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Trumpeter 05748 USS Quincy-CA39 1/700 scale General questions paint, etc

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  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Trumpeter 05748 USS Quincy-CA39 1/700 scale General questions paint, etc
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, May 31, 2020 5:04 PM

First of all thanks to those who helped with suggestions on what to do next.  Helpful.  So a couple of questons re: color---  still trying to decide what pattern.  In looking at the painting and marking guide, the colors are listed for Hobby color & Mr color - i dont have either of those brands.  That being said i have worked the conversion and if anyone is familiar - a comment if these seem right for Tamiya acrylic if i follow the above scheme.  Gold X12, XF09 Hull red, XF1 Black, XF 57 Buff, XF18 Medium blue, XF17 Sea blue.  The H55/71(Midnight blue)  I see no equivelant.  

Can anyone tell me what pattern the above is?  Ms 12 modified?  According to the book I have, ShipCraft, New Orleans Class Cruisers by Lester Abbey, thats what she was in 1942.  But the book also says she was Ms 13 splotched when she was sunk.  Ms 13 is basically haze gray and deck blue topsides - does "splotched" mean they patterned it too?

any suggestions on how i might get the port holes to stand out a little after painting?  They are tiny and im afraid the paint might fill them in.  Drill them out?

How can I tell what year the model is suppose to represent?  Im guessing the year she sunk, '42.  I did not see where she was modified like the others in her class and i think she only had 2 over hauls - no major refit - i think.

 

Lastly i found this from https://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm

 

do these formuas refers to navy paint codes?

 

tks William

Tags: CA-39 , USS Quincy

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, May 31, 2020 5:32 PM

Hello William,

Your picures don't show up for me.

Here's one very good resource for USN ship camouflage.

shipcamouflage.com/usn_ca.htm

They say Measure 12 Mod.

Those colors would be 5-O Ocean Gray, 5-H Haze Gray, 5-S Sea Blue and 20-B Deck Blue. Which combination depends on the ship.

Here's a picture from Navsource ust before she was sunk.

Certainly looks like M12, not Haze Gray. I doubt she was painted in the next six days.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/039/04039.htm

Folks struggle all the time to find color equivalents. There's an easier way. I have switched from Colourcoats to Model Master and now to AK Interactive acrylic paint. Their set No.1 for USN WW2 will give you all you need.

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, May 31, 2020 6:35 PM

First off, Trumpeter makes color callouts by way of ouija board, and they are zero guide to appearance.

Second off, as Bill aludes to above, the USN used it's own paint scheme and labeled it very uniquely.  To the point that FS standards just do not really match.  Which was made a bit worse by the colors being defined on a purple-blue system, at a time when violet pigments were in short supply.

What's really hard to tell from the Navsource photos is if the turret tops were in Deck Blue (per the directives) or not.

It looks--to me--like the vertical srufaces above the main deck are in two colors, which might be the Light Gray.  Clearly looks like four colors to my eye.

That color photo is a bit over-exposed and washed out (a known issue ith early color stock).  It may be Kodachrome film stock, which will render things away from blue (and was very dependent on the cameraman wisely using color filters o nthe lens).

So, that hull could be Sea Blue with Ocean Gray splotching, then the super structure Ocean Gray with Haze Gray splotching (three colors and not four).  But, that's just speculation on my part.

Another handy source is here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_ship_camouflage_measures_of_the_United_States_Navy

Your Mileage May Vary.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, May 31, 2020 6:55 PM

CapnMac82

First off, Trumpeter makes color callouts by way of ouija board, and they are zero guide to appearance.

So, that hull could be Sea Blue with Ocean Gray splotching, then the super structure Ocean Gray with Haze Gray splotching (three colors and not four).  But, that's just speculation on my part.

My parakeets get a chuckle ...

I would support  your conclusion.

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:14 PM

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:16 PM

thoughts on what i mentioned about the port holes?

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, May 31, 2020 9:47 PM

Usually they were plated over and painted hull color. Last thing you want to do is show a light.

Bridge windows I spot with a black paint pen.

 

Bill

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, May 31, 2020 10:37 PM

LIFE magazine did a story on the Astoria and the photos are great. Stikpusher knows how to find them.

The Astoria was the first in her class to be laid down, but was launched later than the New Orleans and gave up the class name.

