*AIRBRUSH OPINION* Iwata or Paasche

Man, I had no idea you guys would be so passionate about this. All this information has been great to learn. Thanks guys.

MikeV

mucker:

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

 

 

Yes Mucker that is a good question. The larger the size of the needle and tip the more paint it will put out!

I have posted in the past two of the airbrushes that I have found to put out the most paint and those were the Badger Crescendo and the Badger Anthem 155.

I think most airbrushers try to find that "perfect airbrush" which can spray mico-thin lines and 12" wide blankets with the twist of a dial!

For me personally I'm trying to narrow down to my own Holy Grail that will accomplish my general work AND smaller detailed mottle on German aircraft. Right now I'm back and forth between my Iwata Evolution  and the Sotar 20/20.

In Bill's automotive terms, I'm more of a Ford-guy...

That's some great info, Bill. Definately a nice guideline from Badger...it gives a realistic expectation of the line size to  the modeller. And you're definately right...there isn't  a huge amount of difference between the three they show.

I wish I would have known that about the 0.2mm needle. If it could spray as wide as 2" it would be suitable...I probably would have bought the Evolution.

Clumsy me dropped my Iwata Evolution HP-CS and broke the threads on the needle chuck. I hemmed and hawed over the replacement parts (@$20 w/ shipping) or "upgrading" to a "better" airbrush. The HP-CS has been my workhorse for many years and I really like the versatility and ease of use/cleaning, but I had some issues with smaller German mottling.

I'm still working out the right formula of paint thickness, air pressure and distance. I fit in the description you made in an earlier post: the capabilities of the AB definately outrank the capabilities of the user!

My only use for "hairline" paintng is on some of the German mottling I'm challenging myself with. They sure had some cool camo schemes and I enjoy the challenge. I want to improve my AB skills.

Needle size is an indicator of line width, but only because that also changes the taper. Neither as mere numbers are going to give novices any clue other than the smaller the size, the thinner the line.

Badger describes their needle sizes as Fine, Medium and Heavy, which tells the novice no more than a  number would. However, they also give you this guide:

• Fine (F) - pencil line to 2" (51mm) spray pattern
• Medium (M) - 1/32" (0.8mm) to 2 1/2" (63mm) spray pattern
• Heavy (H) - 1/16" (1.5mm) to 3" (76mm) spray pattern

I have yet to see a corresponding guide from any other manufacturer.

As you can see, there isn't a huge amount of difference at the narrow end of the spectrum (and how wide is a pencil line? Is that based on an freshly sharpened HB (#2 1/2) or what?), but a bit more at the wide end. And there is still no indication of how far away the needle is from the surface to achieve those sizes!

There are just too many variables to be precise in predicting the pattern without testing. The distance from the surface to the needle and air pressure makes as much or more difference than the needle size. Even the medium used and the the amount of thinner to paint can affect width.

The point is 99% of the time, it barely matters what the needle size or taper is. Very few modelers have the need for pencil thin lines, and most of us are spraying flood coats at around 1" - 2" is width, and all sizes of needles will do that.

Needle size is more an indicator of the difficulty spraying a relatively thick medium like model paint. Clogging tips becomes a greater issue, possibly requiring filtering the paint to remove lumps and a higher thinner to paint ratio, which can invite tip dry with acrylics.

I recommend medium sizes (.4 or .5mm) as being more useful to modelers OVERALL. I've not come across a need for smaller than 1/32" or wider than 2 1/2". I have two 100LGs, one Fine and one Medium, and it's the Medium I use most. I also have a single action 200-20 with Medium and I can spray a thinner line with that than either 100LGs! Which is entirely due to my inability to use a dual action airbrush and hold a thin line consistently.

If you've already bought the Evolution with the .2mm nozzle/needle and are having troubles, you can buy the .4m nozzle/needle as parts. It just costs more to buy them separately than buying the 2 in 1 version.

mucker

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

 

Yes Mucker that is a good question. The larger the size of the needle and tip the more paint it will put out!

