Building a Imai/ Monogram 1/120 USS United States,,, great fun

Nino,

Many thanks for your reply.  Based on the drawings and contemporary paintings you sent, I'm about convinced that the United States had lost her roundhouse and stern gallery by the time she fought the Macedonian.  Presumably, that meant her poop as well, although (as you note) the figures near the stern in Thomas Birch's paintings do seem higher than those beside the quarterdeck carronades.  I've based my three frigates (Constitution, President, and eventual United States) on the paintings by Birch, Corné, and Antoine Roux; so I may as well be consistent.  Even Birch isn't entirely consistent!  What's with the different color schemes in the two paintings?  I'm inclined to think that for some reason (possibly disguise?) Decatur replaced the frigate's yellow ochre gunport stripe with two red stripes before the battle.  Was he imitating a specific ship?  (Java mistook Constitution for a Portuguese razee before their battle.)  Maybe later he--or someone--wanted Birch to depict United States in her more traditional colors.  All that is just a guess, of course.  One thing seems apparent: it will be almost impossible to replicate a seven-window stern on either of the Revell transoms I have available.  Constitution's has six windows; United States' has six below and five above.  (I recall people griping in an older thread about that staggered arrangment.)  If I go without the roundhouse, it should be easier to modify Constitution's transom than to eliminate the upper level from United States'.  Finally, thanks for the tip about Ed Zimmerman, whom I'll contact.  Judging from his earlier posts, I expect he'll insist that his beloved frigate's roundhouse was there along--and it definitely seems to have been there in Melville's day. Obviously, I've got a lot to think about before beginning work, but the information you've provided will be very helpful.  Thanks again! 

HI Tom, and welcome to FSM!

 Regarding your interest in USFUS...

I recommed you send an email to Ed Zimmerman at USSUNITEDSTATES@Yahoo.com.

  Ed has indicated he has some good data on the ship. Check his posting here:

     Quite a few of us here have taken great interest in the Frigates Constitution and United States and have collected a good bit of information. My only real contribution was a detailed belaying pin layout for Constitution.  I do have a close-up photo of he stern of the  Thoma Birch painting displayed in the Philadelphia Seaport Museum. Birch painted the subject at least three times. It is not a perfect match to the Boston Museum painting. They left a few things off like some figures on the quarter-deck, but it has the basic shape correct when compared to the other in Boston. The Round-house/Raised quarter-deck is not apparent in this photo of the painting either. (However, some figures seem to be standing rather high???) 

I suspect WarshipGuy will have some of the best input on the details you are seeking.

That close-up of the the Philadelphia painting:

Crop of the Boston Museum painting:  (Sorry for lower quality)

     Nino

 Edit:

Here are some Links for your reading enjoyment.  Lots of pictures, plans, drawings, and suppositions about the USFUS.

[quote user="warshipguy"]

Gene,

I sent the picture this morning. I also sent a seperate mailing showing contemporary drawings of the ship, the quarter galleries, and the transom.  The roundhouse is clear in these drawings.

Bill

Bill,

Although I have "lurked" on this forum for several years, I am now registered as a member.  I've already built two editions of Revell's 1/96 Constitution as that ship (1812) and the President (1805), and I'm soon going to start on the United States.  As you know, Revell's version of the poop deck/roundhouse is controversial, so I am looking for alternatives.  I've already seen an article from the USS Constitution Museum (link below) with illustrations that show a more traditional-looking stern for an 18th-century two-decker--if it's really the United States.  Unfortunately, those two illustrations don't look very realistic when compared to drawings or paintings of the American frigates by Baugean, Roux, Corné, or Birch.  To me, that loose-footed spanker looks suspect even for 1797!  I can't imagine that it would have been a long-term freature of the ship.

Thomas Birch's fine painting of the United States-Macedonian action (link below) appears to depict the American frigate without a poop deck or roundhouse.  I have also seen a diorama of the battle in which the United States is flush-decked.  Some contributors to an earlier Finescale forum suggested that Decatur may have removed the roundhouse/poop deck to improve the frigate's sailing qualities.  However, Herman Melville's White Jacket indicates that they were back again--if they ever left--when he sailed on the United States in the 1840s.  No one seems to know for sure.  To me, Gene1's version of the stern on his Imani/Monogram model looks much more appropriate for the post-war period than Revell's does for the ship in 1812.  

