Acrylics VS. Enamels *Your opinions please*

Because the solvents and propellants are generally flammable, and often the binder is also flammable, especially in its fluid form. The binder is also sticky. Under pressure, some of these materials can be considered explosive, or nearly so. Most of the methods of "decanting" an aerosol can involve concentrating a portion of the liquid in a small container by venting it through a plastic tube. This cold, concentrated liquid contains the propellant, usually a flammable hydrocarbon that is a gas under atmospheric pressure,  but has been condensed into a liquid before being put into the can. If it boils off slowly and there is no source of ignition at hand, well and good. If it boils off rapidly, on the other hand, there are plenty of sources of ignition—I doubt if the typical work area has flash-resistant electrical connections. There is also a slight chance of static discharge, especially in the winter months.

If it ignites while being decanted, you get a fireball, possibly with shrapnel. Two foot diameter for one of the pint-sized cans, 4 to 6 for the larger ones. Quite spectacular. No saving throw.

While the chances of ignition are small, burns are very painful and take a long time to heal. Insurance companies and fire marshals take a dim view of things like this, too.

Accidents are called accidents because they are unexpected and rare. How rare is up to you.

Assuming this operation is done in a proper spray booth, the release of potentially toxic materials into your breathing air is minimal.

As a final note, aerosol paints are formulated and designed to be sprayed from the valve and spray head on the can, not from an airbrush. Why not just use the stuff as it was designed? Less messy and much safer. The only good reason I've ever seen to decant an aerosol paint (other than in a lab for research purposes) was if  you need just a small amount for touch up work. In that case, less than a second spray into the cap is safer and provides all the touch up paint you could possibly need.

In short, sure you can do it and get away with it. But why bother? If you want to take unnecessary risks, buy a lottery ticket. Then if something unexpected and rare happens, it will make you happy.

Triarius

And not only is decanting aerosol paints messy, it's dangerous. Stupidly dangerous in my opinion…but what do I know? I only worked in the R&D lab of an aerosol paint company…

Ross,

Why is it dangerous to decant aerosol paints?  I am not being sarcastic, and I greatly value your experience and opinions. 

Thanks!

Chris

I had meant to add a link to the instructions for decanting rattle cans to my earlier post:

http://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/feature.php?article-id=301

It has a section on out-gassing of the propellant and has this warning which it wants you to read TWICE:

The propellant boils at room temperature which creates pressure to spray. It also makes handling the paint outside a pressure can difficult, messy, and even dangerous. Proper out-gassing will reduce the pitfalls of decanted paints to those of normal store-bought bottled paint

Profoxcg

I have some brand new tamiya acrylics in their rattle cans. is there a way to use them on my AB?

Be aware that Tamiya's spray cans are "synthetic lacquers", not acrylics.

Bgrigg

I think Ross misunderstood that you meant painting ONTO aluminum, I would certainly prime before painting metals with any paint.

Decanting Tamiya sprays is relatively easy, but can be quite messy. The propellant can cause the decanted paint to do some pretty crazy things, so don't be doing this in the kitchen, bathroom or living room. It can be very messy. I would use a cardboard box large enough to contain an out of control rattle can. It can be very messy. It does requires hardware store lacquer thinner for cleanup, but doesn't really need to be thinned.

Did I mention that it can be really messy?

 

Yes, I misunderstood. I've had success applying both Polly Scale and Tamiya to clean, fresh aluminum and brass metal of small parts. For anything larger than about half a square inch, I would recommend a primer intended for metal.

And not only is decanting aerosol paints messy, it's dangerous. Stupidly dangerous in my opinion…but what do I know? I only worked in the R&D lab of an aerosol paint company…

I think Ross misunderstood that you meant painting ONTO aluminum, I would certainly prime before painting metals with any paint.

Decanting Tamiya sprays is relatively easy, but can be quite messy. The propellant can cause the decanted paint to do some pretty crazy things, so don't be doing this in the kitchen, bathroom or living room. It can be very messy. I would use a cardboard box large enough to contain an out of control rattle can. It can be very messy. It does requires hardware store lacquer thinner for cleanup, but doesn't really need to be thinned.