I have posted in the past two of the airbrushes that I have found to put out the most paint and those were the Badger Crescendo and the Badger Anthem 155.

I see our horse has risen from the dead!! That just means more kicking

I could be wrong on this (or just mistaken), but on the other end of the spectrum  doesn't  the needle size give some indication of maximum spray width? This was equally important to me in my recent airbrush hunting. A few forum-goers (I think Keilau included) recommended the H&S Evolution, which looks like a tremendous AB, but the 0.2 needle size had me concerned that I couldn't use it for broader applications.

This is true, and the point I was poorly trying to make with the analogy to cars. Let me try again.

To an aficionado, the HP and torque ratings are important specifications, who wants them as bragging rights. Granny, who just wants a grocery getter, could care less what the HP is. She wants to know if she's comfortable and safe. She's going to be more interested in how many miles per gallon, and what her insurance is.

When I bought my last vehicle, I didn't even look at the HP specs. Useless for what I was doing. I was buying a people carrier, and I wanted one that would carry my family in safety and comfort. I wanted to know I wasn't going to spend most of my day at the gas pump, or being bent over the counter at the insurance agent. OMG I'M GRANNY!

And so it is with the average airbrush user. Details like taper length and needle diameter are basically meaningless without a reference point. Engineers LIVE for numbers, so those are important to you.

But if you're going to ask for numbers, ask for what line widths the airbrush is capable of (which is different from what the airbrusher is capable of!), as that is a specification we all can use.

keilau

 

MikeV:

 

 

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them!

 

 

Mike,

There are 2 issues here.

First, does the airbrush buyer deserve to know the nozzle diameter before they buy. I said "yes". How much the nozzle diameter influences the line width is not the issue.

The second issue is the needle taper. You are right that it is one of the most important performance driver. The taper of an Iwata Eclipse fine needle is twice (2 times) the taper length of a Badger Patriot fine needle. And I can feel the difference of the two with the advantage going to the longer taper Iwata. The large nozzle needle of the Iwata (0.5 mm nozzle) has a taper that is 50% longer the Badger fine needle taper (also 0.5 mm nozzle).

I am not an aritist and do not do free hand details. But I like the linear, gradual transition of the longer tapered Iwata for the feel of control it gives me in regular modeling. I care less about how fine a line it can draw.

If you are proposing that the manufacturers should spec BOTH the nozzle diameter AND needle taper length, I am all for it.

Just like the displacement and horsepower of an engine does not determine how well a car drives, but the manufacturer should include those information in the car spec.

You are an engineer and that is why you want so much data on an airbrush.

I am a model builder with some art background with airbrushes and I have also done some machining in my younger days. Those specs don't impress me and they have no bearing on the airbrushes performance and that is why I stress that point so much. It has become a selling point and I think it has misled many into buying an airbrush they did not need to spend so much on but they bought it because it had the smallest tip diameter.

So what? I bet they can't paint any better than a guy with a far less expensive airbrush that doesn't list the diameter of the tip or needle.

There you go, then!

There is nothing wrong with the Paasche VL, it's a fine airbrush and will serve you well. I have both a siphon and gravity fed and I prefer the gravity fed brush, but as you say, that's another kit and a bunch of paint.

If you do buy an airbrush, what are you going to use as a source for air. That is actually a more important, and often more expensive, question as airbrushes are just straws that spit paint.

I'm in the same boat as The Count.  Paasche VL or Iwata HP-CS.  Why?  Because Hobby Lobby is around the corner and they offer 40% off coupons.  If we need a part, we can drive and get it.  Now, sometimes the coupon is 30% off of Wilton Cake Decorating products.  It would be during those times when ordering online and paying shipping would actually be faster, unless we didn't care about paying full retail.  The 40% coupon is about every-over week. 

The Paasche VL lists for about $110 x 60% + 7% FL sales tax = $70.62

The Iwata HP-CS lists for about $179 x 60% + 7% FL sales tax = $114.92.