Anyhow, if you still have "contemporary drawings of the ship, the quarter galleries, and the transom" (as mentioned in your reply to Gene1) that are different from those on on the Constitution Museum's website or Osprey's American Heavy Frigates (which I've ordered), I would be very interested in seeing them.  The only other plan I've seen is Howard Chapelle's depiction of Humphreys' original building draft for the American 44s, which merely has the United States' poop deck rail sketched in.

I plan to build "Old Wagon" in its 1812 configuration.  Unless I find convincing evidence that the poop deck/roundhouse wasn't there in 1812, I'm reluctant to give up such an interesting feature, but I'd like to build a less unwieldy version than the monstrosity created by Revell.  Any help or advice that you or others can provide will be appreciated!

Thanks,

Tom

https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2016/06/14/federal-frigate-early-views-united-states/

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Thomas_Birch_-_Engagement_between_the_%22United_States%22_and_the_%22Macedonian%22.jpg

Thanks Steve, Do you have a flex shaft tool? I bought this one new over 50 years ago & have not have had one problem with it. I did just replace the brushs & gease the flex shaft & replace the dulex spring in the bendable handpiece. That is the first in 50 years.If you don't have one it is the BEST tool you can have in modeling & yes Foredom is still in business big time & super nice to deal with. 

   Be careful as the Chinese are  using Foredoms name & selling who knows what for 1/3 or so of Foredoms prices. Look at a used Foredom on ebay. I can tell you what to look for. A lot of really good deals come up & they sell quick. 

    I took my shaft down to greae it, first in 50 years , & it still looked new.

I never get sick of watching your post's gene , alway's faultless , clean beautiful work .

never heard of foredom , are they still made ?

steve5

 A few more. It has been a real fun build.

Here is my over 50 years Foredom flex shaft tool & handpieces. I just put in new motor brushs & a duplex spring in the one handpiece. If you are getting one, stick with Foredom, new or used. This has been flawless.

Here are the last pictures of the USS United States . I think it is as finished as much as I can. I did a lot of final running rigging. About as my old hands can do.

I am started on the 1/100 Imai Spanish Galleon & it is comming along nice. & I am masking & painting the hull  with all the red, yellow & blue sections. I have decided on decals for the detail on the stripes. I will post some pictures in a few days. I think this will be a beauty.

Bill, I''l adopt you too & you can come with Dale. I do have a nice spare bedroom & bath that you & your wife can have anytime & it's in the mountains too. I had my first kid in Jan. 1953. So I must be older than your father, maybe.

   Dale, I would love to see those 2 kits as I have never seen the big Victory Or the Real De France.. Just let me know when is best for you, Sat or Sunday. Call me. 

Dale and Gene,

My feelings are hurt!    Just kidding!  I have one of Gene's models (the Royal Louis) and I have many, many more to build myself.

Bill

The HMS Victory is the 1/100 the La Reale De France is 1/75....yes having done it so many times is the key. It is almost a habit for you now. Let me know about weekend, no problem to do another time. I did not know that know that monogram use to do wood kits. I would like to see one. 

Big Rugrat, I already have the 1/180 Vicyory built. Which one have you got? I have always built at about this speed. What slows me down is scratch building & I used to do a lot of that. I really don't spend that much time building, mosr every day for at least 2 or 3 hours. Sometimes I will go a lot more.I guess I have been doing it for so long.

In Air Force basic I built a Monogram wood P-51 & won the contest & got a big Bearcat flying model with a motor. Monogram was all wood then & made beaautiful kits.

   I forgot to add about the weekend, we have our ex son in law coming to see us sometime over the weekend. I will let you know.I'm sure it will be fine for you. We still like him & his wife. He was a swat cop & we shot together a lot. He had a silenced H&K P5 with night scope on it Real fun.

OK Dad  How is this coming weekend looking ? I have added 2 more nice models in my going to build collection the Heller HMS Victory and the Heller La Reale De France. I can bring either kit or both for you to look over. I now have more than enough kits in reserve to keep me busy for the next couple of years. I already advised my fiance that when she and her daughter and I start living are lives together that there is going to have to be room for my model displays. So I am going to have your wonderful wife (mom) have a long chat  with her and set her straight  actually she is from the Ukraine and she is so amazed about my models it is not going to be a problem.

