Small scale, Large scale?

Ah the glorious problems of suppositional calcualtions.

Bay in the far distant past, I was taught all this and our first problem we were given was to calculate the bouyancy of Queequeg's coffin (Y'know, the one TanerBuilder carved ).

see, 24 x 4 x 2.5 is but 240cf, or, about 100cf after factoring for the actual hull shape (not voodoo, just aweighted geometric product of a volume of aproximately half and ellipse and a bit of hyperbole).

The 100 cf displaces 6500# salt water; the vessel, though, not being soild, might weigh but 12 or 14 hundredweight.  Old warship scantilings were quite stout, easily being 1-1.5' thick and to 45pcf oa and hardwood. 

Or in considerable excess of modern dimension.  If a 1" x 4" frame with 1/2" thick hull would be but 0.833 cf. 

Calculators are dry dull things.

I guess the point being suggested is what your boat " doesn't" weigh.

She may very well weigh less than a ton. But her displacement at that weight given her length and beam wouldn't be much more than a foot.

Keep up the good work and good luck.

Hi all

@ Daniel. She is currently in Chertsey surrey (U.K) You are most welcome to visit, though currently we are still building a shed around her. Work will not start on the hull, save for remedial work to prevent further deterioration, until I have finished the house boat, sometime next year.

Actually started work on the quarter deck rail this week (will take some pics later and post them up) As I can sit and watch telly whilst working :) I can`t be accused of starting, before finishing "my upstairs"! Started with the belfry canopy which was in several pieces and missing parts. I`m still debating if it will be better to remake parts in hard wood or restore what I have and paint/grain it, followed by several coats of clear epoxy. At the moment I tend to run with the latter as I`m quite keen to save as much of the original as possible. I will restore the quarter deck rail complete with its water channel, belfry, sheaves, timberheads and canopy supports. If I`m not happy with the results...then back to the drawing board and remake I guess.

@ CapnMac..I`m afraid your suppositional figures may be a little too..er..supositional? My maths is non existent, but, as a marine engineer, I have worked with small craft for 38 years or there abouts. I would reckon she goes 3 quarter of a ton at the very most. Our tare indicator is playing up at the moment so I can`t give an accurate figure, but 2 men and a sledge hammer can move her easily on her keel chocks. We run a fleet of hire boats, one of which is a 26ft steel built, narrow boat with 3 inches of concrete throughout. She totals 6 tons in weight and we use her to push pilings into the river in the lifting strops. If your calculations are correct, then my boat will actually be heavier. I just can`t see this. At any rate, I will use the age old method of pig iron, plastic sheets and concrete with lifting eyes to make shaped ballast. This will give me removable ballast, with a flat upper surface. When the time comes I will report back. If your calculations are correct I will gladly concede the point.

It will be a fair while before we reach this point. Though I don`t anticipate hull works will take a great deal of time, the detail work will. I need to fabricate 20 cannon and carriage complete with breechings, tackle and eyebolts etc and missing/rotten parts too numerous to list.

I will post some pics later of wip on the belfry and *** rail. If anybody has images of forward riding bits and supports etc, from any vessel, I would love to see them. I have some curved timbers I believe are supports from the fore deck riding gear, but I am missing the bits and cross piece it seems.

Andy

GMorrison

Capnmac can do the math in his head

GMorrison is far too kind--I require a calculator to be truly efficient.

Displacement is middling easy, though.  Take  LWL, WL Beam, and WL draft and multiply them all together.  Take that product and multiply about 0.6.  That resultant volume is multiplied by the weight of water per volume unit used.

Let's preseume aan LWL of 24, a beam of 6, and a draft of 3.  That gives us 432 c.f. I will use a form factor of 0.44 (from reading too much H.I.CHappel).  That renders 190 c.f.

190 cf displaces 12,350# of salt water (65#/cf) or 11,837# of fresh (62.3pcf), or as GMorrison astutely points out, about 5-6 short tons

Will wager you that the hull & structure are about a ton, which gives quite a bit of reserve bouyancy. 

Or, at least that's what my calculaotr tells me, using very suppositional numbers.

Just wondering where is the restoration taking place? I want to see if I can stop in and see her. Thanks.