That's a difference of $44.30 I could spend on kits and paint.

I will never spend the time needed to become a world-class IPMS champion.  I will likely never purchase any photo-etched parts.  I've no intention to build diaramas or cut-aways.  I'll be blessed if I will be able to successfully mask off a canopy.

The Iwata looks nice but I'm sure the Paasche will be good enough for me provided my Sprayit 600-13 compressor can push paint through it.  And as I've never airbrushed before, I'll probably be happy with whatever I use first.

No fair bringing a motorcycle to a car fight!

My bike daze are long past (or is it that I'm long past my prime? No matter!) but the chicks used to dig my '76 Kawasaki 1000, done up as a cafe racer (3/4 fairing, flat bars, resets, full racing leathers) back in the day. Between that bike and my '67 'Cuda I was on first name basis with the local RCMP constabulary!

Sure didn't go as fast at that Ninja. Don't know if I ever want to go as fast as that Ninja without a couple more tires on the ground and a roll cage!

Bgrigg

Let's look at it this way, The Porsche 911 GT3 RS has a 3.8 liter flat 6 putting out 450hp and costs $136,000 as a base model. The Lotus Exige SC has a 1.8 liter inline 4 that puts out 240hp and costs $75,000.

Which is faster?

Ninja ZX-14.  $14,000

195.6 mph  0-60 in 2.5 seconds!  Like having an Acme rocket between your legs!

As for the leggy blonds girlfriend, well lets say that when I was a bit younger and lived in Florida, My 600 ninja was very popular with Ms. Du Jour!

That's why I mentioned the Jag at the end! That's the one the leggy blond really likes best!

Yeah, I guess Keilau has a point about the specifications. Any information that give the consumer a clue to what to expect is helpful, which is why I like to see "real world" numbers like 1/16" to 2" in preference to .5mm.

I'll give the horse a chance to catch it's breath now...

Bgrigg

Which is the better car?

And if an airbrush cost thousands of dollars, it might be more pertinent. However, so far I've never seen any airbrush manufacturer state the taper length on their websites, and while most state the needle diameter, most don't tell you what that actually means. So as specifications they are useless. As useless as HP specs on cars without some idea of how that HP is applied. All I care about is how thin, and how fat of a line can I spray. Badger will tell me that. Most other airbrushes won't. Needle diameter and taper is just so much fluff.

Let's look at it this way, The Porsche 911 GT3 RS has a 3.8 liter flat 6 putting out 450hp and costs $136,000 as a base model. The Lotus Exige SC has a 1.8 liter inline 4 that puts out 240hp and costs $75,000.

Which is faster?

You don't know, do you? At least, not from those specs. I haven't told you weight, torque or a whole slew of other specs that will help.

Fact is, they accelerate from 0-60mph in the same 4.0 second time. The Porsche weigh in at 3082 lbs, and the Lotus is a svelte 2077 lbs. The Lotus will show up the Porsche on the track, too.

But the Porsche will make your leggy blond girlfriend much happier! Which is the better car? Much harder to say, as both are created as toys for boys who spend their weekends on the race course. Your leggy blond friend just left with the guy in the Jaguar!

The poor horse has been dead for a while now....

MikeV

 

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them!

Mike,

There are 2 issues here.

First, does the airbrush buyer deserve to know the nozzle diameter before they buy. I said "yes". How much the nozzle diameter influences the line width is not the issue.

The second issue is the needle taper. You are right that it is one of the most important performance driver. The taper of an Iwata Eclipse fine needle is twice (2 times) the taper length of a Badger Patriot fine needle. And I can feel the difference of the two with the advantage going to the longer taper Iwata. The large nozzle needle of the Iwata (0.5 mm nozzle) has a taper that is 50% longer the Badger fine needle taper (also 0.5 mm nozzle).

I am not an aritist and do not do free hand details. But I like the linear, gradual transition of the longer tapered Iwata for the feel of control it gives me in regular modeling. I care less about how fine a line it can draw.

