Harder and Steenbeck Evolution 2 in 1 Airbrush.

If it is new as stated & it doesn't go far beyond the bid price, it's not a bad deal.

Full price for what's on offer would be around $188 + delivery, so the "buy it now" price is excessive when you can get the same, for less, from an official dealer with a warranty!

All you are getting in addition to a standard Evolution 2in1 is 2 x paint cup lids, a nozzle cleaning kit & a seal kit - the 2in1 kit includes two needle/nozzle sets & two paint cups as standard. 

I see your point. I looked up the airbrush and the parts. The airbrush set is $198.00, The cleaner is $19.00, the rings are $10. and the caps are $10. Brand new that is $240.00 plus shipping. Doogsatx says it is a great brush. As good as an Iwata Hp-CS? The Evolution is $125.00 now for a bid.

montague

Doogsatx says it is a great brush. As good as an Iwata Hp-CS?

It's a better airbrush than the HP-CS. A few reasons:

1 - swappable paint cups...awesome for different size work as well as cleaning

2 - Lot more flexibility in terms of needle/nozzle options. .15mm up to .6mm I believe, with a .2 and .4mm in between.

3 - Ever driven a German car with a really well sorted manual transmission? That's what the trigger feels like. Light, but ultra-precise.

4 - Paint cup design is easier to clean than Iwata's shallow bowel-at-bottom setup. At least for me.

5 - Needle/nozzle removal and cleaning are a lot less perilous - ESPECIALLY compared to not the CS, but the HP-C+ with its tiny nozzle piece. 

It has a few drawbacks, all slight - biggest is a tendency to spatter when the trigger is first depressed (something my Iwatas never do), but a lot of airbrushes do that and it's common wisdom to start airflow off the model anyway. Also, none of the cap designs make it easy to block the front and gargle the airbrush. You either have an open cap or one with two prongs to protect the needle. 

Still...slickest, best airbrush I've ever used. Until I can put the new flagship through her paces:

Ditto on DoogsATX review of the H&S.  I have 2 Iwata's that I stopped using a couple of years ago since receiving the same H&S AB shown in DoogsATX's photos.  In my opinion, H&S offers absolutely the best combination of rock-solid performance, versatility, and ease of cleaning and maintenance.  They're not cheap, but mine has been worth every penny--- and then some.

Tom    

montague

The airbrush set is $198.00, The cleaner is $19.00, the rings are $10. and the caps are $10. Brand new that is $240.00 plus shipping.

My mistake - $240 it is.

Like has been said, the H&S brushes are very good, they spray well, are well built, a breeze to clean & above all else they are very versatile with the 4 needle / nozzle combinations.

There are a few other extras available for them that may come in useful at a later date - fPc (fine pressure control) valve, Quick fix rear end (adjustable needle stop to limit paint flow) & a side feed conversion kit that uses 15ml paint jars.

montague

What do you think? Soundsl ike a deal. If found it on ebay here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300642129011&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123

Maybe worth a look?

You are making the right move by breaking the $100 budget limit. It is a very good airbrush as others already said. Give it a try with your maximum bid, but you may not be able to win the auction at $125.

I got my H&S Evolution Silverline SOLO (0.2 mm nozzle) for $130 at Chicago Airbrush when they had the 13% off and free shipping deal. If you want the larger nozzle too, get the 2-in-1. H&S parts are somewhat more expensive the others.

You can also get the Iwata HP-CS for under $120 at Hobby Lobby using their 40% off coupon and the Badger Krome is under $120 at normal price. You can add larger nozzle option to either for about $20 (3 parts needed, needle, nozzle and crown).

You should have no regret going with any of the above mentioned options for modeling. I have all three and still use the HP-CS most of the time only I got it first and used to it.

Good luck and let us know how you finally decide.

Badger Krome. Nothing better and American made.

GreenThumb

Badger Krome. Nothing better and American made.

I actually sold my two Badgers about a month ago. Nice brushes, but the double taper on the needles kept tripping me up. Totally a matter of personal preference, but I'll take the linear action of a single-taper any day. 

DoogsATX

GreenThumb:

Badger Krome. Nothing better and American made.

 

I actually sold my two Badgers about a month ago. Nice brushes, but the double taper on the needles kept tripping me up. Totally a matter of personal preference, but I'll take the linear action of a single-taper any day. 

The Krome is the second Badger I have. It is nights and days better than the Patriot 105 Fine. The Krome has a straight needle tip that gives it the linear trigger action similar to Iwata and H&S. Badger makes 4 different lines of airbrushes.