Astoria Oregon is a small city at the mouth of the Columbia river at the Pacific Ocean. She has a famous bar at the mouth. 

A very good friend of ours is the donations officer at their maritime museum. Look it up, it's incredible.

Astoria was a beaver and other pelts port founded by John Jacob Astor following Lewis and Clark.

If you've ever seen the movie "Short Circuit" it was filmed there. Where Interstate 101 crosses the Columbia into Washington state.

USS Astoria was sponsored by Mrs. McKay, a descendant of the original JJA fur trade expedition.

 

Bill

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Monday, June 1, 2020 12:00 AM

Mrchntmarine

First of all thanks to those who helped with suggestions on what to do next.  Helpful.  So a couple of questons re: color---  still trying to decide what pattern.  In looking at the painting and marking guide, the colors are listed for Hobby color & Mr color - i dont have either of those brands.  That being said i have worked the conversion and if anyone is familiar - a comment if these seem right for Tamiya acrylic if i follow the above scheme.  Gold X12, XF09 Hull red, XF1 Black, XF 57 Buff, XF18 Medium blue, XF17 Sea blue.  The H55/71(Midnight blue)  I see no equivelant.  

Can anyone tell me what pattern the above is?  Ms 12 modified?  According to the book I have, ShipCraft, New Orleans Class Cruisers by Lester Abbey, thats what she was in 1942.  But the book also says she was Ms 13 splotched when she was sunk.  Ms 13 is basically haze gray and deck blue topsides - does "splotched" mean they patterned it too?

any suggestions on how i might get the port holes to stand out a little after painting?  They are tiny and im afraid the paint might fill them in.  Drill them out?

How can I tell what year the model is suppose to represent?  Im guessing the year she sunk, '42.  I did not see where she was modified like the others in her class and i think she only had 2 over hauls - no major refit - i think.

 

Lastly i found this from https://www.shipcamouflage.com/measures.htm

 

do these formuas refers to navy paint codes?

 

tks William

 

William,

If you’re doing Measure 12mod and according to the site, your hull could be 5O and 5S with the superstructure 5O and 5H. Your base coat on the hull would be  5O with 5S as the spotches and the superstructure base 5H with 5O as your splotches.

This doesn’t account for the fading that the South Pacific sun did on paint jobs.

I personally use Colourcoats enamels since they are the colors as needed but if you want to use acrylics, then the set Bill recommended would work jusr as well.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Monday, June 1, 2020 10:44 AM

thanks steve.  still not sure which way to go yet.  anyhow, ive mostly used Tamiya and MM so when bill mentioned AK i started looking for that set.  Hard to find any of those colors now - im told bc nothing has been shipping in from europe.  Ive located 1 or 2 of the colors but no sets - either not carried or out of stock.  

 

Bill - what i was thinking on the port hole - i was trying to figure out a way to just make them a little more defined as they seem to be not so deep and i was thinking with the way i spray i might fill 'em inSurprise.  Dont want light showing as mentioned.  Drill 'em out and put a strip of black painted styrne behind them...  Sure iim overthinking it?!?

Wm

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, June 1, 2020 4:12 PM

The portholes can be done in two ways.  If you want them shuttered, just paint them over.  If you want them to look like glass, drill them through and use a micro glazing material (window making material, like Testors or Micro Scale).  Put a drop on a toothpick and transfer it to the hole.  Let it dry for at least 12 hours before doing anything else.  You can drill the holes at any time, but the window material should be applied after all painting is done.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 1:12 AM

Mrchntmarine

thanks steve.  still not sure which way to go yet.  anyhow, ive mostly used Tamiya and MM so when bill mentioned AK i started looking for that set.  Hard to find any of those colors now - im told bc nothing has been shipping in from europe.  Ive located 1 or 2 of the colors but no sets - either not carried or out of stock.  

 

Bill - what i was thinking on the port hole - i was trying to figure out a way to just make them a little more defined as they seem to be not so deep and i was thinking with the way i spray i might fill 'em inSurprise.  Dont want light showing as mentioned.  Drill 'em out and put a strip of black painted styrne behind them...  Sure iim overthinking it?!?