If you are proposing that the manufacturers should spec BOTH the nozzle diameter AND needle taper length, I am all for it.

Just like the displacement and horsepower of an engine does not determine how well a car drives, but the manufacturer should include those information in the car spec.

Once you add the sales tax it's a toss up on the Hobby Lobby price. 

As I said before Hobby Lobby only carries Iwata and Paasche, why limit yourself to just two companies.

I bought a HP-BCS at Hobby Lobby awhile back with a 40% discount coupon and found out later that I could have save $10.00 by ordering from the internet.

keilau

 

 

 

Mike, Don and Bill,

You guys are all missing the point here. It is not about how fine a line. It is about whether the customer who lays out his hard cash deserved the information of the airbrush. When I am told that the nozzle has a fine nozzle, I want to know if it is 0.2 mm fine or 0.5 mm fine instead of being radiculed for asking irrelevant information.

No Keilau I am sorry but it is you who are missing the real relevant points here as usual!

The diameter of the needle and tip don't mean much and I have even heard you say so. Why now are you reversing yourself? I have told you over and over ad nauseam that needle taper is the determining factor of an airbrushes line width and I have also seen you echo that comment as well. Do you think the airbrush manufacturers should also give out the needle taper diameters as a selling point? 

Some people really need to get educated on what an airbrush can do and why and stop nit picking the measurement details which mean little to nothing to 98% of those using them!

mucker

The Count:

Man, thank you all so much for the info.

I am not sure what the model number is on the paasche. I have to choose from these brands because this is just about all they carry at hobby lobby and for other reasons, that is where i have to buy this equipment.

Count: If it's down to what Hobby Lobby carries, the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS, hands down. Mine is 8+ years strong with the same needle.

Second.

With the 40% off coupon, the Iwata Eclipse HP-BCS or the HP-CS at Hobby Lobby beats any internet price from other Iwata dealers. They also carries the nozzle and needle for both. Replacement parts will be cheap and readily available when you need them.

Hobby Lobby does not carry the Paasche Talon or the Millennium at my location. The old VL design does not feel as comfortable as the modern ones in hand.

If you consider mail order, the Hardee & Steenbeck at Chicago Airbrush is a very good deal too. I got a Evolution Silverline Solo shipped free and 10% off the price.

LOL! No harm, no foul.

Done it myself. You copy something, then think you copied something else and paste without really looking. Darned clipboard and it's darned long memory!

Sorry about the bad link, didn't keep my eye on the ball.  I went back and corrected the link.

Soooo, Count, after reading the various input here, are you any closer to making a decision on an airbrush? Just curious as to what you come up with. Whatever the choice, be sure to post your initial comments or "review" (and maybe a few pics of your initial work!)

Could have been a far worse incorrect link!

tyamada

I have found that Chicago Airbrush Supply has very good prices and includes free shipping.

http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/us/en/Content/1153321224268?pid=1208716781313

Tyamada, excellent link for when I want to update Video Studio 11, but I think this is a better link to Chicago Airbrush!:

http://www.chicagoairbrushsupply.com/

The Count

Man, thank you all so much for the info.

I am not sure what the model number is on the paasche. I have to choose from these brands because this is just about all they carry at hobby lobby and for other reasons, that is where i have to buy this equipment.

Even with the 40% discount coupon from Hobby Lobby you can do better getting an airbrush on the internet.  The prices at Hobby Lobby are inflated so they can give you the discount.

Also you are not limited to Iwata and Paasche. 

I have found that Chicago Airbrush Supply has very good prices and includes free shipping.

http://www.chicagoairbrushsupply.com/

MikeV

 

It is all a matter of taste. Coming from a family of master heavy equipment mechanics I like to compare airbrushes to wrenches. Yes Snap-On are nice and they are polished and shiny, but do they do their intended task better than Mac, Proto, or even Craftsman? No they do not. Some perceive them as being better because of marketing and so forth but the truth stands, it is the hand wielding the tool that makes the difference. As I learned in martial arts many years ago, it is the man that makes the art, not the art that makes the man!

