well when I did the paint job on my Arizona I used Tamiya German Gray for the hull and the upper decks and Tamiya white for the upper part of the Tripod masts.

Another note from Randy; in his opinion there isn't enough blue in the WEM 5D.

5D is actually based on the same paint as 5N or 5S (Navy & Sea blue, respectively), just with more blue tint in it. He told me that mixing 5D with 5N in a 1:1 ratio gives a better representation.

EdGrune wrote:

Ron had fumble fingers and was typing off the top of his head (perhaps that was the problem) ;-> The URL should be http://history.navy.mil/ Go to Photographic Section (third link in the right column)

Very close Ed, I have a couple semi-numb fingers due to a pinched nerve and yes, I type off the top of my head for the Navy History site since I can't get in without using a proxy server. It's annoying and that's why I so very rarely refer to it in posts, supposedly it has something to do with dialup ISP's.

Thank you

Ron had fumble fingers and was typing off the top of his head (perhaps that was the problem) ;->

The URL should be http://history.navy.mil/

Go to Photographic Section (third link in the right column)

kevin9456 wrote:

www.histroy.navy.mil

Sir, this address does not work, all I get is,

	The page cannot be displayed
The page you are looking for is currently unavailable. The Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, or you may need to adjust your browser settings.
Please try the following: Click the Refresh button, or try again later. If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly. To check your connection settings, click the Tools menu, and then click Internet Options. On the Connections tab, click Settings. The settings should match those provided by your local area network (LAN) administrator or Internet service provider (ISP). See if your Internet connection settings are being detected. You can set Microsoft Windows to examine your network and automatically discover network connection settings (if your network administrator has enabled this setting). Click the Tools menu, and then click Internet Options. On the Connections tab, click LAN Settings. Select Automatically detect settings, and then click OK. Some sites require 128-bit connection security. Click the Help menu and then click About Internet Explorer to determine what strength security you have installed. If you are trying to reach a secure site, make sure your Security settings can support it. Click the Tools menu, and then click Internet Options. On the Advanced tab, scroll to the Security section and check settings for SSL 2.0, SSL 3.0, TLS 1.0, PCT 1.0. Click the Back button to try another link. Cannot find server or DNS Error Internet Explorer

Thank you

kevin9456 wrote:

Thanks Ron.  Also thanks for the tip on shipcamouflage.com. I keep finding photos of Washington dated May 1941 "two weeks after commisioning" in which she is said to be wearing Ms 1 paint scheme, however briefly. The vessel is clearly lacking equipment, shich as the main director ont the conning tower.   Examples can be found at: usswashington.com I can't remember where I found that color picture now but was Washington.

You're welcome. Randy, the guy who owns the shipcamo site, is a buddy of mine. Washington did wear Ms1 for a short time but entered service in Ms12mod. If you found a color photo of Washington that early it doesn't exist as an official photo, there simply aren't any. Most likely it is a mislabeled North Carolina photo. Go to the photographic section of www.histroy.navy.mil and check under BB-55, I bet you find it there...if you do send me the photo number and I can probably date it accurately.

Thanks Ron.  Also thanks for the tip on shipcamouflage.com.

I keep finding photos of Washington dated May 1941 "two weeks after commisioning" in which she is said to be wearing Ms 1 paint scheme, however briefly. The vessel is clearly lacking equipment, shich as the main director ont the conning tower.   Examples can be found at:

usswashington.com

I can't remember where I found that color picture now but was Washington.

 

kevin9456 wrote:

Thanks - I've always been curious.  How long did the Arizona actually get the chance to wear Measure 1?

A month or two.

I went back and looked at those photos I mentioned - I think it was actually Washington.  There were various photos, including a good color photo, supposedly maiden voyage from forecastle looking aft.  Looks like what I understand the M1 paint scheme to be.  Is that possible?

The only color photos of Washington (either at NARA or NHC) are all after the war ended. In them she is just entering the Canal Zone or in the Panama Canal itself heading for Navy Day in NYC. She wears Ms22 at the time, you can tell her from BB-55 by the funnel tops, NC's are black, WA's are grey.

The supposed maiden voyage color photos are NC during her military trials between 08/20/1941 and 08/31/1941. If you're seeing them on the web, ignore the dates as they are wrong unless they're here:
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/BB/viewtopic.php?t=36 Any photos of guns firing you see in this paint scheme cannot be before 08/26/1941 because the guns had never been fired before that date. I have the entire series of her painting her upperworks into this scheme and in many of them you can see where they stopped for the day, several show deckapes actually painting.  Suffice it to say 5-O went on very much lighter than it cured which is typical of the old oil based enamels, even today some enamels do this but not to the degree they did back in 1941. It takes weeks for the paint to fully cure and over the first week it darkens significantly.

