Merit PT

Hey Al, I've long said that the fastest way to find out where you are wrong is to post on the internet! It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong, as the saying goes.

But, I think we're all better for learning, so I always try to be happy when I learn something, even when I smack my forehead and gnash my teeth first!

Back in June, I said that the raised portion around the perimeter of the deck on the Merit pt 596 was an error.  I was wrong; sorry guys.  Some of my friends on the PT BOAT FORUM (Tracy White and Jeff Davidson, in particular) provided photos and drawings that demonstrated there was a raised portion on the later boats.  If you'd like to follow the discussion, go here:  www.ptboatforum.com/.../netboardr.cgi

Al Ross

Indeed Plasticjunkie.

I agree Garth. The kit looks pretty impressive, specially the quality  of the weapons. The fins on the Mk. 13s can easily be corrected. The other stuff mentioned really doesn't bother me and should make one fine looking display model.

I think ship modelers will enjoy building this kit... Not only because of its more manageable size and its level of detail ...

I should point out that in his post above, Mr. Ross has stated that the antenna trunk on the real PT-588 was rectangular, however, I recently saw a photograph posted on FSM of the port side of the cockpit, dayroom area of the real 588 and the photo clearly shows the antenna trunk being rounded.

Guys, this kit is really good and, in my own opinion, is better than the 1:35 monster from Italeri.

Garth

The cable on the 588 boat is not a permanent fixture. It's not painted for one, and it is also not fastened down. I have a higher-resolution copy of what Al posted and it's very apparent that it is not permanently affixed. I have no similar such scans for the 596 boat.

The antenna trunk on 588 is rounded.  

www.navsource.org/.../120558802.jpg

The cable looks to be present on certain boats. Could have been as part of different electronic equipment on board. I have the Squadron PT Boats in Action book and page 30 shows a picture of PT 588 with this cable. Then there's another boat pictured on page 31 without the cable.

alross2

The kit has a double raised line running along the top of the day cabin roof that ends in an oval on the aft bulkhead of the day cabin.  In this photo, you can see the bitter end of the line on the deck.

The kit has a double raised line running along the top of the day cabin roof that ends in an oval on the aft bulkhead of the day cabin.  In this photo, you can see the bitter end of the line on the deck.  Also, if you look at the photo of 593, you will see the cable is not there.

Al Ross

alross2

d. The day cabin roof has a non-existent cable run along its centerline.  This does not appear on the ELCO drawings nor photos of boats in the series.  In the accompanying photo of the 588 boat, it’s clear this is just a line laying on top of the roof.

Thanks Garth

One thing modelers should consider, and that is something which the late, great Alex Johnson who built my models of PT-171, 174 and 59 once told me, and he was not one to make an accuracy error, especially regarding PTs. ...

The warheads were also painted to match the scheme the boats wore ... if they were in one of the schemes that had green in it, then, they'd would be painted a green, a gray based scheme - gray warheads and if they were in the Thayer Blue system - they were painted to match.

Garth

Thanks Al. Those are great pictures!

The bodies were covered in a petroleum-based substance to keep them from rusting.  From the few contemporary color photos I've seen, this covering gave the bodies a somewhat brassish tone.  This shot i73.photobucket.com/.../mk13p.jpg shows a practice torpedo (yellow warhead) being launched.   This one (gray warhead) i73.photobucket.com/.../mk13torpedocolor-2-1.jpg shows a live weapon.

Some MK13s appear to have been painted, particularly the warhead.  You really have to decide which boat at what time you want to depict and find some photos of it.

Al Ross

Al

Thanks for pointing out the errors. I have yet to encounter a kit without a bunch ore errors so it's nothing new. I have bookmarked your info for future building use.

I finally opened mine a few minutes ago and just looking over it, must say that the quality is very good with sharp details. The railings look to be about scale which is usually a problem when molded in plastic. IMO, I see no need for any pe detailing but that is up to the individual. I do like the included display plastic plate. I did notice something different with the color call outs so you clarified that. Would be nice to follow this one up with a Higgins boat.

Do you have any references for the torpedo colors? I wonder if the 13's were greased to improve underwater performance?  

Meaningless descriptions such as “Late Type” aside, it appears that the Merit kit is supposed to depict a 565-624 series 80’ ELCO.  Overall, the kit compares reasonably well to the original ELCO drawings, but contains a number of rather curious errors that could be addressed to make it a more accurate model.  

Some of the more obvious problems include:

a. The kit hull has a straight sheer; the real boat had a subtle S curve.

b. The kit deck has a raised lip simulating the margin plank around its perimeter; on the real boat the margin plank’s top was flush with the top of the decking.

c. The side windows on the chart house are too far above the deck.

d. The day cabin roof has a non-existent cable run along its centerline.  This does not appear on the ELCO drawings nor photos of boats in the series.  In the accompanying photo of the 588 boat, it’s clear this is just a line laying on top of the roof.

e. On the kit, the antenna trunk on the port side of the cockpit is round; on the real boat, it is rectangular.

f. The fins on the kit torpedoes are angular at both ends; on the actual MK13s. they are radiused on the leading edge.

g. The box top art is full of errors and has no value as a reference.

h. The kit’s painting guide supposedly shows Measure 31/20L, but the colors are wrong.  The real pattern used two greens (Green 2, Green 3) and black on vertical surfaces, Deck Green (20-G) on horizontal surfaces.