I am really looking forward to the next build. I am always amazed at the speed you get things done. In the time I have spent building my Connies you have built 3 models and getting ready to start on the fourth. What do you have, kibbler elves doing work for you at night ? I am sure all of us here would like to know how you do this at the level of quality you achieve. It is truly amazing...... Dale (your adopted, big rugrat)

 Dale as my new son I have some rigging to do for you. We are looking forward to seeing you again. I am starting the Imai Spanish galleon next.

Gene, great work as always neighbor.  Guys I have been in Genes beautiful home and it is like walking into a fantastic scale model museum. His lovely wife is a great lady and he is very lucky in just how tolerant she is of his collection, but I do not think he should push it anymore. So when he runs out of room, part of the display is going into my house. Sorry guys I got adopted by Gene and his wife and I got first dibs    :)   Dale

Luv, Maybe thats' my mistake, I drink my scotch after I rig. I need it then. 

  Jim, I will show your suggestion to my wife. If you saw our Living room, with 150 fighter planes, A big wood Costitution, 2 riverboats, A big wood Baltimore Clipper & a case full of Ferraris. I don;t think I have much of a chance. My main batch of models s downstairs & that is full. I just build them & don't figure out where they are going.

Basement, what basement? There's a small gas powered generator in a vase that normally sits on the table.

All I hear when I sit at the bench is, "When are you going to finish the America so we can put it on the mantle?".

Umm, what mantle?

GM,

     That's an answer to a dream; Dual-purpose Furniture. Did the "boss" let him drill a hole in the floor, run a wire up the table leg from the basement for power and install a video camera in the southwest leg so they could watch the trains run on the big screen TV?

   Jim.

That's what a guy recently told the Boss regarding his trains.

gene1

ej, thanks, but it Aint so nice when you have to learn everything from your 8 year old grandson. He's 16 now & is a whole lot smarter, but both his parents have Phd's. Real good kid. 

 

ej and Gene,

  Having a daughter with a Doctorate really puts me in my place with a dose of Reality.  I now get those "why not .... (do it this way)... it is simplier", responses.  I have an open mind but mostly things are falling out of it these days.

  I thought I had a great idea using High Temperature Super conductors/Electric motors on Subs. So I'm telling my Masters degreed Son-In-law about it and sure enough I am years out of touch; it's alrready been done at the  Navy’s integrated power system site right here in Philadelphia. (It's not secret. Info published in 2009.

   I think this is why I am building vintage models now. I am at least on a more even playing field and equally OOP.

    Gene,

    Have you decided where to display the USF United States?  It is very close to 1/150 scale so maybe next to some Heller 1/150 models??  If necessary, tell your wife I said to re-decorate as needed. You don't need all that furniture in the living room, one bench seat facing the display case should do it.

  Beautiful Ship.  IMAI Molds forever!

         Jim.

Gene,

Nice work, especially on the decks and scratch-built parts.  I have just started my Constitution build, but just love looking at the fabulous work everyone else is doing.  I have done lots of scratch building for my pinball machines.  Sometimes more plastic ends up in the bin rather than on the part I am building, but that is part of the fun.  You can do it as many times as you like until you are happy.  Currently on my 4th build of the skylight for the Constitution, and it finally looks like the photos and drawings I have.

Keep up the good work.

P.S.  My favorite rigging drink is Glenmorangie Nectar D'Or

ej, thanks, but it Aint so nice when you have to learn everything from your 8 year old grandson. He's 16 now & is a whole lot smarter, but both his parents have Phd's. Real good kid. 

3 more from a different album.

I hope that does it. Computers mystfy me.

Steve , Thanks. I will try 2 more & see. Please let me know.

Somehow I have 4 albums of this same set of pictures & only one will print. They all show up as fine on my computer?????

hate to tell you this gene , but the last lot didn't come through .

As soon as I finish this & a few things on my Alabama, I will start on Imai's Spanish Galleon. I have wanted to build that for a long time. I have been trying to figure how to do all the colored work on the hull sides. Red, Yellow & blue. 

  I have also lost the bids on 3 Foredom flex shaft drills. one by a dollar. I have had mine for over 50 years & it still works fine. I have had trouble finding brush's for the motor, but I have some coming from Foredom that are supposed to work. 

    The darn thing is like me, because it's too old to get parts for.

Does anyone have one of the cheaper flex shaft motor drills? Are they any good. I figure my next one doesn't have to last another 50 years.

That got them all.

 Steve I have always listed thru Google Photos, but this tme something went wrong & my grandson got them thru but they weren't listed as an album. I don't know what that means. here are some more. Got to try again on another post.