She floated perfectly. The hull itself is built in the traditional manner and remains well caulked.

I believe this link shows her in the middle

http://www.gaiahealthblog.com/wordpress1/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/hornblower1.jpg

I think several tons of ballast would probably put her on the bottom! I will use the age old method of suck it and see to trim her out correctly and hold her in the lifting strops until I`m happy. Thankfully my boss is a sailor in the true sense of the word and he is just itching to try her out. I have experience sailing, but I rely on his help and advise in this case.

All below the waterline will be cask over with 3 layers of GRP at any rate and I will run an extra rib in between each of the frames so she will be strong. 

Hull work etc is not a problem for me as that is my job..my big issue is with the upper works and detailing..that is the start of the slope I need to climb.

Do you have a link to your post? I would love to check it out. At this point I am pretty much still at the working out stage, so any ideas are welcome.

Andy

Humm, better keep that Stearns Bouyant handy.

i have no idea if she actually floated in water in the movie, but ballasting her will be a trick.

Capnmac can do the math in his head, but I'd guess several tons displacement easy, like a sailboat about that size. And no doubt all this trotting around on land, whatever weight was in the hull has been long discarded.

The Vikings had a neat little toggle spliced into their stays. 

Replicated it on my model what was posted last year.

kind of a hinged clasp, held closed by a length of m a r li ne or whatever they called it. Quick tug and the whole thing popped open.

You have a good handle on how to proceed, without a doubt.

My thinking was that, rather than have two steering solutions, keep it simple.  Sort out the rudder the once (consider that you may need about 20% more surface than "to scale").

If the rudder works, then, you ust need to get the trolling motor fixed into place.  Which, to me, suggested a tube about the size of the shaft of the motor, topped out at or ust above LWL, and fitted as a stuffing box top & bottom.  Fit it ro port of the centerline, and you'd conteract some of the right-hand bias a single prop has backing down, and the off-center thrust going ahead is ust a rudder trim issue.

As to providing for sleep--leave a space for a backpack & sleeping bag ought suffice

Thanks CapnMac that explanation of scale is brilliant. I think we arrived at our figure by assuming 2.5" equals 1ft therefore 2.5x8=20" x 2.54=50.8cm (not really sure why we had 50.4 in there at all tbh) Using your scale calculations I can see that we are out by over a cm, which is a pain as the drawings have already been done..oh well back to the drawing board.

The builders already included a clever way of stepping and striking the masts with a quick release mechanism at the channels and main stays etc etc. I haven`t played with the masts and rigging yet, but intentions are to restore and fit up to the first fighting tops to start with. I should at least clear most bridges between  me and the sea like that.

I have considered a hinge and tube affair..we call it a junk rig in this country I think..but as I have a crane and other lifting gear at my disposal, I will probably go with the original method of stepping. They will probably only come down at the end of the season or second season.

I plan on fitting the prop of the trolling motor above the keel so touching bottom won`t be an issue. I will fix hinges to the shaft of the motor so I can use the existing pintels. That way if I want the rudder I just lift the motor inboard through the rudder hole and drop the rudder down in its place. Some quick release job will let me attach the steering ropes to either, which in turn will let me use the scale wheel to steer with if needed.

There won`t be a lot of head room below, crawling space only really, so sleeping  and other domestic arrangements will need to be.....imaginative! I`m confident I will get it all in with some trial and error.

She will be sailed from the spar deck, or rather by standing in the bottom of the boat through the gratings on the spar deck. This way I can kneel down when needed and should be nearly invisible.

Andy

Andy B.

1:1 plan of a 6 pound cannon and carriage. I worked it out to be 50.4 cm to represent the full 8 foot length of the gun. Any body care to check my maths.

8'-0" = 96" x 2.54 = 243.84cm / 5 = 48.768cm at 1/5 scale.

A "simple" scale factor will help you as you move along.  7.5" = 36" renders as 2.5" = 1'-0" which yields 1:4.8 scale.  Keeping track of 1/4.8 would be a pain, though.  Using 1/5 would give us that 7.5" equalling 37.5" which would not be horrible. 