For what it’s worth, the first five errors listed are also on the 1/35 Italeri PT 596 kit.  

Photographs of the 588 boat at the ELCO plant prior to being placed in service that illustrate some of these observations can be found here:  s73.photobucket.com/.../PT588

Al Ross

Geez, I winked and missed some great exchanges here. Very interesting and informative thread.

BJ you beat me to it with the Packard info. I have a book titled "US Navy PT Boats Of WWII" and has tons of info and pictures, many of partial interior details. I do believe the resin am stuff will be coming down the road, as CMK is coming out with interior and exterior details for the new release of the Type IX U Boat. I suspect other companies will follow with some great goodies.

Now my wife claimed the package as my Father's Day Gift and cannot be opened till Sunday. I love anticipation!

Here's some great info broken down to 3 parts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tQP3s9DIQ&feature=youtu.be

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuyA84QXKs

I would guess the engine is a large diesel?

Would you be willing to at least double the price for that feature though?

As I recall, the standard PT boat propulsion plant consisted of three big diesel engines. To reproduce the interior at an acceptable standard for 1/48 scale would require hundreds of parts - and such a kit undoubtedly would cost hundreds of dollars.

The last few posts got me thinking. Apart from the old, notorious Renwal and Revell nuclear subs, and a couple of Revell U-boats, has there EVER been a styrene ship or boat model with a detailed engine room and interior spaces?

A "cutaway" PT boat would be a fascinating kit. So would a cutaway destroyer or battleship. But I don't think it's reasonable to expect one any time soon. (On the other hand, given the pace of advances in the industry these days, who knows?)

BigJim,

With a highly anticipated release in a very popular scale - best scale suited for a 80' boat that many modellers will add figures and set in a vignette or diorama.

You can bet the after market is all ready working on interior detail sets and the engine, I would guess the engine is a large diesel? If anyone knows the exact motor it maybe currently available or easily converted from a different application.

Going one step further this would make a great R/C boat, would not be surprised if a kit to convert this model is in the works.

Not that I need more unbuilt model kits but... if I decide to take on a boat this will be the one!  

there is no thorough "walk around" set of photos of interior spaces

Tracy,
The Squadron Series PT Boat "Walkaround" seems to have a good section on the crew interior spaces. There are some drawings from, I think that it was "The Floating Drydock"*, that would be helpful too. So, it is not as though it is a mission impossible. *(Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I don't have my drawings at the tip of my fingers at this time)

Granted, the engine room would be a little more difficult, but, for the most part from lack of information and depending on what level of detail to provide. Engines should not be a problem as there are plenty on the aircraft side of modeling. Maybe the engine room from the PT in the above mentioned book could have some more pictures taken around 360 degrees. I think the information is out there. Someone just has get up and go find it. If I was in a position that would allow me to photograph the interior of that boat, I would do it myself.

The problem is that most CAD people DON'T KNOW what those parts are, they're just reproducing shapes. Same goes with the graphics people who build the instructions.

Let's don't blame the CAD/Graphics people. It is not up to the CAD or Graphics folks. I would tend to think that they are just sitting at their posts doing what is asked of them. It is up to the Project Manager or someone higher up that would, preferably, have a passion for the project to provide the needed information.

BigJim

My opinion is that it would have been better if the parts had been labeled with their names along with the part number.

I see this asked for somewhat regularly. The problem is that most CAD people DON'T KNOW what those parts are, they're just reproducing shapes. Same goes with the graphics people who build the instructions.

BigJim

One other thought. It would have been a real treat if a complete engine room and interior spaces were included.

Would you be willing to at least double the price for that feature though? It would take a LOT more research and then CAD and molding to pull off. I've been through the PT files at the National Archives - there is no thorough "walk around" set of photos of interior spaces. There are some random shots, but is a photo of one corner of, say, the galley, enough to reconstruct the entire thing in plastic?

BJ

Mine arrived a few days ago but we just got from vacation and haven't had time to check yet due to other pressing issues around the house. Hopefully sometime in the next couple of days I can take a peek and see things. I'm not too concerned about the lack of info that you mentioned since I have reference material left over from a 5 ft radio control PT Boat project I was doing some years back which will come in handy, just have to locate it.

Mine arrived tonight. I've only had a chance for a very quick look over. The instruction book seems to be adequate to spartan. There is no history of the boats provided. My opinion is that it would have been better if the parts had been labeled with their names along with the part number. Also there are no color codes for painting each part. There is a single sheet color guide showing the top and side views, however, it is printed so dark as to be almost useless.

Parts seem to be molded crisply and from just a cursory glance, this appears that it will build into a very nice model. Just have your reference material handy when choosing your paint.

One other thought. It would have been a real treat if a complete engine room and interior spaces were included.

Just got confirmation from Freetime that my PT Boat shipped. Will post once I get it and check it out.

Sir, ... WILL DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garth,

I currently exist in the blazing hot desert called the Phoenix metro area.  Interesting place for a naval historian.....  Please let me know when Stan finishes the build, I would love to see it.

Steve

Thanks Steve, but I have already talked to Stan, he agreed to do it ... I just have to find time to get it over there ........ but, thanks for the offer - where are you located anyway.