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S.S. President Cleveland finished pics

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  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
S.S. President Cleveland finished pics
Posted by onyxman on Saturday, February 10, 2007 1:32 PM

The President Cleveland was started in 1944 as the P2-SE2-R3 Navy transport Admiral D W Taylor, but was turned over to American President Lines and finished as the Cleveland . The sister ship was the President Wilson. They traded in the west coast, Honolulu and Far East routes all through the 50s and 60s. She was scrapped in 1974.

 This is the old Life-Like kit, previously Pyro, subsequently Lindburg. The scale is 1/411.

It took a lot of work to get this half way presentable:

Carved off the molded-on accomodation ladders from the hull. (What were they thinking?)

Drilled out all the portholes.

Created all new decals as the kit ones were not only old and deteriorated, but were totally out of scale.

Scratch-built lifeboat davits, cargo gear blocks, anchor windlass and added chain.

PE railing is 5 bar from Tom's 1/400 Titanic set. I laid styrene strip along the top to model the wooden cap rails. Some photos show rails with canvas covers, so those were left with the molded on rails.

There are a lot of inaccuracies in the kit, especially around the after superstructure. Also, the stem and stern are too thick.

Fred

 

  • Member since
    July 2005
  • From: Dayton, Ohio
Posted by warhorse3 on Saturday, February 10, 2007 3:43 PM
Nicely done. Thanks for the pics.Thumbs Up [tup]
Regards, Bill
  • Member since
    December 2002
Posted by Dreadnought52 on Saturday, February 10, 2007 7:25 PM
Very nicely done. It is a pleasure to see this kit done the right way.

WS
  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Saturday, February 10, 2007 11:03 PM

well as you say the kit itself is a bit of a dog

BUT  looks like you did a good thing takind that dog to obediance schoolThumbs Up [tup]

  • Member since
    September 2006
Posted by hasse n on Sunday, February 11, 2007 7:20 AM

Great Fred!

I know when you started with The President Cleveland as your new project Fred, that she´s going to turn at this beautiful ,i know you have the skill. My self i have to stopped my Benledi and J.L.Hanna project for a while, Have to do a special model to a company here in Sweden first. Can´t show what i am doing before delivery.

It´s great that you rebuild this ode ship, and so well. There are not many out there using this old plastic ship models that are so out of date, from what the plastic model company´s  produced now. And of this kind of type, and are able to rebuild them to this great modern standard. What´s your next?

Hasse. 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, February 11, 2007 8:48 AM

Great work, I guess that you can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Very very inspiring indeed.

 

Dick Wood

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Sunday, February 11, 2007 10:31 AM

Thanks all. Yes, this is a dog of a kit, but I think we should start building some of these old ones before they start deteriorating. The plastic on this one seemed to be getting pretty brittle.

Hasse, I think my next one will be the Airfix 1/600 Mauretania. That is the ship my grandmother arrived in America in. It will be a treat to do a kit more or less out of the box for a change. (who am I kidding, there will end up being at least some PE railings)

Then, maybe next summer, the Liberty ship Frank O. Peterson. It was one of the Libertys built special as an aircraft transport. The hatches and cargo gear were different from a standard Liberty. I have the plans from the Smithsonian collection of Maritime Commission plans. Also, I have my father's memory. He was Radio Officer on the Peterson, taking P-38s to Biak, in 1944. I have a Trumpeter Liberty kit and Tom's 1/350 aircraft details are on the way.

Fred

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: NYC
Posted by kp80 on Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:11 PM

Fred,

Nice work (as usual)!  I remember that kit, I built it as the Pyro kit back in the mid-70's, you made it look great!