Now, an argument could be made that the 7.5" is meant to equal 2'-6", that would be 1/4 scale, or the architectural scale of 3" = 1'-0"   But, I'd wager the original Russian builders used a metric-friendly scale like 1cm = 5cm, or 1:5.

I'd be inclined to let the rudder be the rudder, and use a fixed trolling motor passed through a vertical stuffing box somewhere right aft.  Which would also be an advantage if you wanted to ground here on a beach and let her careen  with the tide.

I'll guess you'll want to be able to strike all the masts, which suggests needing rigging that can be struck as well.  Saw, down in the Leeward Islands many a year ago, a "pirate schooner" set up in deadeyes.   But, with a twist.  The rigging was actually on turnbuckles with a deadeye at either end.  The lanyard covered up the actual turnbuckle, but allowed the rigging to be mounted using middling-standard fitments.

Just my 2¢, you'll need a couple of quid of your own for coffee at starbucks.

Andy...Again, wonderful find.  I'm gealous.

Second...Personally if she wasn't built after any particular vessel but represents a generic type...then a great deal of stress can be eliminated if you build her generically.  Plus she will be your own creation.  Very few people are remotely educated enough to know the difference anyway.  This frees you up to name her and to build her as you wish in the typical manner...without all the historical trouble and accuracy issues.

This is what I would do...since the task to restor and rebuild her is a daunting one all of itself.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Rob

So here goes inc wall of text warning!!

She was built in 1997 in Russia for the series of Hornblower movies that were made (8 episodes I believe) She was designed and built by Martin Saville..or at least he oversaw the work. She was 1 of 11 fully functional and rigged models built for the series and at 26ft she is the largest.

I think the whole fleet was auctioned off in 2007 somewhere up in Scotland. What happened to her between then and now is shady. The guy I bought her off said there were 3 of the models in a field in Devon. He only got this one..then proceeded to leave it in a different field for another 3 years. Bearing in mind she was not built to last or live outside shes done pretty well. Slow grown Russian pine I guess.

I live and work in a boatyard so storage is not an issue :) nor is the heavy work on the hull..all this I can do. One big problem..I`m half way through extending the boat I live on and promises had to be made about finishing one thing before starting another blah blah. Of course the houseboat is being styled on..you guessed it..a galleon. In this case loosely on the Mary Rose. I did get `permission` to work on and restore the "little bits" over the winter so the front room is now "full of my c**p and no room for a christmas tree" they never learn lol.

Any way this is where I hope you guys can help. She was built to represent a generic ship of the Nelson era. However the external design was fashioned very much after The Blandford launched in 1720 and out of service by 1742.

To further complicate things she is a copy of the Grand Turk or Etoile du Roy as she is now named. The Grand Turk was completed specifically for the same series of Hornblower films.

The outside looks like the Blandford but the deck plan is utterly different. Sooo..what do I do?

1. Restore it and complete it to look like the Blandford

2. Restore it and complete it as per the Grand Turk

As the Grand Turk is readily available to take pics etc I`m kind of leaning that way.

If any one has pics of the Turk from visits etc I would really love to see them.

I think the basic plan is to restore what I can first, then focus on "beefing" up the detail. As I intend to use her some parts like the channels etc will of neccesity need to be made a little over scale to take the enevitable impacts she will get. I will fit her with a trolling motor where the rudder hangs. I figure I can disguise it fairly well as a rudder and it will be silent. Obviously the plan is to sail her as much as possible but a motor helps in close up situations.

If any one can provide me with deck plans, pics, ideas, anything I will be eternally grateful.

I already have a 1:1 plan of a 6 pound cannon and carriage. I worked it out to be 50.4 cm to represent the full 8 foot length of the gun. Any body care to check my maths. We based this as I said earlier on the quarter deck rail being 7.5 inches high and assume the full size rail will be about 3 ft. Once it is turned up I will strike a mold and turn out the 20 I need in good old polyester resin.

As I said any and all help is needed. I get the feeling that this is the start of a very steep learning curve for me!!

Andy

Andy..what a find...truly.

Strip her down and let us know how she goes.....I'd love to help in such an adventure.

Sail her too.....

Good luck.

Rob

Yeah !

