PT Boat question...

Greetings Eric,

I finished the Revell kit last year and I've included the posting for my build below.  Lots of questions. The 109 was dark green.  The evidence I've come across suggests Tropical Green which is simply a paint created in the field.  The photos I've seen indicate that it's not "Tropical Green" as sold by WEM but rather more like 5-NG (Navy Green) sold by WEM.  At the time Kennedy's boat was sunk the boats were a variety of colors.  The two skippers I spoke with from PT-105 are very firm that their boat was dark gray.  It was probably Measure 1 which is 5-D and also available from WEM.  I've found some color photos of these boats in Measure 1.  I believe that the 109 was in this measure prior to being painted green.  By the time President Kennedy took her she was probably pretty faded from the tropical sun.  A color photo of a 77 foot Elco that I have tied up to the 109 boat is in a home brew light gray.  

Regarding the WEM photoetch set.  In my mind there are some parts that were very helpful to me and others I didn't like at all.  For example I think 1:72 is too large to have flat grab handles and depression rails.  

The fun thing about PT's is that the crews made due with what they could get their hands on.  Here's the link to my build.  I thoroughly enjoyed building this model and hope you do as well.

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/patrol/pt109-72-dw/dw-index.html

Dave

Tracy White

Actually most of their claimed hits were either erroneous or for a ship of a type heavier ... the minelayer was claimed as a sunk cruiser. I usually use the listed event as a starting point and try filtering through the CombinedFleet.com TROMs for confirmation or extra information.  I've been pecking away at a "Daily history of the USN PT boat for about a year off and on. I treat each claim as a hint to start digging, but probably more false than truth.

RE: Surigao straight. My notes read:

800x600 Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

October 25, 1944, 39 PT boats take part in the battle of Surigao Straight; The light cruiser Abukuma was crippled by a torpedo hit by PT-137. PT-493 was damaged by gunfire and beached, later sinking. All told, PT casualties were three killed and 20 wounded.

Actually most of their claimed hits were either erroneous or for a ship of a type heavier ... the minelayer was claimed as a sunk cruiser. I usually use the listed event as a starting point and try filtering through the CombinedFleet.com TROMs for confirmation or extra information.  I've been pecking away at a "Daily history of the USN PT boat for about a year off and on. I treat each claim as a hint to start digging, but probably more false than truth.

RE: Surigao straight. My notes read:

800x600 Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

October 25, 1944, 39 PT boats take part in the battle of Surigao Straight; The light cruiser Abukuma was crippled by a torpedo hit by PT-137. PT-493 was damaged by gunfire and beached, later sinking. All told, PT casualties were three killed and 20 wounded.

Tracy White

Manstein's revenge:

in fact, I challenge anyone to reference a torp strike from a US PT on an enemy destroyer or larger...in the pacific...

Are you just "fish"ing for interesting boats to do? 

There were certainly more targets earlier in the war; one of the reasons the PT boats started carrying more guns later was that they were running into more barges than actual destroyers, but there were definitely hits on all sorts of larger vessels, including:

PT-34 hit a freighter in Binanga Bay, Philippine Islands, Jan 18 1942
PT-41 hit a small freighter near Subic Bay, Philippine Islands, Jan 24, 1942
PT-32 hits IJN Minelayer Yaeyama with a dud torpedo  February 1 1942
PT-34 hits IJN cruiser Kuma on the bow with a dud torpedo, April 8, 1942

That's just from text searching for "hit" on "At Close Quarters."

WEM's customer service is a great place to start if you suspect a problem...

 

 

But, I still stick to my premise since in most navies a minelayer/minesweeper is lower in pecking order than a destroyer, and even if that weren't true---how'd they know they scored a hit if it was a dud...??? I know subs can hear dud-strikes through underwater listening, but a PT boat?  I dare say it was a case of over-claiming in the heat of battle...

EdGrune

Manstein's revenge:

 I challenge anyone to reference a torp strike from a US PT on an enemy destroyer or larger...in the pacific... 

 

Battle of Surigao Strait

Manstein's revenge

in fact, I challenge anyone to reference a torp strike from a US PT on an enemy destroyer or larger...in the pacific...

Are you just "fish"ing for interesting boats to do? 