Wm

 

Here is a set with the colors you need on evilBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AK-Interactive-Naval-Series-US-Navy-WWII-Camouflages-Acrylic-Paint-AK5000-NEW-/383544767092?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1

       

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, June 2, 2020 1:35 PM

Be careful about fading paint.  USN vessels seldom spent more than 6 months out of a port facility where they could be painted.  While some of those trips could be hard (north Atlantic trips to Archangel, for instance) there was port call time at either end.

Ships were also full of personnel who could (and generally were) set to painting on a regular basis. 

And, that's hull painting.  Supersturcture painting would go on when ever it offended the XO (which could be either oxidation, or perceptions of the deck apes being lazy).

There were issues of certain violet pigent shortages during WWII, so some of the paint might only meet the paint spec as a "close enough" sort of standard.

Less is more.

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Seattle, WA
Posted by Surface_Line on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:37 AM

Just for goodness' sake, don't follow the picture in the instructions for the flags.  Trumpeter either doesn't understand or intenionally reversed the flags.  The stars and stripes (ensign) goes aft and the jack (blue field with stars) goes at the bow.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
  • From: Boise ID area
Posted by modelcrazy on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 10:53 AM

I just noticed that. Yes, what surface_line said. If underway the Jack is removed and the Stars and Stipes is moved to the mast

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 3:56 PM

Tks guys for the S & Stripes info - never knew that.  Ill add it to the list.  Anhow waiting for some paint and i ordered some PE just to really drive me nuts.  So ill be doing a little more reading and trying to figure out the best way to handle and how to do the pe....

 

Wm

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 5:34 PM

For portholes, you cam use panel line accent washes.  Which can fe feathered down the hull to add some visual interest.

Given the colors of the hull in question, you might want a pale gray wahs and not black.

In reality, the ports will have a solid, deadlite (also spelt "deadlight") cover that dogs from the inside of the ship.  It's basically a disk that prokects from the hull perhaps 1/4-1/2 inch.  It will have a 3/4inch "eyebrow" to redirect water from the top of the port.  Such things would want a microscope at 1/700 scale.  So, paint is your friend here.

The flags issued to the ship are going to either be #3 or #4 sized, and that all the flags, signal, ensigns, jacks, etc. 

USN size link:  https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/f/flag-sizes.html

So the National Ensign flown would be i nthe neighborhood of 14 x 27, or 0.24" x 0.46" at 1/700. 

National Ensign, underway, is flown from either the mainmast or from the highest mast available, often by a specific gaff yard.  Smaller flags might be flown in inclement weather.

Now, not underway, and for Sundays, the "Sunday Ensign" would be flown, this would be a #1 or #2, whatever best fit the length of the flagstaff aft.  This would also be carried as a "Battle" flag, and streamed where ever it could be hoisted.

For PE, working from inboard to outboard, and then from above to below seems to be the trick of it.  Building superstructure components as separeat assemblies assists in this.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, June 3, 2020 6:04 PM

Yup, I sent a little 1/700 deck division in under the flight deck overhang to straighten up some oerlikon mounts. They were never seen again.

 

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:09 PM

GMorrison

Usually they were plated over and painted hull color. Last thing you want to do is show a light.

Bridge windows I spot with a black paint pen.

 

Bill

 

Looking at these side by side, it this what you might be referring to?  They definately is a difference in the number of openings on the sides....

 

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, June 6, 2020 4:34 PM

That's very interesting. Do you have dates on those two? 

The one on the left I would assume is wartime, lower deck ports are dead. I would think the upper ones would be as well when cleared for action.

The one on the right I would assume is pre-war. Lower deck ports clear.

Cap'n Mac could probably explain. 

If you haven't, please take a look at my post this morning of the USS San Francisco Memorial. You can see that bridge on your photos.

 

Bill

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Saturday, June 6, 2020 5:04 PM

Hey Bill - will ck out the post.  The one w/ the camo has a date on it of May 23, 1942.  The other one is from, https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-108000/NH-108213.html

Dont see a date.

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, June 6, 2020 6:36 PM

If memory serves, and it might not, the righthand image is from either fitting out or trials.

It's also in stark light with the hull in pre-war Pale Gray.  As a guess, both the lites (glass) and deadlites (steel) are open for ventilation, as crew spaces were heated but not air conditioned.

The camo photo is with the hull in some shadow, and with all deadlites shut, and painted to match the hull.  So, they'd not really have shadowlines in that lighting.

