Colour photo Hornet

Someone recently posted a photo of him on another thread, taken recently at an airshow.

Sounds like there is going to be a racous reunion party upstairs about now...

77 years after the last time that they were all in the same location at once...

And to really close the loop;  LtCol Richard Cole, Jimmy Doolittle's co-pilot in B-25 #1 aircraft died yesterday April 8, 2019.  LtCol Cole was 103  and was the sole surviving member of the Doolittle Raider air crews.  

https://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/20190409/last-doolittle-raider-dies-lt-col-richard-cole-passes-at-103

Internment will be at Arlington National Cemetery, a fitting honor.

I met LtCol Cole several years ago.  I have his autograph on a Squadron B-25 book.  He was a very humble man.   He totally downplayed thoughts of being a hero for his part in the raid.   He spoke rather of his time flying the 'hump' in the CBI theatre.

Also, there was the War Department, and the Navy Department, thank you very much.  The two squabbling Departments were merged into the DoD as part of the 1947 Defense Authorization Act.  Which created the Air Force.  And Neither party wanted AF to be an "equal" partner in arguning over Congressional funding.

It was very contentious at the time.  And the conflict had a long history.  The military Departments would ask Congress for a Dollar, and Congress would budget 70¢.  The Departments would lobby to get more.  And the Army (e.g. War Department) got 74¢ and the Navy only 72¢, it was considered a major "win."  And vice versa as well.

It's germane to remember that international communications were very different 78 years ago than today.  Especially in wartime.

Trans-oceanic communications were largely by telegraph in those days, there was not really enough conductor cross section to support voice communication.  (Most undersea cable is now used for data, satellites have taken up voice.)

So, it was pretty easy to "lock down" the oceanic cable juctions, and monitor telegraph hubs.  International mail was also monitored and subject to review by both intel and counterintel agencies.  Western Union would get, and send, encrypted and encoded messages, but logged the sources and destinations, which was reviewed by a number of US agencies.

Even diplomatic communications were watched, if not necessarily read. 

Now, it was possible to have agents use various cut-outs, and linked drops.  Which got complicated quickly.  Like having to send something via the Paraguyan embassy to Spain, to be routed elsewhere.  Which meant a lot of links, which kills speed.

We occasionally forget that Rural Electrification was not completed until the late 50s, that telephones were not universal until the 60s (and plenty of places on shared--aka "party"--lines until the 70s.  "Named" interchanges (like "Belmont 5", e.g. BE5-nnnn) with a human operator were common until the late 60s.  So, if you needed to call more than 20-25 miles away, you dialed an operator, who then connected you, manually, to a circuit.  And, you were billed by the minute for using those lines (remember, it was American Telephone & Telegraph, they were using those same wires to run telegraph and telex communications when there were no voice messages online).

If you planted a person from 1942 in a modern house, they would be very confused.  There would be no phone on the wall.  No radio set to listen to.  Very likely not a single book to read.
All while sittign right next to a cell phone, the remote for the tv, and a kindle/nook on the coffee table.  And, heaven help our poor time traveler if the house has a "packet/cup" coffee maker.

I have some photo prints taken by my F-in-L of CV-3 at anchor in San Francisco Bay during the 1939 Fair. She is distinctive with the black band up the stacks.

In fact now that I think about it, she's pretty much where CV-8 is moving through in the painting, west of Treasure Island. 

I will grant that she and Enterprise (along with Ranger, the last of the pre-war carriers) were more or less obsolete after the end of the war.  The advent of bigger and heavier aircraft, and the coming of the jet age saw to that.

While I meant the indignity of being nuked as a target, it was better than going to the scrapper's torches or rusting away in some backwater as a member of the reserve fleet, never to feel salt water again.

I wouldn’t call it an indignity. More of a “donating her body to science”. The atomic bomb was a big unknown where it came to naval warfare applications. The USN has far more ships than she truly had use for, even without mass demobilization. A fleet of  brand new Essex class on hand, with some being cancelled, and the new Midway class entering fleet service. Sara and Lexington‘s 1920’s era flight deck elevator designs were inefficient for the latest generation of aircraft. She truly was of no real future use to the fleet in battle. 

But the unknown of the A-Bomb vs. ships at sea... a 20kt bomb vs stationary ships at known distances... survivability in  proximity to the blast... the roots of new fleet doctrine for the  Atomic age.... Sara (and the others) gave one last duty to the fleet and showed that a ship could survive. I would not rate that as an indignity. 

stikpusher

 

 

GMorrison

Yes, maybe not intact, but floating.

 

 

 

 

When not in dry dock getting holes in her hull patched... Poor Sara was a torpedo magnet... and a tough old girl

 

And survive the war only to suffer the indignity of being at Bikini for the atomic tests, and still wouldn't go down.

GMorrison

"Thirty Seconds Over Toyko" is the classic book to start with. It was written by Ted Lawson, who flew the seventh bomber to take off; "Ruptured Duck". It was also a pretty good movie.