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Monday, February 12, 2007 6:23 PM

I had emailed some pics of this build to friends and I just received this back from an old shipmate of mine. I hope he doesn't mind me sharing it here. It's cool what old sea stories our little hobby can recall to mind:

"Fred  -  Your latest model is a beauty.  All the fine detail looks very professional.  I have a certain fondness for that ship as I made the last 2 trips to the Far East before she was turned over to the Chinese.  I shipped AB in Honolulu then 1st call Yokohama, the Deck Yeoman broke his leg & I got that job because I could "type".  I did the Deck Dept paperwork for the Mate & as a side deal, took care of passenger's pets on "cargo rate" OT.  Used to exercise the dogs on the stack deck. For tying up & letting go I was on the bridge operating the EOT plus bellbook......Very clean!!!!      The gambling (& drinking) on that ship was unbelievable.  An MMP friend of mine used to meet the ship in Honolulu & called our living quarters the "Black Hole of Calcutta".  Had a lot of SUP allstars on there including ( names deleted to protect the guilty- Fred).  I remember sailing from Manila at 2200.  We were berthed at the end of a long dock.  Singled up & ready to go, when a taxi comes racing down the dock & stops in front of the open sideport.  The driver drags some guy dressed in tropical whites out of the back seat.  Then he & a linehandler toss the guy into the sideport like a sack of potatoes................Classic. it was the third mate on the 12x4.  This of course was observed  by the passengers who were on deck three deep to throw confetti.                       All the best, Gary"

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:51 AM

You invested time well spent on producing a very unique model.

Nice job.

Scott

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Morris, Illinois
Posted by dwblackwell on Friday, February 16, 2007 10:26 PM
What a nice model! I have very fond memories of crossing the Pacific on her in 1966. It was a great time for a 9-year old, as they spent a lot of effort keeping us kids out of Mom and Dad's hair on that ship. The best part was a locker (closet to you landlubbers) full to the top with plastic models that we could build just for the asking- what a way to pass 20 days at sea. If only I would have "liberated" more of those kits.....It was really an adventure. Boarded at Manila and enjoyed it all the way to San Francisco. Hong Kong, Yokohama, and Honolulu in between. Saw Pearl Harbor, the lights and bustle of Tokyo, etc, etc. Pity to hear that she went to scrap in '74. Thanks for stirring the memories. I appreciate your hard work. And yes, they did give me a model just like the one you built to take with me. I actually held on to it for about three years after that and then it met a BB gun end. Too bad...

D. Blackwell MMC(SS), USN, Retired

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Friday, February 16, 2007 10:53 PM

dw, 

Thanks for the story. These kits seem to show up on eBay fairly regularly in the $30 to $60 range. It's never too late to build another.  I was tempted to do mine as a waterline model in a diorama, anchored in Hong Kong with sampans and junks all around. Then I could have avoided the chore of removing those darn molded-in accomodation ladders from the hull.

Fred

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Morris, Illinois
Posted by dwblackwell on Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:19 PM
That would have been a very cool diorama- I distinctly remember Hong Kong harbor as being packed with other shipping as the time. Another memory was of some kids diving off of a small boat for coins thrown by passsengers from the ship- gave me a real appreciation for the plight of those less fortunate. Perhaps I will go check out e-Bay and other venues to see if I can pick one of those ships up- I did talk to a gentleman representing the reborn Hawk model company last year at the Hobby Expo in Chicago who said they had the molds for it and would be bringing it out "soon". We'll see about that, as well. Thanks for the trip down memory lane- I am still not sure if that voyage influenced me to join the Navy later in life. I have enough sea time now to last me for a while. It was a kick being the senior Golden Dragon (from 1966) on one of my submarines when we crossed the equator on one of my deployments. Thanks again.

D. Blackwell MMC(SS), USN, Retired

  • Member since
    March 2008
Posted by Toburen on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:48 PM

Hopefully someone can help me. My father recently purchased an estate near Elbe, Wa. The previous owner passed away and left everything at the home. When my father went to inspect the property he found a large scale model of the ss President Cleveland in the living room and dining Rm. The model is 24 ft long with a 4 ft beam. He tells me it is an absolutly amazing piece of art. We know nothing about it and my father is also looking for some type of drawing or prints.A small portion of the stern still needs to be completed. Someone spent a lot of time and energy building this model and it seems ashame to just throw it out.

Thank you

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by Dirkpitt289 on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 9:05 PM
Can you get pictures of it? that would be great

Dirk

On The Bench:

B-17F "Old 666" [1/72]

JU-52/53 Minesweeper [1/72]

Twin Me 262's [1/72] Nightfighter and Big Cannon

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 11:39 PM
Wow! That's bizarre. How would you get it out of the house, if you wanted to?
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:33 AM

It's a long shot, but you could try the Museum of History and Industry in Seattle. The size of this thing is problematic.