I have scans of all the original prints and slides that exist at NARA and NHC for BB-55. I have also seen a fair number of the original negatives to determine what type of film they were shot with.  The following only applies to BB-55's photos and negatives. The original color film was Kodachrome, the original black and white films used that we can identify were a Kodak panchromatic, an AGFA safety type and AGFA orthocromatic. Sadly better than 85% of the negatives for B&W are copy negatives on a Kodak film type that did not exist until 1948 (these show higher contrast than the originals that do survive from the same series). Of the original B&W photos that we can ID the original film type there are two levels of contrast between the hull and upperworks, even for photos taken on the same day at approximately the same time. If you see photos of a dark hull and upperworks that appear slightly lighter, those were shot on the AGFA safety or orthocromatic films, if you see photos where the hull is very dark and the upperworks much lighter they were shot on Kodak panchromatic film and standard Navy procedure was to use a yellow, amber, orange or red filter....this increased the contrast between 5-O and 5-S, when printed on the early WWII papers the contrast is even more exagerated, later reprints from the same negatives still have high contrast but not as bad as the early prints. I mention the early prints because they are the most commonly published, lazy research is the culprit.....you find photos from every year of the war in the first 20 boxes of the 125 boxes photos are in and most people are satisfied they have all they need....this leads to a lot of myths since those same photos tend to be the ones censored with ink and airbrush on the print. Later reprints are not normally censored.

OK, enough rambling as I'm not fully caffienated yet and the cuppa needs a refill......

kevin9456 wrote:

Also very good photos of the USS Texas Museum at Navsource website.  She is painted very dark.  D5 Dark Gray maybe?

Nope -- The Texas is painted in 5-N Navy Blue.   You are correct that the Texas appears to be black as she sticks above the trees from the deck of the ferry taking you across Buffalo Bayou.  Once you get to SanJacinto State Park, and you pull into the parking lot - she definately appears blue.

Thanks - I've always been curious.  How long did the Arizona actually get the chance to wear Measure 1?

I went back and looked at those photos I mentioned - I think it was actually Washington.  There were various photos, including a good color photo, supposedly maiden voyage from forecastle looking aft.  Looks like what I understand the M1 paint scheme to be.  Is that possible?

Also very good photos of the USS Texas Museum at Navsource website.  She is painted very dark.  D5 Dark Gray maybe?

kevin9456 wrote:

I've looked at some B&W photos of ships sporting measure 1, including the new North Carolina.  They are dark, but don't seem to be THAT dark.  That could have to do with the lighting in the photos, reflectivity of the paint, etc.  I also wonder about the effects of "scale".  I wonder if a lighter shade than actual 5D is more representative, or at least visually convincing on a 1/350 scale model of a warship of the period.

North Carolina never wore 5-D, the photos you're thinking of all date from between 08/01/1941 and early November 1941. She wore straight Ms12 with a 5-S hull, 5-O upperworks, 5-L tops (should have been 5-H per specs but was 5-L instead), black anchor chains, mix of black and #5 standard Navy grey scuff plates and some deck fittings left in #5. She was never in Ms1 nor Ms5 with a false bow wave, the photos claimed to be a false bow wave are really showing the 5-S chipping off the #5 standard Navy grey which had a gloss factor of 44 and 5-S did not stick to it well (NOTE- her hull paint had been on at most 18 days and more likely less than a week before she began her high speed trials and had not fully cured yet). The photos of her in the Ms12 scheme you refer to as Ms1 on any website and in any book yet published, other than www.shipcamouflage.com in the Color Controversy forum, are all incorrectly dated, this includes Navsoure and www.history.navy.mil. If I feel like digging up my notes or can even find them this week I can give the time of most of them to the minute based on her decklogs and work records.

If it exists in photo form at NARA or NHC for her entire service life I have it. I have read every piece of paper on her at NARA as regards her work records, all her damage reports and her deck log from commissioning thru the end of 1942.

5-D is dark, very dark. Photos from the Pearl Harbor attack show it as almost black.

I obtained 5D dark gray from Ensign, which is darn near black. I tried applying it to a couple of places on the model to check the effect and it did not change my opinion. 