Follow with "The First heroes: The Extraordinary Story of the Doolittle Raid". And Doolittle's autobiography "I Could Never Be So Lucky Again", which IMO (see also Boyington, Fosse) illustrates the point that it's hard to be good at more than one thing at a time.

It's a long and complicated story, what the painting shows is the USS Hornet, CV-8 which was a Yorktown Class carrier (along with Yorktown and Enterprise), leaving San Francisco Bay at 8.30 in the morning on April 2, 1942 enroute on the mission.

The ship in the background is an escort, I suppose USS Nashville. Actual photos taken while under way show the sixteen bombers, as well as a group of Wildcats up at the bow.

 

Thanks for taking the time to suggest a reading list. I'll hit a library when I'm back at home base.

That bridge birthday party pic is pretty neat.

GMorrison

Yes, maybe not intact, but floating.

 

When not in dry dock getting holes in her hull patched... Poor Sara was a torpedo magnet... and a tough old girl

Yes, maybe not intact, but floating.

GMorrison

It's also an interesting moment, as up to that point our fleet carrier force was completely intact. In May, Lexington was lost, followed by Yorktown in June, Wasp in September and finally Hornet herself in October.

 

Aside from Saratoga being torpedoed by a submarine in January, being repaired, coming back into the fight in summer, and then being torpedoed by a submarine again in September. 

EdGrune

 

... and to further close the loop,  in announcing the attack on the Japanese mainland,  President Roosevelt was asked where the attack came from.   He said Shangri La,  which was the name of a popular 1933 novel about a mythical kingdom high in the Himalayas.  The reference to the novel was widely understood, and is the source of the aircraft carrier named seemingly out of place among the names of former ships and battles.  USS Shangri La.  

 

Edit:  and one more thing about the launch,   By steaming at flank speed into the wind the wind over the deck was increased to 40-50 knots making the short take off easier.   Film of Doolittle’s #1 launch show the aircraft seeming to jump off the deck and climb rapidly.  

 Dolittle circled the carrier once and struck out alone.   There was no joining up and flying a massed formation.  This was an stream of individual aircraft attacking separate locations

 

EdGrune

 

... and to further close the loop,  in announcing the attack on the Japanese mainland,  President Roosevelt was asked where the attack came from.   He said Shangri La,  which was the name of a popular 1933 novel about a mythical kingdom high in the Himalayas.  The reference to the novel was widely understood, and is the source of the aircraft carrier named seemingly out of place among the names of former ships and battles.  USS Shangri La.  

 

Edit:  and one more thing about the launch,   By steaming at flank speed into the wind the wind over the deck was increased to 40-50 knots making the short take off easier.   Film of Doolittle’s #1 launch show the aircraft seeming to jump off the deck and climb rapidly.  

 Dolittle circled the carrier once and struck out alone.   There was no joining up and flying a massed formation.  This was an stream of individual aircraft attacking separate locations

 

To add a little....the launch officer waving them off would wait to give the signal until the end of the flightdeck would be at it's highest point when they reached it with the pitching to give them every inch of altitude they could get.

It's also an interesting moment, as up to that point our fleet carrier force was completely intact. In May, Lexington was lost, followed by Yorktown in June, Wasp in September and finally Hornet herself in October.

... and to further close the loop,  in announcing the attack on the Japanese mainland,  President Roosevelt was asked where the attack came from.   He said Shangri La,  which was the name of a popular 1933 novel about a mythical kingdom high in the Himalayas.  The reference to the novel was widely understood, and is the source of the aircraft carrier named seemingly out of place among the names of former ships and battles.  USS Shangri La.  

Edit:  and one more thing about the launch,   By steaming at flank speed into the wind the wind over the deck was increased to 40-50 knots making the short take off easier.   Film of Doolittle’s #1 launch show the aircraft seeming to jump off the deck and climb rapidly.  

 Dolittle circled the carrier once and struck out alone.   There was no joining up and flying a massed formation.  This was an stream of individual aircraft attacking separate locations

GMorrison

Frankly it's kind of unusual that we have so many photos taken up to the launch.

 

I think that the powers that be in the War Deartment (today’s DoD) recognized both the historical and propaganda value of the mission and documenting it. (similar photos of the Iran Hostage Eagle Claw Raid onboard USS Nimitz have come to light since that mission) Had more of the B-25s survived, I  suspect that more photos of the raid itself would have survived. Hollywood director John Ford was on board USS Hornet filming the launch. On her journey immediately afterwards to Coral Sea and then back to Pearl Harbor after the raid he filmed many activities on board including what would be scenes of the ill fated Torpedo Squadron 8 that he provided to their families after Midway. After USS Hornet returned to Pearl Harbor Ford was sent to Midway island to film the upcoming battle there. He caught a piece of shrapnel in his shoulder during the Japanese bombing raid on Midway on the morning of June 4.