Certainly it's worth putting on ebay or such before throwing it out. Please see if you can get us some photos.

Fred

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, March 27, 2008 9:39 AM

It sounds like this may be one of the famous "builders' models," built on commission from either the shipyard or the shipping line at the time the ship was built.  If so, it's not only a work of art but a tremendously valuable artifact.  For heaven's sake don't let it get destroyed if you can possibly help it.

This is the sort of thing that responsible maritime museums are dying to get for their collections.  If no local museum will take it, try such places as the San Francisco and San Diego Maritime Museums.  Even the ones on the east coast (South Street Seaport in New York, the Peabody-Essex Museum in Massachusetts, Mystic Seaport in Connecticut, or the Smithsonian in Washington) ought to be interested in a genuine builder's model of an American ocean liner - though the expense of transportation would present a formidable problem.  But I do hope the model won't get junked unless and until all options for saving it are exhausted.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:22 AM
The LOA of the President Cleveland was 623 ft. If this model is 24 ft long, that works out to be a scale of 1/26th? Always check my mathSmile [:)]  Does that sound like a reasonable scale for one of these builder's models?
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, March 27, 2008 2:09 PM

If those are the dimensions of the model itself, it is indeed on an enormous scale for a builder's model.  The typical scale for those things seems to have been 1/48.  There are, however, no hard and fast rules about such things.  It's entirely possible that the model was built to fit in a particular place in somebody's office or showroom.

There's a yellow light flashing in my head about those dimensions, though.  If the model is 24 feet long and 4 feet wide, either the real ship was extremely fat for her length or the model's proportions are distorted.

A web source that I checked (  http://www.apl.com/history/timeline/stat7.htm#pw2 ) gives her an overall length of 609' 5 3/4" overall, and a beam of 75'6".  Those dimensions don't check with the stated dimensions of the model. 

Maybe it isn't a scale model - or is it possible that the dimensions include a display case?  We really need some pictures in order to comment intelligently on this artifact.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:16 PM

Ooops! You are correct. I looked at the same website but under the wrong ship (the President Roosevelt).

The other yellow light might be that the stern is unfinished. Sounds like it could be a home project.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:50 PM

Maybe.  (And if so, that doesn't necessarily negate - or even reduce - the value of the model.  If, for instance, it was built by a sailor who served on board the ship, it's a hugely valuable artifact.)

It's also conceivable that it is a builder's model, and was built before the name was assigned to the ship.  That would explain why there's no name on the stern.

At the museum where I used to work we had a huge model of the sister ships President Coolidge and President Hoover.  (That particular model was built in the museum's model shop, which functioned back in the thirties and forties, and was funded by Newport News Shipbuilding and Dry Dock - which built the two ships.  So it was, in a sense, a builder's model.)  It had "President Hoover" painted on one side of the bow and "President Coolidge" on the other.  It was known effectionately as The Hoolidge.  I can't for the life of me remember what, if anything, was painted on the stern.  It may well have been blank.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Morris, Illinois
Posted by dwblackwell on Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:51 PM
Speaking as someone who had the pleasure of having the SS President Cleveland carry my young 9 year old pink rear end across the Pacific in 1966, I am fully in favor of preserving this model to show what used to be a viable (and civilized) transportation method back in the day. The Mariner's Museum in Newport News has a world-class collection of builder's models of some really significant ships. Here's another candidate (if it is done to the same standards as the models already in residence there). The question is funding to transport the beast to a museum that will appreciate and preserve it. We need to step in and save it. Let me know what I can do to help preserve it, since I failed to preserve the real thing. David Blackwell, MMC(SS), USN, Retired

D. Blackwell MMC(SS), USN, Retired

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Friday, March 28, 2008 2:51 AM

I used to work at the Mariners' Museum, and those grand old builders' models were among my favorite responsibilities.  I was lucky enough to do some restoration work on most of them. 