There were certainly more targets earlier in the war; one of the reasons the PT boats started carrying more guns later was that they were running into more barges than actual destroyers, but there were definitely hits on all sorts of larger vessels, including:

PT-34 hit a freighter in Binanga Bay, Philippine Islands, Jan 18 1942
PT-41 hit a small freighter near Subic Bay, Philippine Islands, Jan 24, 1942
PT-32 hits IJN Minelayer Yaeyama with a dud torpedo  February 1 1942
PT-34 hits IJN cruiser Kuma on the bow with a dud torpedo, April 8, 1942

That's just from text searching for "hit" on "At Close Quarters."

WEM's customer service is a great place to start if you suspect a problem...

Manstein's revenge

 I challenge anyone to reference a torp strike from a US PT on an enemy destroyer or larger...in the pacific... 

Battle of Surigao Strait

Tracy White

Manstein's revenge:

I'll bet most boats carried torps for months w/o firing them in anger...maybe years in some cases...

No, they would have been pulled for maintenance and inspection on a regular basis even if not used. Bad designs and admiral's egos non-withstanding, the Navy took  dim view on ordnance that didn't work when the time came to use it. Months is possible, but not years.

By the way, got the WE PE set (2 frets)...pretty nice, but was let down a bit by the instructions which don't seem to reference all of the pieces on both frets---wonder if I was short-changed a sheet? man, that Revell boat still can be made nice, considering its age!

Manstein's revenge

I'll bet most boats carried torps for months w/o firing them in anger...maybe years in some cases...

No, they would have been pulled for maintenance and inspection on a regular basis even if not used. Bad designs and admiral's egos non-withstanding, the Navy took  dim view on ordnance that didn't work when the time came to use it. Months is possible, but not years.

Jon_a_its

Interesting....

Seems to me that torpedos were.... consumables.... & would be fresher than the boats?

 

Interesting....

Seems to me that torpedos were.... consumables.... & would be fresher than the boats?

So whatever colo(u)rs you paint the torpedos you are likely to be as right as wrong....

Reminds me of a phrase... " EVERYTHING is TRUE..... just not all at the same time... or to the same people...."

Manstein's revenge

I wonder what the pont was to just painting the head???  The world wonders...

  My guess is that since the warheads were interchangeable on the torpedoes, that it made identification of the type easier. And, I am only speculating, since the after section was bronze or brass or whatever and being non-ferrous and not subect to rust, they didn't need to be painted. It is hard to keep paint on brass in my experience, so why bother?

  And now, I shall sit back and see my theories torpedoed by more learned members of the forum.

I wonder what the pont was to just painting the head???  The world wonders...

steves

Torpedo colors are problematic. 

You are quite correct.  I also clean failed to take into considerations just how different 'net images can be from the actual appearance.

So, let me admit mea maxima culpa here, I foolishly reacted to that cartridge-brass color without thinking that through.  I've seen that gleam in the photos of '13's being leaded into a/c; racked on PT ought be no different.

That, and I may like fooling with multiple metallic finishes too much.

PTConsultingNHR

 The bodies were left in their "natural state" but heavily greased and the warheads (for the Mark XIIIs) were painted to either match the base color of whatever scheme the boat was painted in or to match whatever area of the  scheme that they were in front of.

I was also told that the torpedoes which were fired from tubes had their bodies left natural as well and greased but had their warheads painted to indicate whatever type of explosive that was in the warhead.

Garth

Based on contemporary photos, some boats did have MK13s with warheads painted boat colors, while others did not.  For example:

Practice warheads on MK13s were painted yellow.

Tech specs for the MK8s fired from the tubes indicate the only explosive with which they were filled was TNT, so color differences based on explosive type seems unlikely.  MK13s were filled with TPX.

Al Ross 

Well, I am often criticized for believing this and saying this; but it is something that I have been told, both by vets, and fellow Historians,  but ... here goes nunthin' (he says whilst putting on a helmet and donning body-armor and raising shields) ...

The torpedoes were ...

The bodies were left in their "natural state" but heavily greased and the warheads (for the Mark XIIIs) were painted to either match the base color of whatever scheme the boat was painted in or to match whatever area of the  scheme that they were in front of.

I was also told that the torpedoes which were fired from tubes had their bodies left natural as well and greased but had their warheads painted to indicate whatever type of explosive that was in the warhead.

Garth

CapnMac82

 My only quibble would be the torpedoes--but, that's from reading Hellions of the Deep,  which describes just how long it took to get mass-produced torpedoes into USN inventory.  And, even then, most were still nearly built one-piece at a time.  The parts were matched only at final assembly at the base torpedo shop, so the tail fins might be from different runs, the motor section another, the body from still another.

A modeler almost has an excuse to use the entire metallics line of their favorite paint line, really.

