Badger Krome or Paasche Talon

I have two airbrushes,,,  a Paasche single action and a Paasche double action.  I've been using them for many many years. I have no complaints.

I don't know Keilau as linear flow angles and all that mechanical engineering jargon doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

I just go by the results I see when I use an airbrush. What the cone and needle size and taper is are inconsequential to me as an airbrush user.

GreenThumb

Keilau, the "standard" Sotar 20/20 comes with the medium (white) needle and I assume it is what Ken was talking about when he told me it was the same spray pattern basically as the standard Krome and Velocity.

I would have to ask Ken for any specifics you are talking about.

Most SOTAR seller asked you to select the needle/tip size when ordering. It is a $400 airbrush with a street price about $300. It is a lot more airbrush than most modeler would need. On the other hand, the Krome was designed with inputs from modeler Cyrus Tang and price at about $120.

Ken published the linear air flow angles for the Renegades. He used to do the same for SOTAR, but those SOTAR spec disappeared recently.

Keilau, the "standard" Sotar 20/20 comes with the medium (white) needle and I assume it is what Ken was talking about when he told me it was the same spray pattern basically as the standard Krome and Velocity.

I would have to ask Ken for any specifics you are talking about.

GreenThumb

keilau:

GreenThumb:

"The atomization/spray pattern potential of all three is the same."

From the horses mouth so to speak.

The SOTAR 20/20 has 3 sets of needle/nozzle, fine, medium and large. Which one has the same pattern as the Velocity/Krome?

MODEL 2020-2
The 20/20® with mounted 1/12 oz. color cup allows for extended use before having to add color.

Fine (Black) - "Hair" line to 3/4" (19mm) spray pattern.
Medium (White ) - Pen line to 1" (25mm) spray pattern.
Large (Clear - Pencil line to 1-1/4" (31mm) spray pattern.

If all have the same atomization/spray pattern, why does Badger bother to make 3 different ones?

 

 No Keilau, that was in reference to the Velocity, Krome and Sotar 20/20 when I said "all three"

Mike, I understood what you meant when saying "all three". But there are 3 different versions of the SOTAR which have distinctive different atomization/patterns. The question was : Which SOTAR is the Renegade similar to?

Intuitively, I will think that should be the SOTAR with a linear air flow angle that is the same as the Renegade. But in the recent web site, Badger does not publish the different spec of the 3 SOTAR anymore. From older Badger literature, I just know that the fine (used to be called ultra fine) needle of SOTAR had a smaller angle than the Renegade Krome.

What do you know about the different SOTAR?

keilau

 

GreenThumb:

 

"The atomization/spray pattern potential of all three is the same."

From the horses mouth so to speak.

 

 

The SOTAR 20/20 has 3 sets of needle/nozzle, fine, medium and large. Which one has the same pattern as the Velocity/Krome?

MODEL 2020-2
The 20/20® with mounted 1/12 oz. color cup allows for extended use before having to add color.

Fine (Black) - "Hair" line to 3/4" (19mm) spray pattern.
Medium (White ) - Pen line to 1" (25mm) spray pattern.
Large (Clear - Pencil line to 1-1/4" (31mm) spray pattern.

If all have the same atomization/spray pattern, why does Badger bother to make 3 different ones?

No Keilau, that was in reference to the Velocity, Krome and Sotar 20/20 when I said "all three"

denstore

If the new *** is anything like the old one, the changes of the airbrush is clearly noticable. I have both the standard Richpen 213C and the old ***, and difference in feel and performance is there, even for the novice. The standard 213C, even when equipped with a 0.2mm nozzle setup will not produce as tight and clean lines, so Learns tuning does work. The *** simply feels a lot smoother and easier to find that thin line with.

My guess is that he reached a point where obtaining more of the out of production 213 became a to costly, and that he approached different airbrush manufacturers for a new airbrush to enhance. The Talon is a sound construction, and it isn't very expensive. And probably it has good tuning potential. I've only tried the Talon once, and based on that experience, my guess is that a better balanced, and smoother version could be a very good airbrush.

The new Mojo3 costs just over $200. It is cheaper than many of the Iwata models. If Mike Learn's majic works as the old ones, it will make that quite a buy.

Mike Learn makes a big point about his needle using the 440C stainless steel. According to a study done by an Italian Professor on What is an Iwata airbrush made of? The Iwata needle is just plain 304 stainless steel. Prof. Zsolt compared it to the Paasche needle and noted that Paasche used molybdenum dopped steel which is superior to the 304 (much harder). But he concluded that the Iwata needle is the better one and less prone to bending. It is the manufacturing process that makes the difference. Iwata uses a nickel based superalloy to make the nozzle of both the Micro and Eclipse series airbrush. Not sure what the Talon nozzle is made of.

Mike Learn sells his needle and nozzle really cheap. I wonder if they can be used to improve the plain Talon? Yes, I understand that the large paint cup makes the Talon poorly balanced and it will not be the same as the Mojo3.

What is holding you back from getting the Mojo3? Can I expect to see a review from you soon?