The 105/155/175 series is the economical line.

The 100/150 series is the classic.

The Renegade series is the affordable high end.

The SOTAR is the expensive artist series.

The fine needle and nozzle set (same "fine" designation, different parts numbers) from each series have different dimension, different shape and different finish. They also work very differently. The Renegade Velocity/Krome and the SOTAR are the ones that do not have the double cone needle tip.

I would never buy a krome. i was asking specifically on the Harder and Steenbeck.

montague

I would never buy a krome.

Why would you never buy a Krome?

GreenThumb

montague:

I would never buy a krome.

 

Why would you never buy a Krome?

I own all kinds of Air Brushe brands and I will have to say that none have better service (if you ever need it) than Badger. They are a stand up company, that will always have my business.

montague

I would never buy a krome. i was asking specifically on the Harder and Steenbeck.

Go for it if you you can get the Evolution 2-in-1 for $125. But it is an auction and there is no guarrantte that it will go at that price. Let us know how you fare and whether it comes with (H&S's 10 years) warranty.

The Iwata HP-CS and Badger Krome are much closer to your $100 limit and far better than the Anthem.  They come with 5-years or life time warranty respective. Something worth considering.

keilau

 

montague:

 

I would never buy a krome. i was asking specifically on the Harder and Steenbeck.

 

 

Go for it if you you can get the Evolution 2-in-1 for $125. But it is an auction and there is no guarrantte that it will go at that price. Let us know how you fare and whether it comes with (H&S's 10 years) warranty.

The Iwata HP-CS and Badger Krome are much closer to your $100 limit and far better than the Anthem.  They come with 5-years or life time warranty respective. Something worth considering.

I am still waiting to hear why he "would never buy a Krome?" 

What's wrong with the Krome?

I just don't like it.

The HS Evo is a great brush: period. Things just fit right. I have a Paasche Talon which also carries a .25 needle (I use the .5). It's perfectly good and I'm sure a fine modeler could make a terrific kit. (Some gurus use Paasche H single action models on the very good grounds that they're simple to clean.) But the HS spray is more consistent and odd things don't happen, like having the trigger lose its alignment while cleaning the needle, a Paasche specialty.

As it stands, I use all of my brushes. The HS is my standard weapon, but if I'm covering a large area I'll often use the Talon. I have an old Paasche VLS that's my Pledge special. (Actually I kind of like the lunker feel of it.) And at my other place I have a Chinese knock-off called Master with .25 needle that works just fine and cost $35. Anyway, painters use more than one kind of brush. With quick change gadgets for the hose, I think having two brushes ready to roll is a very good idea. If nothing else, one could break. You'll use your brush for years. Nowdays Tamiya is getting as much money as an Evo costs for a 32 scale Spit or Mustang.

Eric

montague

I just don't like it.

Have you held one or tried it?

It blows away the Iwata HP-CS I had, so does the Patriot 105 in my opinion.

Yes I have in fact tried a Krome. I got one from mid tenn hobbies and tried it at home with several paints, thinner ratios, pressures and the like. For a Badger product it is nice, but compared to an Iwata HP-CS or Harder and Steenbeck or Grex, it is sub standard. I would put it in league wirh a Paasche Talon and that is not a good thing for a flagship airbrush!

After test driving it I found the movement was a more than a  little rough, still more overspray than with the above mentioned brands, flimsy needle (should have been hardend like an Iwata for that money), far too sensitive with thinning ratios and pressure to be an effective modeling airbrush. Just too finicky.  I contacted Badger, trying to get a response from Ken in fact, and was left in the cold for answers and support.

Based on all those factors I decided that there are better airbrushes than a Krome in design, manufacture, ease of use, cleaning and performance. Sorry to pop anyones bubble but you asked for a reply. I think any Iwata Eclipse or higher range, H&S Evolution and over and most better Grex Will be a better airbrush in build, versitility and performance without question. Don't buy hype, buy quality.

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

montague

Yes I have in fact tried a Krome. I got one from mid tenn hobbies and tried it at home with several paints, thinner ratios, pressures and the like. For a Badger product it is nice, but compared to an Iwata HP-CS or Harder and Steenbeck or Grex, it is sub standard. I would put it in league wirh a Paasche Talon and that is not a good thing for a flagship airbrush!