  Just think , you could build a model workshop inside the thing !  T.B. 

Oh man that is so unbelievably cool! What a rush that would be to sail around on that!!

Hi Andy ;

 Aha ! It is indeed a large model . No Mantel for that baby ! Like Revenant , I have to ask , How did you come into possesion of such a find ? I believe  ,with careful planning you can bring her back . Good luck on the project .

    Years ago I tried this with a largish North Seas ferry model . Almost made it too . Fate intervened and it was destroyed when the truck transporting it was wrecked . I wasn't the least worried about the ship .The driver did survive a nasty head on with another rig !

 It was only fifty miles from where it was supposed to go . It was big enough to sit in and operate the two trolling motors that powered it ! Again I wish the best of luck .You'll need it !  T.B.

So how did you come into possession of this thing?  And why was it left in a field for twenty years?  Who originally built this ***?

Hi all

Here are a couple of pics to give some idea of size. Just tried them on the test forum and it worked, so fingers crossed.

First is a view of the spar deck with masts, rigging and fighting tops or what is left of them. There seems to be very little detail here.

Next is a view of how she looked a few years ago..sadly the transom has rotted since this pic and the mainmast has pretty much ceased to exist

I have started work on the small detail that I will save..belfry quarter deck rail etc and will try getting some pics up soon.

You can also view the album of pics so far.

http://s436.photobucket.com/user/sopwith1/library/Blanford

Mainly just pics as we picked her up

Some pics would be kinda nice...

Hi Andy ;

   This reminds me of the one that got away . Have you seen " Tora , Tora , Tora "? In the opening scene of Pearl Harbor you see the destroyer coming out after the minisub ? That destroyer languished on the front lawn of an antique shop for many years . I kept trying to buy it . The answer was always " No , I am going to restore it " .

    One day , driving by , I see the store is closed and the ship is gone . I stopped in and asked the nice lady where it went ." Oh , that old thing my husband bought "?  "I sent it to the dump along with a bunch of other stuff when he died "! Talk about being crushed .I hope you have better luck with yours . Oh ! and welcome aboard  !

Tanker - Builder

Hi all

Thanks for the rapid replies. I must agree the more I look into the project the bigger and more ambitious it seems to get. I am still at the stage of salvaging what detail I can from the bottom of the boat. It seems the fore deck and quarter deck detail were at one point fairly reasonable as they could be seen from a low camera angle. The spar deck however had very little. Cannon were strapped to blocks of wood with ties and velcro for remote firing and a large plywood hatch allowed access into the hull for batteries, wiring etc etc.

I have the bell (turned out of wood) many belay pins (very basic) but sadly no wheel or anything to do with the helm. Probably on a mantel in Devon somewhere!

I`m so pleased that at least one other person agrees with the 1:5 scale as that was the figure we tentatively arrived at

I really need to post some pics and thought I had on my opening post, but it seems copy pasting doesn`t work? What is the best way to include pics as I have many and a pic as they say is worth a thousand words.

Andy

Andy,

Welcome!  I sincerely believe that the modelers here are among the best anywhere!  We are always ready to help if we can.

I would also steer you to another site as well . . .  www.modelshipworld.com.  Many of us post there as well.

Again, welcome!

Bill Morrison

Hi Andy! Welcome to the Forums!

I wish you all the best with your project. You've come to the right place for help.

Will be watching closely. I like to build sailing ships once in a while as you can tell by my avatar. 

Jim  

Hello, Andy, and welcome! You have written, "From pics and standard measurements I believe that 7.5" equals 36" We worked this out from the quarter deck rail which stands at 7.5 inches, assuming that full size would be 3 ft high." If your estimation is accurate, your model would be approximately 1/5 scale. A build of that size will certainly be worthy of a great deal of attention! Wishing you only the very best on your project and greatly looking forward to seeing your progress. Please share photos when you can and do not hesitate to ask questions. There are a lot of very skilled and talented scale ship builders in this forum who are very generous in sharing their knowledge and experience. Again , welcome!

Oh -  my math skills are in the toilet, but the link below has been a valuable tool for me in my own projects. Give it a go.

http://www.scalemodelersworld.com/online-scale-converter-tool.html