If this model is indeed the builder's model of the President Wilson/President Cleveland, nobody would be happier than I to see the MM acquire it.  In view of the way the museum has been operating in the (considerable) time since I left, I'm not optimistic.  But I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.  New management has taken over the place fairly recently; maybe its policy is more enlightened than that of its recent predecessors.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Morris, Illinois
Posted by dwblackwell on Saturday, March 29, 2008 9:55 PM

Wow- Your efforts at restoration on those models certainly enhanced the collection. I spent quite a bit of my time at the museum looking at those beautiful builder's models and drooling like a Saint Bernard. My heartfelt congratulations on a superb job. Sorry to hear the management degraded. I am sure their ambitous Monitor exhibit is really burning through the available resources, but it is an important artifact. I was very impressed overall with the museum, no matter the circumstances. It seems like it doesn't get the recognition it should for having the collection it does. I have tried to give it word-of-mouth promotion every chance I get. Enlightened management is all we can hope for unless we win the lottery and buy it outright.

Getting back to the matter at hand- are there any images of this S.S. President Cleveland model we can look at? I am sure the images would help galvanize support for an acquisition scheme. It would be a treat to see it in a museum.

D. Blackwell MMC(SS), USN, Retired

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:50 PM

dwblackwell - 

Your remarks are deeply appreciated, but you give me too much credit.  Some of those old steamship models did require a fair amount of attention (a couple of them had to have virtually all of their rigging replaced), but most of them were actually in pretty good shape when I got there (in 1980).  And some of them had problems that, in practical terms, couldn't be solved - sometimes because of the acts of previous generations of museum staff. 

One of the biggest projects was the big model of the S.S. America.  That model (which is about 18 feet long, if I remember right, and was built in the late thirties) was in reasonably good shape structurally, but for some reason or other most of the paint on it was falling off.  Rejuvenating the paintwork was beyond the capacity of the facilities we had in the museum, or the time we could devote to it, so we farmed the job out to a couple of excellent local modelers, Marvin Bryant and Paris Aiken (both of whom, sadly, are now deceased).  Beyond making the recommendation that the Museum hire Paris and Marvin to do the work, I had nothing to do with that project.

The "President Hoolidge" model, as I recall, just needed some light cleaning and the replacement of a couple of frayed rigging lines - and, if I remember correctly, a loose davit fall hooked back onto a lifeboat.  The biggest part of that project consisted of getting the model out of its case and back into it.  That was the most ridiculously-designed exhibit case I've ever seen.  It had a plate glass vitrine (i.e., transparent box) with a stainless steel frame, which was bolted to the table on which the model sat.  To open the case the vitrine, which weighed several hundred pounds, had to be lifted straight up.  Fortunately the head janitor remembered that a couple of heavy steel lifting straps had been made for the purpose, and could be bolted to the sides of the frame.  Opening that case and closing it again took three guys the better part of a day.  Two of them stood on tall step ladders working rented chain hoists hooked between the ceiling joists and the lifting straps, lifting the vitrine an inch at a time while I stood in the middle making sure they were both lifting at the same speed.  We had it about halfway up when the director of the museum walked through on his way back from lunch.  When he saw that big glass box hanging precariously over that model he turned three shades of white, turned his back, and disappeared into his office.  I didn't blame him.

The saddest case was a superb Japanese freighter.  Most of those old builders' models have metal fittings plated with nickel.  (That was partially a matter of style, and partially one of practicality.  Those fittings typically were made up of finely-machined parts, soldered together.  Prior to the middle of the twentieth century - or later - commonly available paints couldn't be applied to such parts without obscuring the details, so the modelers resorted to plating in order to make the whole fitting a uniform color - even if it wasn't the same color as the real thing.)  The fittings of that Japanese model were plated with gold.  They were, that is, until a curator at the museum, scoffing something to the effect that "you don't see ships sailing around with gold ventilators and railing stanchions," spray painted them all black.  We couldn't do much for that one; stripping the paint off without damaging the plating looked like a hopeless task.  (Maybe a better methodology than what we had at our disposal is available now; I hope so.)  In defense of our predecessors, it deserves to be noted that the modern conservation ethic hadn't really been formulated at that time - or at least hadn't made its way into maritime museums.  But by modern standards such treatment of such a valuable artifact borders on obscenity.  (Paintings conservators in art museums and conservation labs spend most of their time undoing the work of previous generations of conservators.  The problem isn't quite as severe in three-dimensional artifacts, but it does come up all too frequently.)