After test driving it I found the movement was a more than a  little rough, still more overspray than with the above mentioned brands, flimsy needle (should have been hardend like an Iwata for that money), far too sensitive with thinning ratios and pressure to be an effective modeling airbrush. Just too finicky.  I contacted Badger, trying to get a response from Ken in fact, and was left in the cold for answers and support.

Based on all those factors I decided that there are better airbrushes than a Krome in design, manufacture, ease of use, cleaning and performance. Sorry to pop anyones bubble but you asked for a reply. I think any Iwata Eclipse or higher range, H&S Evolution and over and most better Grex Will be a better airbrush in build, versitility and performance without question. Don't buy hype, buy quality.

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

Well you are entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong.

I have been airbrushing for 20 years and own 15 different Badgers and have owned other airbrushes as well including an HP-CS which was nice but not as good as the Krome, Renegade or Sotar 2020 in any way. In fact the trigger stuck a lot. Typical for a Japanese copy of an American airbrush.

In the same league as the Paasche Talon? Haha. Thanks for the laugh.

No response from Ken huh? I find that very hard to believe as he is a friend of mine and he would bend over backwards to make anything right with his products. He is very busy at times and takes a long time to answer the hundreds of emails he gets.

You can say what you want about it. I know what I feel on the matter and that is not wrong, merely different than you, which to YOU is wrong I suppose It is a fact that Ken was non responsive on this matter and that is the truth. It sounds that I must have hit a nerve with your "Buy American" mentality on this which is not mature to begin with. Thats why there is foreign competition., sometimes they are just better as this case shows.  Buy all the badger stuff you want, there is no stopping you but to put in the class of the Iwata's and H&S is not very well thought through. I will not keep responding to  Badger fans on this. I wanted an opinion on the Harder and Stennbeck that is up on ebay. I know that it superior to ANY badger, that was not the question. I wanted an opinion on the price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300642129011?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

montague

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

I think that might be the key to your disappointment.  An airbrush with a tip as small as the Krome is going to be fussier and more fragile.  That's why I don't recommend it for general use.  But, maybe you are used to tips that small.

I won't argue with your judgement on Badger vs. Iwata, Grex, and H&S, because I've never tried them.  You may be right.  But, I've seen many comments on this and other forums by people who love their Kromes, some of whom also own the other brands.  Maybe you just got a bad one.  I am surprised you didn't get a response from Badger support though.  My experience is that they get right back to you.  I did hear a while back that they were having some difficulty with e-mail, and that may have had something to do with it.

I've seen negative comments about almost every airbrush on the market.  And, that includes H&S, believe it or not.

Don

Personal preference plays a huge role. What works for some doesn't for others. Nuff said. 

Don't apologize for my Evolution and certainly agree with Doog about preference. However, the economics of the picture are interesting really. Santa brought me a new needle/nozzle for the Evo: it cost $50. With the new parts, the Evo's performance is up considerably.  I don't know what parts run on a Badger, just I was on Chicago's site and noticed that nozzles and needles for a Paasche VLS (my first brush and I still use it for Future etc) cost under $5. That's a big difference. It means that, for instance, I put a new needle into a Paasche VLS every month for the price of one every Christmas for the Evo. As I'm finding out, new needles really make a difference. I was just watching Phil Foley compare his Evo with Iwata's new top dog and the Iwata (.35 tip) sprayed a cleaner line than the Evo (.2) because it was new.

Eric

EBergerud

Don't apologize for my Evolution and certainly agree with Doog about preference. However, the economics of the picture are interesting really. Santa brought me a new needle/nozzle for the Evo: it cost $50. With the new parts, the Evo's performance is up considerably.  I don't know what parts run on a Badger, just I was on Chicago's site and noticed that nozzles and needles for a Paasche VLS (my first brush and I still use it for Future etc) cost under $5. That's a big difference. It means that, for instance, I put a new needle into a Paasche VLS every month for the price of one every Christmas for the Evo. As I'm finding out, new needles really make a difference. I was just watching Phil Foley compare his Evo with Iwata's new top dog and the Iwata (.35 tip) sprayed a cleaner line than the Evo (.2) because it was new.

Eric

Eric, I read your post on the new H&S nozzle/needle set with intense interest. It brings out the engineer's instinct from me. I have not used any of my airbrushes enough to notice the difference in wear first hand. I also wonder which Iwata is Phil Foley uses.

According to Milairjunkie, the H&S nozzle is made of Nickel Silver (60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc), which is indeed a relative soft material compared to stainless steel.