Did I mention that it can be really messy?

I have some brand new tamiya acrylics in their rattle cans. is there a way to use them on my AB?

The only aluminum I know of that needs a special primer is Alclad II—definitely not an acrylic.

When I prime with acrylics, I just apply them as I would any other paint. As a general rule, airbrushing is best done in light coats, regardless of the paint used. Future is an exception: I get the best results with a relatively heavy coat, others do better with multiple mist coats.

Airbrushing is, after all, 70 percent practice, 20 percent science, and 30 percent art. Just do the math……

Except for the occasional rattle can, I hand brush exclusively. I LOVE acrylics for covering large areas. It may take an extra coat versus the enamels, but acrylics are so thin that they do not "build up" and obscure detais like a couple of layers of enamel will.

Once past large surface areas like fuselages and wing surfaces, I go either way and prefer enamels for more minute details and drybrushing and highlighting.

ModelMaster enamels and acrylics are good. As well as Polly Scale acrylics. Vallejo are fantsastic, though pricy.

I see, someone mentioned that alum needs to be primed with special primer or else the paint will not stick to it?Anyway when you say you prime with Acrylics, do you mist and blow air on it a few times, and then being to paint eventually?

On a properly cleaned surface, I don't consider a primer necessary for acrylics—in fact, when I do prime, I generally use an acrylic paint. The exception is Model Master. If you must use them, a primer is definitely recommended.

As far as durability is concerned, some brands I have used are more physically fragile than others. MisterKit, in particular, produces a cured coating that is somewhat brittle, but resists alcohols. It is, however, attacked by mineral spirits! Odd stuff, even from my point of view…

Profoxcg

So from what I have gathered (Im new to this btw) is the acrylics came about as a more "less-toxic" paint?
Are there are durability issues?  Will Acrylics chip off  for instance?  What is I paint something (plastic model) that would need to be washed or cleaned with a damp rag every so often? 

I am planning to build static models, but also to paint slot car bodies (hard plastic just like a model) and alum. slot car wheels. With the bodies, they will dirty from being raced and dusty and maybe get a little oil on them from being handled at the race track. So I would then take the body off the car and wash it with water and soap or clean it with a damp towel. The alum wheels, come in silver and sometimes to make the model more "scale like" I would want to paint them black of white etc. I would like a paint that would stick.

At my LHS today, someone mentioned that Tamiya makes a primer for metal?? 

Well please recommend based on my use.

Acrylics are billed as being "less toxic" but that doesn't mean the same as non-toxic. I prefer acrylics for the easy clean up, but I still use a spray booth and regulator.

Acrylics when properly cured (as opposed to merely dry) are very durable, provided you have properly prepped the surface first. A properly cleaned surface, free of mold release agents and fingertip oils can be all that is necessary, but an application of a good primer is recommended.

Check to see if your slots are styrene. I doubt it. Styrene is too brittle for use in the rough and tumble world of slots and RC models. They are most likely Polycarbonate, which requires a special paint. Polycarbonate paints are NOT compatible with styrene.

Any properly cured paint should handle washing with soap and water. Washing with solvents is inviting a new paint job!

Any spray primer will adhere to metal, so will Tamiya's. Tamiya does not make a "metal" primer. All of their primers will adhere to metal.

Best primer for metal is duplicolor sandable primer.  It is available in any auto parts store in the body repair section.  It is made for sticking to metal and plastic.  I have used it on resin as well.  It has a nice 'toothiness' to it, and my paint has never lifted off the model.

Acrylic will work fine as long as you put on a durable topcoat.  I recommend a clear gloss or matte sprak like Krlyon brand, available at any Wally World.

So from what I have gathered (Im new to this btw) is the acrylics came about as a more "less-toxic" paint?
Are there are durability issues?  Will Acrylics chip off  for instance?  What is I paint something (plastic model) that would need to be washed or cleaned with a damp rag every so often? 

I am planning to build static models, but also to paint slot car bodies (hard plastic just like a model) and alum. slot car wheels. With the bodies, they will dirty from being raced and dusty and maybe get a little oil on them from being handled at the race track. So I would then take the body off the car and wash it with water and soap or clean it with a damp towel. The alum wheels, come in silver and sometimes to make the model more "scale like" I would want to paint them black of white etc. I would like a paint that would stick.