Torpedo colors are problematic.  I based the ones on the model on a couple color photos of Mk 13s I found on the internet with bronze colored afterbodies and grey painted warheads.  I read later that the bronze color was more likely due to the preservative applied rather than the color of  the metal itself.

No Manstein ...

Many PTs were green ...... If you want to do a specific boat in a specific time/location - what is the time frame are you thinking of?  Do you want added weaponry?  Radar?  Torpedo tubes?  Roll-off racks?

The 109 and her near sisters in her squadron and the early squadrons were a single color scheme ...

Garth

I BELIEVE that Navy Green is a darker shade of green.  I was told by a PT vet that Navy Green was very similar to Olive Drab Green.  In fact, he once told me that the green used on some USPS mailboxes was the same green that they used as Navy Green.

Steve Sobieralski really knows his stuff, take it from me.

Garth

The other model is PT559

Quite pretty.  My only quibble would be the torpedoes--but, that's from reading Hellions of the Deep,  which describes just how long it took to get mass-produced torpedoes into USN inventory.  And, even then, most were still nearly built one-piece at a time.  The parts were matched only at final assembly at the base torpedo shop, so the tail fins might be from different runs, the motor section another, the body from still another.

A modeler almost has an excuse to use the entire metallics line of their favorite paint line, really.

Was she the only PT Boat painted green---or was the entire unit 109 belonged to in this measure?

Here is a link to two conversions of the 1/35 Italeri PT596 kit that I built, one of which is PT109:

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/misc/patrol/pt-35-ss/ss-index.html

There is probably a lot more that we don't know about PT109's actual appearance than we do know, but one thing that is generaly accepted is that she was painted overall some shade of green.  Whether this was an official navy shade or a "homebrew" mixed from what was available is open to question.  I chose a color that looked good to me, and I don't thnk a modeler can go very wrong using some shade of medium green.  Certainly using tropical green or navy green would not be incorrect.

The other model is PT559, which was a Mediterranean boat painted in the Thayer blue scheme that Garth mentioned.

PTConsultingNHR

 

She was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green.   

Yeah, 109 presents some problems.

A truly accurate model of 109, especially in her last few days would not much look like a professional model.

It would be a very boring monochrome, as well.

A person would almost have to depict some other portion of her 'Ron, if only to show that the depiction of 109 is "meant" to look that way.

Oh, her ...........

She was either overall Tropical Green or overall Navy Green.  Based on handwritten letters which I received in the early 80s, from the, then, four surviving members of the 109's last crew, I'd use Navy Green, but ... it's YOUR model, use what you think is good.

Garth

How much "reveal" there was from using  a powder impulse system couild be subject to some question.

Especially since the preferred attack method is in the dark of night, at full speed.

So, any "flash" or "smoke" from the torpedo launching would be in contrast to the .50 cal covering fire and a bow wave of a significant size.  Remember, at the high speed setting (46kt) the engagement range was one to two miles (4000 yards).

Now, as to how other navies' PTs had on-deck torpedoes, those are reloads.  As a design strategy (or a requirement of the launcher) the tubes required more infrastructure, and were fixed.  Just with reloads ready to roll into the launchers.  Theoretically, the all-up weight is less, only two launchers plus the reloading gear, vice nn launchers with one load apiece.

But, the weight of the launchers, and all the supplies to launch and aim them is one of the reasons US PTs went to roll-off Mk13 torps--being aerial torpedoes, the 3' drop from a 40kt PT simpler than a 100' drop from a 140kt torpedo plane.

PTConsultingNHR

Which measure?   

Which measure?  31/5P or the Thayer Blue System?

31/5P had a base  color  of I believe Navy Green which had irregular patterns of I think (either) Tropical Green or Ocean Green, and I believe Ocean Green would be the more likely one.  The patterns had soft edges to it.  And, I believe it had deck green decks as well.

The Thayer Blue System was overall Thayer Blue and had Deck Blue decks and all horizontal surfaces also had Deck Blue ...

The boats of PT Ron 29 (which carried this scheme) had a yellow colored triangular shaped panel (for air recognition purposes) which was three feet long, going from the forepeak back ...

Additionally, some of the Ron 29 boats (two to three feet long/wide) had a red stripe on the deck aft.

Garth

White Ensign makes a paint in thier enamel Colourcoats line that is, in fact, MTB Green.  If you are ok with enamel paints their's is the best I've found and their line of World War 2 colors, not only U.S. but also IJN, RN, DKM, is spot on for accuracy as far as I can tell.  FYI

Bob