The project that made me the happiest was a large-scale model of a nineteenth-century lightship.  The model was built for the U.S. Centennial Exhibition at Philadelphia in 1876.  By modern standards it was a rather crude model; the fittings for adjusting the "lights" were made from ladies' earrings, and the "glass" in the lamp housings was made out of mica.  We restored this one according to modern conservation principles - i.e., we didn't try to "improve" on the origina, but rather did our best to return it to its original, as-built configuration. 

Tracking down the sheets of mica to replace the damaged panes in the lamp housings was an interesting little project in itself.  I had no idea where to start, but I vaguely remembered my father telling me that the worst whupping he ever got from my grandfather came when Dad broke a little piece of mica in the viewing port in the family's wood stove.  So I started calling wood stove dealers.  The first three had no idea what I was talking about.  The fourth one said, "Well, I guess I could sell you some mica all right, but if you want to buy mica why don't you call the mica factory, you turkey?"  I wonder if I was the only person in town who didn't know there was a mica factory in Newport News - and that the owner of the factory lived nextdoor to the director of the Mariners' Museum.  (The guided tour of the mica factory I got that afternoon was pretty interesting - and the sales rep gave me several dozen sheets - free of charge.)

The three years I spent at that museum were among the most interesting of my life, and I'm extremely glad to have had the experience.  The Mariners' Museum and I parted company under less-than-pleasant circumstances, which I don't like to remember these days.  I'd undoubtedly be healthier if I forgot about them, and discussing them here would accomplish absolutely nothing.  I haven't set foot inside the museum for well over ten years; my wife says she can see my blood pressure going up whenever we get within a mile of the place.  For me to comment on its current management and/or exhibitions, about which I know next to nothing, would be unfair on my part.

I also wouldn't feel right about commenting any further about the President Cleveland model we've been discussing, in the absence of any photos or more detailed information about it.  But it sure does sound like an interesting model - and quite possibly an important one.

Sorry to wander so far from the topic of the thread - but I've got a big soft spot in my heart for grand old merchant steamship models.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

bsk
  • Member since
    April 2008
Posted by bsk on Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:10 AM

My dad emigrated to the U.S. aboard the President Wilson around 1953.  He passed away last summer.  I would like to build a model of the President Wilson.  I found this model:  http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=3675&searchtext=cleveland  I think it's the same one that you used by Life-Like.  Are there any other/better/wooden versions?

Thanks,

BK

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Seattle, Colorado
Posted by onyxman on Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:22 AM

bsk, that is the kit that I built and is shown at the beginning of this thread. It was originally a Pyro product, then Life-like, then Lindburg. If you want one now, I think you could do better than $120 by searching eBay. They seem to go for roughly half that price. I paid $40 for mine. However, there is a rumor that the kit will be re-issued soon, so you might want to wait a while.

To my knowledge, there is no other kit in wood or any other scale.

Fred

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 12, 2008 3:24 PM

The old Pyro kit is on the list of those being re-released by the newly rejuvenated Lindberg:  http://www.lindberg-models.com/water_model77224.html

Personally, I haven't bumped into any of the "new" Lindberg kits in the stores - but eastern North Carolina is hardly the best place to look.  I have no idea whether this particular kit has actually been put on the market yet - or, if not, when it will be.  Or, for that matter, how much it will cost.  But I think it's safe to assume it won't cost $120.00.

I'm pretty confident in asserting that there's no other plastic President Lines kit.  (The grand total number of plastic ocean liner kits ever released can just about be counted on your fingers and toes.)  Nor have I ever heard of a wood or resin version.  (Ocean liner kits aren't exactly common in those media either.)  There is, however, another world out there of companies that manufacture tiny 1/1200 and 1/1250 cast metal ship models - warships, freighters, liners, cruise ships, and just about everything else.  I suspect at least one of those manufacturers may well have one of these ships in its line.  I don't know much about that phase of the hobby, but if you're interested here's a place to start looking:  http://www.steelnavy.com/1250home.htm

Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Friday, July 17, 2009 3:16 PM
 HEY ONYXMAN -Thats a fine looking rendition of that ship .I am going to go a little further and then I,ll take one and convert it to MATSON NAVIGATION,S "LURLINE !!!
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