Wingman_kz

No, sorry keilau, I don't have the story. There's been some discussion about it on another board. At least one member, maybe two, bought them to try out and seemed happy with them. Don't know whether he changes the cup or buys without the cup mounted and installs his own. True, they aren't inexpensive and I don't intend to buy one but, they are  tuned up and dialed in. And, as someone said on yet another board, collecting airbrushes is much less expensive than say, building cars or bikes or collecting firearms. So, if someone wants one and has the money to spend then who am I to tell them they don't need it. I'm not telling them they do either. Just that it's out there.

However, the first time that I pulled the trigger on my $73 Revolution CR that I got for $65 shipped on sale I immediately noticed a difference. But it wasn't overpriced so I guess I don't fit in that top 10%. Just your average Joe. Or...

Tony

If the new *** is anything like the old one, the changes of the airbrush is clearly noticable. I have both the standard Richpen 213C and the old ***, and difference in feel and performance is there, even for the novice. The standard 213C, even when equipped with a 0.2mm nozzle setup will not produce as tight and clean lines, so Learns tuning does work. The *** simply feels a lot smoother and easier to find that thin line with.

My guess is that he reached a point where obtaining more of the out of production 213 became a to costly, and that he approached different airbrush manufacturers for a new airbrush to enhance. The Talon is a sound construction, and it isn't very expensive. And probably it has good tuning potential. I've only tried the Talon once, and based on that experience, my guess is that a better balanced, and smoother version could be a very good airbrush.

I've been comparing airbrush "collecting" to other hobbies for years, and it feels good that other have started to see the same thing. Even when buying the high end models, it is quite affordable compared to many other hobbies or sports. I have airbrushes of most brands and models, and I feel that it is an enjoyable little hobby in itself, that works well with my modelling hobby. And I get a lot more pleasure per spent dollar (or krona, really) out of buying "overpriced japanese airbrushes" than I got from any of my other hobbies. Friends call me crazy spending $500 on an airbrush, and in the next moment they tell me about the fantastic golf club or digital camera they just purchased....

GreenThumb

"The atomization/spray pattern potential of all three is the same."

From the horses mouth so to speak.

The SOTAR 20/20 has 3 sets of needle/nozzle, fine, medium and large. Which one has the same pattern as the Velocity/Krome?

MODEL 2020-2
The 20/20® with mounted 1/12 oz. color cup allows for extended use before having to add color.

Fine (Black) - "Hair" line to 3/4" (19mm) spray pattern.
Medium (White ) - Pen line to 1" (25mm) spray pattern.
Large (Clear - Pencil line to 1-1/4" (31mm) spray pattern.

If all have the same atomization/spray pattern, why does Badger bother to make 3 different ones?

"The atomization/spray pattern potential of all three is the same."

From the horses mouth so to speak.

GreenThumb

brickshooter:

I only use 2 brushes.  A Velocity for general work. And a Sotar for detailed work.  They don't spray the same. 

Do they have the same needle/tip? They come with the same unless you are using the Sotar UF needle and tip.

The SOTAR 20/20 Fine and Renegade Krome have very different needle. The Renegade Velocity and Krome share the same needle/tip set. Their needle is very similar to the Iwata HP-CS. For your reference:

As said by the Badger website, I also found strong correlation between the linear air flow angle and the airbrush action. The exceptions are the Chinese knock-offs, including the Neo for Iwata.

just sold my talon. 

Using the UF needle & tip.   

brickshooter

I only use 2 brushes.  A Velocity for general work. And a Sotar for detailed work.  They don't spray the same. 

Do they have the same needle/tip? They come with the same unless you are using the Sotar UF needle and tip.

GreenThumb

keilau:

montague:

I was wondering your opinion on this. I have an Iwata hp-cs. Great airbrush! I was looking for something with the ability for very fine work, possibly with a needle stop and was looking at both the Krome and a Talon with the fine needle set in it. I use mostly acrylics.

I have looked on you tube at several reviews but you guys are truly experts in my opinion so I will let you make reccomendations.

 

Krome is a very well balanced airbrush. But I am not sure that it is much more detailed than the HP-CS. I have both.

You may want to consider the SOTAR 20/20 or the H&R 0.19 mm if looking for a detail AB.

 

The Krome has the same tip/needle as the Velocity and the Sotar 20/20 so it is in the same category as Iwata's top airbrushes like the Micron and plus series. The HP-CS is a little less fine line capable and is more in the category of the Badger Patriot, etc.

I only use 2 brushes.  A Velocity for general work. And a Sotar for detailed work.  They don't spray the same.  The Sotar's maximum coverage is smaller.  It sprays less paint.  It's more accurate. And it has zero overspray.  Your index finger is literally right over the spray spot.  That being said, you better mix your paint right for the Sotar, particulary acrylics.   And the lighter the acrylic color, the more difficult I have spraying it.

keilau

Well, most of us need only 10% of the models that we purchased. The other 90% go into the stash.