At my LHS today, someone mentioned that Tamiya makes a primer for metal?? 

Well please recommend based on my use.

When I first started buying paints (roughly 1984), Testors  were 25 cents a piece at the Ft. Leavenworth PX. By the time we moved in 89 they were up around 85 cents. When we got to Hawaii (also 89), they were $1.15. That's about the time I stopped building for a couple few years.

I really miss soe of those Pactra colors. They had the BEST dark OD shade out there....and Khaki. It compared perfectly with my days old Khaki uniforms.

Hand and TarnShip...you guys probably have me by age, but I'm old enough to remember the Pactra enamel bottles. We used to paint our Matchbox cars with these.

yup, Pactra Authentics in those plastic bottles,,,,,,take pliers to a stuck cap,,,,,and booom,,,,,plastic and paint all over the garage bench,,, they filled the gap until importers started bringing in Humbrol,,,,,they also came in boxed sets back then

Static Addict

Hans von Hammer....Do you (or anyone else) happen to remember when those Testors bottles were $0.49?  Just curious and interested.

I use enamels, acrylics, oils, craft paint, house paint, inks, lacquers and even wifeys nail polish once in a while.

$0.49? Hell, I was buying them when they were $0.19 and the price was printed on the cap...  Practa 'Namel & Testor's were the same price, but it seemed that Practa had the first boxed "Military Colors" set, IIRC...

I remember when I bought my first FSM magazine on a lark back in 1992.....I couldn't believe all the tools and "stuff" that was available just to put a "plastic toy" together.  That is when I started to model....been totally addicted ever since!! 

well, you picked a good time to "jump into" this

we argue, gripe and discuss,,,,,but,,,,,there are many, many more options out there in every aspect of the hobby now

just your question about paints,,,,,,what? 15 lines of paint all told now?,,,,,,that used to be done with Railroad paints and color mixes on index cards,,,,now, name your  specific color, someone makes it if you are open minded about the medium

fun topic to read

Rex

Thanks TarnShip.  I'm no spring chicken but didn't model as a kid.  Took it up in the 90's. 

Static,,,,,some of us "older" modelers remember when the price "jumped UP" to 49 cents,,,,,I think there was a 9 cent bottle at one time, not sure,,,,,but, I do know there were 15 and 19 cent bottles when I was a kid  back in the sixties,,,,,,with a cap that was about 2/3 the diameter of the current cap

side note about Talon paints,,,,,,Hawkeye, you just HAVE to mention the difference in the smell in your adds, or on your site, or something

I "had to" switch to Acrylics (the Lady is allergic to enamels), just recently,,,,,got my Talon order, and when I opened up the first color my thought was,,,,,,,Man, this is sure better than the Floquil Old Silver I used to use (remember the old Diosol to thin it with?)

Now, I sit and paint bomb and missile stripes next to the Lady while watching a movie,,,,,,sure couldn't do that before

one other advantage, at least with PolyScale,,,is that the color doesn't vary between brushing and spraying,,,,,maybe because it doesn't take as much thinner to airbrush as Model Master did

Hans von Hammer....Do you (or anyone else) happen to remember when those Testors bottles were $0.49?  Just curious and interested.

I use enamels, acrylics, oils, craft paint, house paint, inks, lacquers and even wifeys nail polish once in a while.

And to lay yet another ridiculous card on the table, there are more than one way to thwart the access to materials being used to make enamel paints. If the EPA can't stop them, then the Department of Homeland Security will. One of my suppliers sent me a form to fill out at the bequest of the DHS to verify I am not a terrorist making volatile chemicals for evil purposes. Homeland Security is slowing lowering the bar on what are considered excessive quantities. Pretty soon you'll have to have a special permit or license to purchase thinners and solvents. Don't be surprised if you don't have to show an approved form of gov't ID to purchase a quart of paint thinner.