I've owned Testors', Badger,generic, and Paasche. I've even used Iwata,  and none of these expensive ones were any better than the testors. or Badger. The Paasche was the best in terms of ease of use, cost, flexability  and features! I was sold on it,even after using the Iwata, and Thayer and Chandler brands. They just have pretty chrome, and nice built in unchangeable  paint cups with the "one size fits all" paint nozzles, and the prestige of the name with the high price tag - nothing much more in terms of being better than anything else I've tried.  I borrowed my friends' Paasche VL after all the others broke, or wore out, or other problems that I had with them, and I was instantly satisfied with the results after adjusting it to the spray pattern I needed. This took less than a minute.

I understand people swearing by a certain brand because someone else uses it,and turned them on to it. I also understand those who swear by a certain brand because it's what they're used to thinking that it makes them a better modeler - but experience speaks for itself for many professionals,and amatures alike. Some companies pander to the whims of popular opinion, and offer something flashy, or shiny and attractive (the newer brands do this) in order to establish themselves in the market. This is just a strategy to get you to buy something that you really don't need! I've used airbrushes for over twenty years, and I'm not just posting to win a popularity contest.

Use your best judgement . Ask yourself a few questions before buying:

 Are you going to use this all the time?

What medium are you going to use it for?

What type of budget are you setting for how often, or how much you want, or need to use it?

What type of projects are you using it on?

How proficient are you at airbrushing? 

What types have you looked at?

Who can  you trust to give you a fair, and unbiased opinion?

How well do you know areosol based spray equipment?

What features are you looking for?

What all is required to use this equipment, and how much does it all cost?

Will this be a good return on my investment?

Does the usage really justify the cost?

How easy is it to get replacement parts when something wears out, or breaks?

What kind of warranty does each of these come with?

What kind of paints/solvents are compatible with this airbrush?

Do you need any special equipment to operate this tool safely?

Will this meet my needs?

Do I have to replace parts often?

Who can show me the difference between the brands on a finished project so that I can compare quality?

Most people won't think this through to this degree, but read everything you can about the particular airbrush you're interested in before buying. You don't need the most expensive model to paint professionally. Start out with an inexpensive, or intermediary model that has more than one head, or tip on it,so that you can adjust, and figure out how to change, maintain, and get the most out of your airbrushing experience before graduating to another model, or more expensive brand. A Rolls Royce in the hands of someone who can't drive a stick shift is like giving a scapel to someone, and having them operate!  It doesn't make sense to buy the most expensive one when you're starting out. Just because it's expensive, that doesn't mean that it'll make you a great painter, YOU have to make yourself a great painter no matter whos' airbrush you're using.

If you can get a pencil thin line with your airbrush - then that's a good airbrush!!! No one needs a line thinner than that. If you want to write checks with it - a pen will more than suffice! It's impracitcal to think that you need a line any smaller than this, and it also means that if you can get a line this tiny, that you've mastered adjustment of one of these. If you need something smaller - a regular artists' paintbrush will do for something as small as a D&D figurine! This means that you no longer need an airbrush, as this is not what they're made for.

I have a friend that has a Paasche endorsement and I also have a few photos that he sent me using a Paasche on the very projects that got him the endorsement in the first place. I can't post the photos here as they're copywritten, but I can give you the website when I get the URL - I'll post it here.  

Here's where you can buy airbrushes of all kinds:  WWW.BEARAIR.COM

                                                                                                                                          ~ Cobra Chris

Keilau, I am not ridiculing you for your opinion, only pointing out that .35mm .54mm or .73mm is a meaningless number without some form of context. A novice is not going to understand what those numbers mean. And I agree that fine, medium and large aren't any better, but Badger at least puts a size range for each type on their website. Looking at 1/16" to 2" lets me know quite accurately what the AB should be able to do. Pencil width is almost as useless. Is that a sharp or dull pencil width?