I have 7 airbrushes and can use only one at a time. It is just a hobby.

That is irrelevant to this discussion I think. If someone wants something just because it is new and they like it then fine, buy it. I own 15.

If however they are asking for an honest opinion on an airbrush's ability to spray a certain way, which I thought this thread was about, then that is what I am answering with my opinion.

For the record, Mike Learn and the other well known Airbrush Action artists are paid to endorse the products they use so take what they say with a grain of salt.

keilau

montague:

I was wondering your opinion on this. I have an Iwata hp-cs. Great airbrush! I was looking for something with the ability for very fine work, possibly with a needle stop and was looking at both the Krome and a Talon with the fine needle set in it. I use mostly acrylics.

I have looked on you tube at several reviews but you guys are truly experts in my opinion so I will let you make reccomendations.

 

Krome is a very well balanced airbrush. But I am not sure that it is much more detailed than the HP-CS. I have both.

You may want to consider the SOTAR 20/20 or the H&R 0.19 mm if looking for a detail AB.

The Krome has the same tip/needle as the Velocity and the Sotar 20/20 so it is in the same category as Iwata's top airbrushes like the Micron and plus series. The HP-CS is a little less fine line capable and is more in the category of the Badger Patriot, etc.

Wingman_kz

, Collecting airbrushes is much less expensive than say, building cars or bikes or collecting firearms. So, if someone wants one and has the money to spend then who am I to tell them they don't need it. I'm not telling them they do either. Just that it's out there.

Tony

Tony,

I get your point. Never tell anyone on this forum that he/she does not need the next model kit either.

No, sorry keilau, I don't have the story. There's been some discussion about it on another board. At least one member, maybe two, bought them to try out and seemed happy with them. Don't know whether he changes the cup or buys without the cup mounted and installs his own. True, they aren't inexpensive and I don't intend to buy one but, they are  tuned up and dialed in. And, as someone said on yet another board, collecting airbrushes is much less expensive than say, building cars or bikes or collecting firearms. So, if someone wants one and has the money to spend then who am I to tell them they don't need it. I'm not telling them they do either. Just that it's out there.

However, the first time that I pulled the trigger on my $73 Revolution CR that I got for $65 shipped on sale I immediately noticed a difference. But it wasn't overpriced so I guess I don't fit in that top 10%. Just your average Joe. Or...

Tony

GreenThumb

STJohnson:

I went and looked at the second versionof the Richpen Phoenis 213C from Bear Air.

 It is called a "Plus .

 Definately more $$ than a Krome!

 

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the airbrush users on this forum would not see any better results from the high dollar Japanese airbrushes over what Badger and others are producing.

Well, most of us need only 10% of the models that we purchased. The other 90% go into the stash.

I have 7 airbrushes and can use only one at a time. It is just a hobby.

STJohnson

I went and looked at the second versionof the Richpen Phoenis 213C from Bear Air.

 It is called a "Plus .

 Definately more $$ than a Krome!

 

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the airbrush users on this forum would not see any better results from the high dollar Japanese airbrushes over what Badger and others are producing.

I went and looked at the second versionof the Richpen Phoenis 213C from Bear Air.

 It is called a "Plus .

 Definately more $$ than a Krome!

Steve

Here's a link to the *** III by Mike Learn. Its 30 minutes of Mr. Learn explaining the differences between his brush and a stock "Talon". Sounds like it is still evolving with the additon of a .12 n/n and stainless hardened needles etc. There was something else and I can't remember what it was???????

 Evidently he's had many people calling it a "just a Talon"??

 I own neither and can't comment, but you may find it interesting??

http://www.learnairbrush.com/content.php?411-The-Making-of-the-Generation-III-***-USA-Precision-Airbrush

The Richpen is still available & sold and serviced by Bear air. I was told they will continue the Richpens.

Several models are listed. You can buy the stock Phoenix 213C (.3 n/n) or you can get a modified version with  a .2 n/n.  They even have there own version of the Richpen ***. I think they call it "Super Tuned". Again I don't own any Richpens and can't comment on them.

Hope this helps

Steve

Wingman_kz

The Talon must have something going for it if Mike Learn based his latest *** on it. Or maybe there were incentives...

Tony, any inside story on this? I went to Mike Learn website and saw his *** 3. The first thing that I notice was that the cup size is completely different from the Talon. Talon was known to be not very well balanced due to the large paint cup.

The *** 3 promised cheaper price and spares, but still 3 times that of Talon and double of Krome. The old Richpen based *** seems to be gone for good.

I suggest Hp-Sb Plus because in my personal opinion is in the same class of sotar20\20 or H&S....surely the price is not cheaper........I think the best choice is the new badger Krome...Ciao Enrico.

Wingman_kz

The Talon must have something going for it if Mike Learn based his latest *** on it. Or maybe there were incentives...

You think?

You remind me of the lyrics from a Metallica song.

*You can do it your own way... If it's done just how I say*

The Talon must have something going for it if Mike Learn based his latest *** on it. Or maybe there were incentives...

Tony