There are numerous written accounts of "plating over" ports, but most below main deck ports had deadlites as a matter of course (keeping seawater out is generally a good thing).  Veteran accounts are repleate with accounts of sailors opening deadlights for ventilation.

Which is correct?  Well, history blatnatly ignored the wishes of modelers 75 years later to have clear, concise, and precise data to rely upon.

As to photos, the grain in the filmstock matters, as does how the photos were printed.  (And there are a number of "official" photos that are prints of print, rather than exposed from negatives; printing from negatives is also a bit of an art form, rather than a science, too.)

Which returns us full circle to the fact that we are mdeling the ships, and we each get to decide.  After all, the ship legitimately swung off a mooring on the US west coast with all ports open and lights blazing and in her Meas 12(mod).

Your model, your pick. 

This is a tricky aspect of ship modeling, we get so accustomed to turning each build into a research project that we often treat tje models as if they are a dissertation we will have to defend both in writing and orally as well.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Sunday, June 7, 2020 8:43 AM

CapnMac82

 

As to photos, the grain in the filmstock matters, as does how the photos were printed.  (And there are a number of "official" photos that are prints of print, rather than exposed from negatives; printing from negatives is also a bit of an art form, rather than a science, too.)

 

...

 

Additionally, when you do an image search, some of the results may have been copies of printed material- i.e., stuff that was printed on a printing press for a newspaper, magazine, or book.  The half-toning process used in bygone eras allows a choice of the dpi of the halftone screen.  Modern image processing (even with consumer photo editors) does allow some removal of the halftoning artifacts, but if the halftone dpi is too low (like that used by newspapers) the quality is gone forever.

Being an old guy I have been surprised by continual improvements of quality in printing reproduction.  But copies of old printed materials- you get what you get.  Trying to improve quality via your computer photo editor may improve things a bit.  Try the descreen function.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, June 7, 2020 9:59 AM

Some yhears back we repurposed an old GE electric motor plant site into a shopping center in San Jose, CA.

The developer had the bright idea of doing murals in the food court using photos from old employee newspapers.

These things were hardly worth even calling "half tones". We tried and tried using every editing software we could find to "up res" the photos, which had about everything wrong you could think of.

We did get it done but he wasn't ever happy with it.

 

Bill

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:44 PM

So i feel like the blind leading the blind....  All i can hope for is that the paint job turns out better than the glue job!  Cut off the plastic prop gruards and added my 1st pe - besides a little plate or 2 on an old land rover ive done.  Boy oh boy, this stuff flies when it goes airborne.  Was a little dejected when one of them left my tweezers for somewhere on the floor.  Cant believe i found it....

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Wednesday, June 10, 2020 2:02 PM

terminology question - sponson?  the 2 aft deck mounted guns do not have "sponsons" according to some ive read.  Does that refer to part of the circular shielding surrounding those guns that would have protruded off deck had they been located further aft?

Also, in reality the round deck shielding suurounding those guns, (dont know and cant find the proper name) seems to be in real life more "egg" shaped - wondering if i should cut these off - can see them in the picture above - and make some egg shaped ones?  Totally subjective question but thought id ask.  Im not a good plastic surgeon but i need to intern.  Wm

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Wednesday, June 10, 2020 2:44 PM

Surface_Line

Just for goodness' sake, don't follow the picture in the instructions for the flags.  Trumpeter either doesn't understand or intenionally reversed the flags.  The stars and stripes (ensign) goes aft and the jack (blue field with stars) goes at the bow. 

In port, right?  When underway, isn't the national ensign flown from the mainmast?

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:04 PM

Yes, or the tallest mast.

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Wednesday, June 10, 2020 4:42 PM

not sure if this should be in techniques, etc., but looking for a pointer from those with experience....  Trying to figure out if i should assemble the decks, superstructure then add to the main deck before priming/painting or not - prime and paint all the small decking, etc. separately then attach?  Im thinking that if i assemble all the different decks and assemble ill have a hard time getting the primer and paint into the tiny spaces between the different decks, etc.

 

 

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, June 10, 2020 6:05 PM

I usually paint the hull up first, paint the deck separately, install it.

Assemble the superstructure , paint it, attach.

Modeling is an excuse to buy books

 

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