedos,   different launch methods.

Too, the flash from black powder charge on the launcher was a dead giveaway as to your position

Looks like the later war boats went to the roll-offs...I thought they tube-launched torps did it w/ compressed air?

Also, were any of these craft painted in medium green, such as PT-109, as depicted in movies and models???

Looking to buy the 72nd Revell classic 109 and also wondered how good the WE PE upgrade is---for $50 I thought it should be very good but the two frets themselves don't look like world-beaters...

 The MK18 torpedo tubes fitted to the ELCO and Huckins PTs used a black powder charge to launch their torpedoes.  The MK19 tubes fitted to the Higgins PTs used compressed air.  Both launched the standard 21" MK8 torpedo.  A roll-off rack developed mid war replaced the tubes and were used to launch the 22.5" MK13 torpedo normally used by TBF/TBM aircraft.

Al Ross

Hah!  Learned something new today!!  Thanks.  That fact will also help to date photos.

Also, the element of surprise and concealment was partially lost when the black powder charge went off in complete darkness as the PT Boats used the cover of night to their advantage.  Not to mention that the MK13 torps were more reliable.

The black powder version also had a bad habit of igniting the grease in the tube (bad enough to flash em but now they can pin point you )!  The racks were also much lighter as I recall. R/Mike 

Mansteins revenge

Also, were any of these craft painted in medium green, such as PT-109, as depicted in movies and models???

There have been several discussions on PT colors and schemes in the Forum. Here is a link that I hope can help you:    /forums/p/112964/1124817.aspx#1124817

See www.ptboats.org or www.ptboatworld.com, google Researcher@large ... www.shipcamouflage.com ...

Cool, so it WAS green after all...

Right.  But, I have to tell you.  Personally?  I like Measure 31/5P and the Thayer Blue System the best of all the schemes carried by the PTs.  I think those two schemes made the boats' lines more attractive rather than the overall green, ... ya know?

Garth

What does that measure look like?

White Ensign makes a paint in thier enamel Colourcoats line that is, in fact, MTB Green.  If you are ok with enamel paints their's is the best I've found and their line of World War 2 colors, not only U.S. but also IJN, RN, DKM, is spot on for accuracy as far as I can tell.  FYI

Bob

Which measure?  31/5P or the Thayer Blue System?

31/5P had a base  color  of I believe Navy Green which had irregular patterns of I think (either) Tropical Green or Ocean Green, and I believe Ocean Green would be the more likely one.  The patterns had soft edges to it.  And, I believe it had deck green decks as well.

The Thayer Blue System was overall Thayer Blue and had Deck Blue decks and all horizontal surfaces also had Deck Blue ...

The boats of PT Ron 29 (which carried this scheme) had a yellow colored triangular shaped panel (for air recognition purposes) which was three feet long, going from the forepeak back ...

Additionally, some of the Ron 29 boats (two to three feet long/wide) had a red stripe on the deck aft.

Garth

PTConsultingNHR

Which measure?   

How much "reveal" there was from using  a powder impulse system couild be subject to some question.

Especially since the preferred attack method is in the dark of night, at full speed.

So, any "flash" or "smoke" from the torpedo launching would be in contrast to the .50 cal covering fire and a bow wave of a significant size.  Remember, at the high speed setting (46kt) the engagement range was one to two miles (4000 yards).

Now, as to how other navies' PTs had on-deck torpedoes, those are reloads.  As a design strategy (or a requirement of the launcher) the tubes required more infrastructure, and were fixed.  Just with reloads ready to roll into the launchers.  Theoretically, the all-up weight is less, only two launchers plus the reloading gear, vice nn launchers with one load apiece.

But, the weight of the launchers, and all the supplies to launch and aim them is one of the reasons US PTs went to roll-off Mk13 torps--being aerial torpedoes, the 3' drop from a 40kt PT simpler than a 100' drop from a 140kt torpedo plane.

Oh, her ...........

She was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green.  Based on handwritten letters which I received in the early 80s, from the, then, four surviving members of the 109's last crew, I'd use Navy Green, but ... it's YOUR model, use what you think is good.

Garth

Yeah, 109 presents some problems.

A truly accurate model of 109, especially in her last few days would not much look like a professional model.

It would be a very boring monochrome, as well.

A person would almost have to depict some other portion of her 'Ron, if only to show that the depiction of 109 is "meant" to look that way.

PTConsultingNHR

 

She was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green.   