The current administration is closing the gaps between agencies. Think about it. Now with this soon to be passed bill, the IRS will now be in the health care industry as their thugs hired to verify compliance and collection. Think about how they will go about facilitating the control of hobby related chemicals...I'm from the FBI and you're in violation of the domestic chemicals act of 2011. I'm afraid I'll have to have those model paints.

Better stock up on Vasoline, you're gonna need it and that too will be regulated as they know it eases the effect of them...you know.

Fair enough! And I do not mean to come across as giving grief.  I am more of wait and see if and when it really happens mindset. Out here in Cali as you noted, we can barely sneeze without it being thought a new protective law is needed for our own safety, but modelwise things are still good! Several great well stocked hobby shops within a short driving distance and IPMS and AMPS chapters to share your work in person and meet fellow modelers. As bad as things are in some respects, this is one area where life is really good right now.

To clarify (once again):

My contacts in the coatings industry have told me that within the foreseeable future (5 to 10 years) enamels will be gone except for specialty coatings. This is due to the concerns with toxicity and the environment. Exactly when it occurs is the question (probably sooner in places like California, where everything is known to cause cancer or otherwise be hazardous to your health ). But it is coming. What governs the speed with which it comes are the rapidity with which adequate substitutes for them are developed, the amount of resistance from the chemical supply industry, the amount of health and environmental fervor (currently low, as always during a depression), and how much the politicians feel the need to appear to be doing something besides lining their, and their friends, pockets. I suspect one of the big factors pushing this is oil, or the perceived lack thereof.

There is also a possibility that enamel "hobby paints" and oil "artist's paints" may survive as "specialty coatings." That, in some ways, would be worse. Anything with "special" associated with it is spelled $$$$pecial, as in $$$$pecial price.

As most of you methane breathers don't seem to realize, I'll be sad to see them go. As of now, no brushable metallic acrylic paint is worth the polymers it's printed on, at least that I've found. (Haven't tried Vallejo, yet.) Airbrushable metallics have been saved by Hawkeye's Talon acrylics, which are superior paints, IMHO.

So stop giving me grief. You been warned, pilgrim. Forewarned is forearmed…(wait a minute, we all have fore arms…maybe it's supposed to be four armed… )

I dont own any lacquer thinner and have not ever used it to clean my airbrush. Plain old hardware store paint thinner and nylon brushes have sufficed to clean out enamels, and I have tried various things to clean out acrylics (windex, simple green, testors acrylic cleaner) along with those same brushes or pipe cleaners. As far as "rolling with the times", no thanks, not my style (Levi 501s and a flat top never go out of style ). As long as the things I prefer are available I will buy them. If the enamel lines are shut down (highly unlikely in my view)-other folks use them besides us model builders, just look at spray cans, nail enamels, auto touch up paints, etc... I will go 100% acrylic by force, as need be.

stikpusher

Mike, I know you and Ross have both said it, but seriously, the main lines of Enamels here, Testors and Humbrol, do not appear to be going anywhere. They are always well stocked at the LHS and neither company has put out messages saying that those lines are being discontinued. Even overseas, Revell, WEM, and XtraColour appear to be doing well, and those lines (as well as Humbrol) are from countries where the "greens" hold far more control over laws than here. I think the only thing we really see is that Acrylics are for more widespread than they used to be. It's just a thought, but I believe that the few other lines of enamels that have disappeared (Pactra, Floquil) have been due to the fact that Testors bought them out and eventually dropped them (hmmm, corporate raiders? ) rather than any environmental or other reasons. Just look at now Polly Scale is being discontinued- Testors buys them up, raises the prices to be roughly 25%-33% more than "their" own acrylic line, then discontinues the line due to "poor sales".

If the day comes where enamels are truly and seriously gonna go away, I will get a paint stash going too! I do doubt it will be in the near future.

I have only echoed what Ross has stated as he is the expert on paints and where they are going as far as toxicity and so forth are concerned. I stopped using enamels several years ago and see no reason to go back to them. Using lacquer thinner to clean my airbrush is not something I prefer to do as that stuff is noxious and is much more flammable and dangerous than any cleaner for acrylics. People just need to roll with the times and adapt to other paints if need be as it is not that difficult. I have probably sprayed more acrylics in my life through an airbrush than 95% of the people on this forum and they really are not that bad.