GM.. I caught your meaning on a second read.  Sorry.  I know you know Pacific history somewhat better than I do.

A friend of mines grandfather was the copilot on TNT.  Griffith P. William's.  His memoirs were a fascinating read.  

It does look like a ferry trip. 

stikpusher

... please read up on this mission. 

I will be doing so.  Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond, Stik.  Absolutely fascinating. 

T e d

Ted4321

There are a couple things I don't quite understand. 

With all those bombers on the deck how was there enough room to get to speed for takeoff? 

If the answer is somehow that they "put" some down below deck (not sure what else the answer could be), why not leave port that way?  

I would imagine such a sight, bombers crammed on a carrier, would be quite noteworthy to anyone observing- say, someone on the Japanese payroll. Seems like a good way to blow your cover. 

I understand there was no internet but I imagine a message could get back to Japan faster than a carrier.  ALERT!  Something looks fishy over here! 

I'm sure the google machine has the answer but figured I'd ask here instead. 

T e d

 

Ted... and Greg... please read up on this mission. It is one of the most daring stories of WWII. It has been portrayed in writing and on screen historically and fictionally. And due to its’ circumstances, fairly well documented. 

Long story short, a group,of Army aviators we’re trained to take off a B-25 in about 400some odd feat from a standing start. B-25s were stripped off excess weight and given extra fuel for range. They were to be shipped to within a certain distance of Japan aboard USS Hornet while USS Enterprise rode shotgun, launched in the late afternoon and fly a night strike on Japan, then land in friendly held areas of China the next morning. Things went wrong. The task force was discovered at dawn on the day of launch by a picket boat (quickly sunk) hundreds of miles short of the launch point. The raid was launched early, and the results are now history.

As far as shipping out of San Francisco in the morning in broad daylight... well the internment of all those of Japanese descent, American citizens or not, put a crimp in that network. And shiploads of aircraft had departed from the ports of both coasts for the war zones since Pearl Harbor, so that was not completely out of place. And pretty much, the Japanese did not expect medium bombers to be launched from carriers. They expected, if anything, standard USN carrier planes of the time with their known radius of action.

Leading up to launch the bombers were farther back. All 16 were on deck the entire trip. Originally one was supposed to fly off and land back on land, but Doolittle decided to keep all 16 for the Raid.

They launched from about even with the island, every plane taxied up to the same point. I don't remember but it was something like 480 feet of takeoff on an 800 some flight deck. 

Stiks SBD always fascinated me. Did it come up on the aft elevator? Probably. All of Hornets air group was below when the Raid was launched. Hornet had a hangar level catapult, but it wouldn't be something to launch an air group with. That was Enterprises role.

Hornet did bring the planes up once the bombers were gone. I've never seen any pictures of that. Frankly it's kind of unusual that we have so many photos taken up to the launch.

There are a couple things I don't quite understand. 

With all those bombers on the deck how was there enough room to get to speed for takeoff? 

If the answer is somehow that they "put" some down below deck (not sure what else the answer could be), why not leave port that way?  

I would imagine such a sight, bombers crammed on a carrier, would be quite noteworthy to anyone observing- say, someone on the Japanese payroll. Seems like a good way to blow your cover. 

I understand there was no internet but I imagine a message could get back to Japan faster than a carrier.  ALERT!  Something looks fishy over here! 

I'm sure the google machine has the answer but figured I'd ask here instead. 

T e d

Poor grammar on my part. Yorktown and Enterprise were sisters in the class, not in the group that sailed from Alameda and as you said, Enterprise joined them while underway.

Except the Yorktown and Enterprise were busy in different areas of the Pacific, and Enterprise made a mid ocean rondevous for the final runin to the launch point.

GMorrison

The ship in the background is an escort, I suppose USS Nashville. Actual photos taken while under way show the sixteen bombers, as well as a group of Wildcats up at the bow.

 

There were also SBDs spotted aft at some points of the journey

The bridge was flat on May 24th 1987, the 50th Birthday Party. I was there and am in the crowd somewhere between the last concrete abutment and the south tower in the foreground.

"Thirty Seconds Over Toyko" is the classic book to start with. It was written by Ted Lawson, who flew the seventh bomber to take off; "Ruptured Duck". It was also a pretty good movie.

Follow with "The First heroes: The Extraordinary Story of the Doolittle Raid". And Doolittle's autobiography "I Could Never Be So Lucky Again", which IMO (see also Boyington, Fosse) illustrates the point that it's hard to be good at more than one thing at a time.

It's a long and complicated story, what the painting shows is the USS Hornet, CV-8 which was a Yorktown Class carrier (along with Yorktown and Enterprise), leaving San Francisco Bay at 8.30 in the morning on April 2, 1942 enroute on the mission.

The ship in the background is an escort, I suppose USS Nashville. Actual photos taken while under way show the sixteen bombers, as well as a group of Wildcats up at the bow.