Here is a link to two conversions of the 1/35 Italeri PT596 kit that I built, one of which is PT109:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/patrol/pt-35-ss/ss-index.html

There is probably a lot more that we don't know about PT109's actual appearance than we do know, but one thing that is generaly accepted is that she was painted overall some shade of green.  Whether this was an official navy shade or a "homebrew" mixed from what was available is open to question.  I chose a color that looked good to me, and I don't thnk a modeler can go very wrong using some shade of medium green.  Certainly using tropical green or navy green would not be incorrect.

The other model is PT559, which was a Mediterranean boat painted in the Thayer blue scheme that Garth mentioned.

Was she the only PT Boat painted green---or was the entire unit 109 belonged to in this measure?

The other model is PT559

Quite pretty.  My only quibble would be the torpedoes--but, that's from reading Hellions of the Deep,  which describes just how long it took to get mass-produced torpedoes into USN inventory.  And, even then, most were still nearly built one-piece at a time.  The parts were matched only at final assembly at the base torpedo shop, so the tail fins might be from different runs, the motor section another, the body from still another.

A modeler almost has an excuse to use the entire metallics line of their favorite paint line, really.

I BELIEVE that Navy Green is a darker shade of green.  I was told by a PT vet that Navy Green was very similar to Olive Drab Green.  In fact, he once told me that the green used on some USPS mailboxes was the same green that they used as Navy Green.

Steve Sobieralski really knows his stuff, take it from me.

Garth

No Manstein ...

Many PTs were green ...... If you want to do a specific boat in a specific time/location - what is the time frame are you thinking of?  Do you want added weaponry?  Radar?  Torpedo tubes?  Roll-off racks?

The 109 and her near sisters in her squadron and the early squadrons were a single color scheme ...

Garth

CapnMac82

 My only quibble would be the torpedoes--but, that's from reading Hellions of the Deep,  which describes just how long it took to get mass-produced torpedoes into USN inventory.  And, even then, most were still nearly built one-piece at a time.  The parts were matched only at final assembly at the base torpedo shop, so the tail fins might be from different runs, the motor section another, the body from still another.

A modeler almost has an excuse to use the entire metallics line of their favorite paint line, really.

Torpedo colors are problematic.  I based the ones on the model on a couple color photos of Mk 13s I found on the internet with bronze colored afterbodies and grey painted warheads.  I read later that the bronze color was more likely due to the preservative applied rather than the color of  the metal itself.

Well, I am often criticized for believing this and saying this; but it is something that I have been told, both by vets, and fellow Historians,  but ... here goes nunthin' (he says whilst putting on a helmet and donning body-armor and raising shields) ...

The torpedoes were ...

The bodies were left in their "natural state" but heavily greased and the warheads (for the Mark XIIIs) were painted to either match the base color of whatever scheme the boat was painted in or to match whatever area of the  scheme that they were in front of.

I was also told that the torpedoes which were fired from tubes had their bodies left natural as well and greased but had their warheads painted to indicate whatever type of explosive that was in the warhead.

Garth

PTConsultingNHR

 The bodies were left in their "natural state" but heavily greased and the warheads (for the Mark XIIIs) were painted to either match the base color of whatever scheme the boat was painted in or to match whatever area of the  scheme that they were in front of.

I was also told that the torpedoes which were fired from tubes had their bodies left natural as well and greased but had their warheads painted to indicate whatever type of explosive that was in the warhead.

Garth

Based on contemporary photos, some boats did have MK13s with warheads painted boat colors, while others did not.  For example:

Practice warheads on MK13s were painted yellow.

Tech specs for the MK8s fired from the tubes indicate the only explosive with which they were filled was TNT, so color differences based on explosive type seems unlikely.  MK13s were filled with TPX.

Al Ross 

steves

Torpedo colors are problematic. 

You are quite correct.  I also clean failed to take into considerations just how different 'net images can be from the actual appearance.

So, let me admit mea maxima culpa here, I foolishly reacted to that cartridge-brass color without thinking that through.  I've seen that gleam in the photos of '13's being leaded into a/c; racked on PT ought be no different.

That, and I may like fooling with multiple metallic finishes too much.

I wonder what the pont was to just painting the head???  The world wonders...

Manstein's revenge

I wonder what the pont was to just painting the head???  The world wonders...

  My guess is that since the warheads were interchangeable on the torpedoes, that it made identification of the type easier. And, I am only speculating, since the after section was bronze or brass or whatever and being non-ferrous and not subect to rust, they didn't need to be painted. It is hard to keep paint on brass in my experience, so why bother?

  And now, I shall sit back and see my theories torpedoed by more learned members of the forum.