"Correct" Color for an Early Elco 80' PT Boat/South Pacific Theater?

Link to that review.

Not to be a nit, but the cover photo is of a model, right?

That's not a credible source. Is there any source known that the modeler referred to?

Yes, .. that is the Italeri 596 kit backdated to the 103-196 series and done in the Adapter Scheme ... if I remember - the write up in that book about the model on the cover explains about the scheme.  Interesting book though, a good reference book - better than any of my stuff, hands-down.

A source?  There are a few.

Al Ross

Maybe www.pt103.com has something?

Would Snyder & Short have anything?

Go to www.ptboatforum.com and ask there ...

Contact PT BOATS INC at ptboatshq@gmail.com ...

Here is an original ELCO drawing for one iteration of the original gray/white/black Adaptor scheme:  i73.photobucket.com/.../adaptor_zpsmmxjehhg.jpg

David Swasey, a camofleur at ELCO describes the green version:  "...we used a light yellow green as the base instead of the white, retaining the black stripes as before".

There are four B&W photos of some of the green boats on ATASCOSA (AO66) at www.navsource.org , one of which is shown here:

i73.photobucket.com/.../091906603_zpsepdehxvv.jpg

Notice how light the non-black areas are compared to the green paint on the model on the book cover.  It would seem the model color is quite different from that actually used on the real boats  I suspect that the actual color was more like 5LG or 5PG, but that's strictly a guess.

Al Ross

Chun's "American PT Boats of World War II"  includes a copy of the ELCO Adapter Scheme drawing (stbd side only).

Chun states that the adapter scheme was ineffective in the Pacific.  The crew quickly painted over the stripes with dark green.  "The only area the zebra pattern was used was in the Mediterranean".  

So that lets out the zebra as meeting the original poster's South Pacific needs.

Chun also has several zebra photos not generally seen.

The previously cited "Allied Torpedo Boats" by Lambert & Brown shows photos of several different adapter schemes and state that 'no two Adapter patterns were exactly alike'.      Further they state that the only users of the black & white version were Higgins boats of Squadron 15 in the Mediterranean.

Once again the Mediterranean lets out the OP's  South Pacific needs.

GMorrison:  The text which accompanies Shaun Symonds build shown in Lambert & Browns book indicates that he used  Gator Mask masks to paint the pattern.

An alternate source of the pattern may come from eCardModels.   They offer a 1:48 paper model of an 80' ELCO in zebra.    Use some creative Xerography to blow the paper model up to 1:35 -- then cut the stripes and apply as masks.   A water-soluable glue stick (grade school item) is good to temporarily attach paper strips as hard-edge masks

Edit :  Al's drawing is port & starbord views of the item I referenced in Chun

Acdtually, at least three of the RON10 boats carried the Adaptor scheme into combat.  Chun has photos of 166 burning after a friendly fire incident on 7/20/43 and AT CLOSE QUARTERS has a photo of 164 with her bow blown off by a Japanese bomb at Rendova on 8/1/43.  Both boats (plus one accompanying 166) are in the Adaptor scheme.

Al Ross

I think that they painted out the adapter stripes (i.e. the entire boat) with dark green. They didn't paint out the white stripes with green as the model seems to suggest.

In this instance?  I'd listen to Al and Ed.

But, may I ask a couple of questions of Dr. Ross about this?

Al, I lost my copy of that Swasey document which Alyce Guthrie sent me a few years ago, ... what did he say, exactly, about that yellow and green variation of the scheme?

Another question, Al?  With that variation, would the boats have Deck Green decks?

Al, above - you said that, at least 3 of RON 10's boat carried the Adapter Scheme into action.  Do you think/believe that the 174 did as well?  The reason I am asking; I have seen a 'famous' photo of the 174 in a Green scheme, running at speed - fitted with the shielded 40mm which was fitted to the foredeck after her arrival in theater, and one or both of  her machine gun turrets have its/their canvas cover(s) ... if memory serves, one of the covers had stripes on it - which tells me they were dyed to match the scheme.

What do you think?

Thank you,

Tim

Dr. Ross, I think the 167 carried it into action as well.  Remember that famous photo of her with the hole in her bow from the un-exploded Japanese torpedo launched by a torpedo bomber?  She was wearing stripes too.

Gentlemen,

I want to thank all of you for the input and help.  I do have all the books listed for my research as well as "Hunters in the Shallows" by Curtis L. Nelson. All good material and it is good to know that I was heading in the "right" direction.

I received my ColourCoats paint today from Warships Hobbies and checked them to the Snyder and Short Paint Chips to see what was what. The MTB color was a match for Green#2 so that will be the base color for the Later Version model. The Tropcial Green has a blueish tint to it but I think it will do the trick especially after weathering her.

I was able to sand down the seam on the torpedo tubes today after filling the minimal seam with Mr. Surfacer 1000, my LHS was out of 500. I think it actually did the trick better than the 500 due to the slightness of the seam. They look great after a coat of primer now. As I said earlier, I am impressed with the fit of the parts so far except for the gap on the forward starboard side gun turret where it connects to the charthouse.

Anyway, thank you again for all the input, I really appreciated it. Who knows, after finishing this kit and the later version, I might have to do an Atlantic or Mediterranean version.

Steve

OK I know that this may sound simplistic but..... the movie PT 109 was filmed in color. John Kennedy watched the movie while he was president and was impressed with the accuracy and detail used in creating the film.  Since he was there and approved wouldn't it make sense that the colors used on the PT Boats in the film reflected the true colors of the deployed PT's ?

Just a thought

Doc Hu

Dr. Hu

wouldn't it make sense that the colors used on the PT Boats in the film reflected the true colors of the deployed PT's ?

Sorry, but no. Unless Kennedy was trained in color theory before the war there's no way that's anywhere close to being useful.

I don't know. Some of us vets can be pretty good about colors, even without formal training in color theory.

No problem, Steve.  Glad to have helped ... but, my advice?  Listen to Dr. Ross.

No, it didn't .... and don't take that film as an accurate gospel account.

What Tracy said, doubled.

I asked my father in law what colors the Beaufighter was that he flew for the USAAF in Tunisia. Now mind, this is a pretty arcane question because there is scant information on reverse lend lease aircraft in 1942.

"How the hell would I know? I was too busy climbing in and out of the damn thing!".

And Stikpusher, there's a very good reason why you are an active participant in a model and history discussion forum- you notice stuff around you. Most people don't.

I guess all those years of IPMS before I joined the Army paid off ;) I had a serious idea of FS colors, camo patterns, and related things already in my head by the time I arrived at Benning. The modeler inside me noticed all sorts of stuff from day 1 there. I know most GIs didn't care about such things, but I did.