I did take a look at German Panzer gray, which is somewhat lighter than 5D.  I've looked at some B&W photos of ships sporting measure 1, including the new North Carolina.  They are dark, but don't seem to be THAT dark.  That could have to do with the lighting in the photos, reflectivity of the paint, etc.  I also wonder about the effects of "scale".  I wonder if a lighter shade than actual 5D is more representative, or at least visually convincing on a 1/350 scale model of a warship of the period.

Kevin,

It takes some getting used to. Try using a shorter blade, and if you have a speed controller, you can plug the iron into that to control the heat. The good thing about small mistakes like that is you can fill and sand and cover them up.

Jeff

I gave your method a try and it does work.  Exacto chuck screws in there quite nicely.  However you are also right about the length issue.  I managed to kind of screw up the #3 barbette when I accidently contacted it with the hot iron.  Not a method for the clumsy, apparently.

Kevin

*taps Jeff on the forehead* You know what they say about impending senility, don't you? Good! Because I forgot ...

I've had good luck removing unwanted plastic and resin details using Micromark's mini-chisel, the 2mm wide version, No. 82709. Just the thing for pesky details on 1/700 resin ship kits, and hefty enough that it gives me better control than whacking away with a No. 11 or 12 blade.

Man o' man,

Where did this post come from?? I don't even remember writing it!!

I use a soldering iron with a #11 fitted to it as my cutting tool. I removed the circular tip of the iron and ran a tap into the opening, then used the metal chuck from a hobby knife. It's a bit awkward because of the length, but makes really clean cuts.

Jeff

kevin9456 wrote:

Speaking of horizontal (and vertical) surfaces (not exactly a paint question, but everyone here is working on an Arizona model of one type or another):  Removing the molded-in ladders from the quarterdeck to the main deck level to replace them with PE detailed ladders.  What's the best approach?  I worked on them with an exacto knife, probably clean up with a dremel or fine file and then patch.  Suggestions welcome

With mine, I heated an Exacto knife over a candle and cut them out, filled the hole with some styrene and thick CA, and sanded smooth with a small file.
Scott

Speaking of horizontal (and vertical) surfaces (not exactly a paint question, but everyone here is working on an Arizona model of one type or another):  Removing the molded-in ladders from the quarterdeck to the main deck level to replace them with PE detailed ladders.  What's the best approach?  I worked on them with an exacto knife, probably clean up with a dremel or fine file and then patch.  Suggestions welcome

Hi,

I'm working on that Trumpeter 1/350 model of Arizona.  I purchased 5D USN Dark Grey from White Ensign.  Man, this stuff is darker than I ever imagined.  All the Dec. 7 1941 period photos of Arizona, Pennsylvania, Nevada, etc. (all in black and white of course) suggest quite a dark color, which is something that I've always wondered about before I ever heard of M1 paint scheme.  I thought that it might be poor photos or something.  Anyway, I wonder if there is some "scale" effect of using the actual 5D color to paint the model and whether it should actually be slightly lighter in shade. Certainly, the photos that gorgeous paper model of Arizona on the Digital Navy website is not as dark as the 5D that I have.

I dunno about the teak...those ships got alot of attention, because they spent alot of time in port in those months just before the war...decks were holystoned on a regular basis, and with the bright sun of Hawaii, it bleaches damn near everything. You're right about the paint though, no heavy weathering...some subtle drybrushing to bring out the edges, and that's about it.

Jeff

Oh, yeah- Jeff's absolutely right about the 5-L light gray at the top. Anything above those funnel tops are 5-L. And also, I wouldn't go too heavy on the dark gray paint weathering. Remember, it just received that paint. Those teak decks ,from what I understand, were pretty weathered.

Arizona was wearing Measure 1 camo...this means...5-D Dark Gray on the hull, up to the tops of the funnels. Above that, 5-L Light Gray. If you're using Modelmaster Enamels, then you can get away with using German Panzer Gray and USN Light Gull Gray. The decks are bare teak, but any horizontal surface that's not wood, like turret tops, will be 5-D as well.

Jeff

Bill- I've just completed the Dragon 1:700 scale version myself. (great kit!) I do believe that the 'Zona was painted 5-D at the time of her demise. (dark gray) According to those who were there, they have stated that the ship was painted "black".
Which, one would assume, was actually 5-D, USN Dark Gray, as the USN didn't use a "black" (close enough to "black") I won't question someone that was there.....
Also, the BB-39 was slated to have deck blue stain applied, but this had not happened by Dec. 7th, '41. That's my take on the issue. - Happy New Year-