According to Prof. Zsolt, who did a scanning electron microscopy and Energy Dispersive X-ray Spectroscopy (SEM/EDS) analysis of the Iwata nozzle and determined that it was made of Nickel based Superalloy. The needle was made of ordinary AISI 304 stainless steel. They are probably a better match in hardness. Even though Iwata uses ordinary 304 steel for their needle, they must have a special heat treat process for the steel because it is more springy and more resistent to accidental bending damage than most other brand of needles.

It is noticed that the Iwata CS nozzle (0.35 mm) is twice as expensive as the BCS (0.5 mm) nozzle and looks different.

     CS vs. BCS nozzle           

montague

It sounds that I must have hit a nerve with your "Buy American" mentality on this which is not mature to begin with. Thats why there is foreign competition.

My remark was not necessarily a "buy American" mentality, although there is some truth to that.

I was commenting on how the Iwata Eclipse is a copy of an American airbrush, particularly the Thayer & Chandler Vega and Omni series.

Foley was comparing a standard HS Evolution with an Iwata Eclipse (gravity fed, small cup, .35 needle.) The issues he claimed led him to stray from Iwata eight years ago have all been fixed. (Guess the old one required tools to do some pretty simple stuff. Can't confirm that.) He likes them both. Three points:

1. I have an HS Evolution Silverline. It has a knob at the end of the handle that limits airflow. The standard Evo and the Eclipse are described by Chicago as having "preset" handles. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I don't think they do what my Silverline does. The Paasche Talon is described the same way but it has a knob at the end that allows you to set the travel on the trigger and greatly aiding the modeler if you want to spray small volumes of paint. I don't have enough experience with the various brands to pontificate. I can say that I mess with my air volume frequently. And I don't know what it means if one brand touts their ability to handle any solvent (Badger does) and another brand doesn't (the Evo doesn't; the Silverline and Eclipse do) but I'd sure want to know.

2. The old nozzle on my Evo had grown considerably larger after a year and a half of use, and the needle was showing definite wear. If other brushes are superior in that regard it's a real point in their favor. I can't imagine a small nozzle brush not needing pretty frequent cleaning and I'd guess it was cleaning that degraded the nozzle. I'm not going to knock the engineering on the Evo, but it may be that I'm using the airbrush equivalent of an Audi. But it's cheaper.

3. Phil Foley's site "Foley Models" is a terrific place. It's worth a visit as it stands, but you have to pay about $5 a month for full access. I think the value added is considerable. You don't get a magazine, but Foley has I'd guess about 30 video builds (grows by one every month) that subscribers can watch. These are simply Foley building a model (heavy aviation orientation). They also last 3 hours a shot, although are very well made and allow you to move about in the various chapters easily. Along with the site's video tutorials and extensive photo-build sections, I'd take what is available there over FSM magazine in a second. (Not knocking FSM, I just wonder how much more I can learn from a magazine. The board is much more valuable to me as a modeler.) Our board is bigger, but the board at Foley's is very helpful. It's about half Brit and they're a congenial folk: the group moderators also pitch in. Anyway, a very nice site. I wish FSM would look at those video builds. MIG and AK are selling weathering DVDs briskly at $20 a pop and they last 50 minutes. Our videos are very nice - and very meager: you're better off on YouTube.

Eric

Eric,

Among the airbrushes in discussion, the Evolution Silverline and the Badger Krome both have preset handle as standard. H&S calls the preset handle "adjustable paint control". The preset handle for the Iwata HP-CS comes as an $35 option. But you get get it from BearAir for $18.

I was a subscriber to the Promodeller web site for about 2 years and enjoy many of the videos that you mentioned. I let the subscription dropped when Phil changed his policy on access and increased the fee. $60 a year is a lot for a magazine subscription. I decided to keep only FSM and AirFix Model World. I still like the stash of paper that I can read anytime, anywhere. (Yes, I know about the Ipad. No, I am not going to get one.) Besides, there are too many free sites in the US and videos on the YouTube.

I agree with everyone that the choice of airbrush is very personal and human brain are amazingly adaptive to the balance and trigger action. But there are some element that are also objective. For example, the smoothness and precision of the trigger is one. The durability of the needle is another. In term of basic performance, I personally believe that CS, Evolution and Krome are very similar. And the Patriot is far behind and not belongs to this group. It is just personal opinion to the airbrushes that I have.

EBergerud

1. I have an HS Evolution Silverline. It has a knob at the end of the handle that limits airflow. The standard Evo and the Eclipse are described by Chicago as having "preset" handles. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I don't think they do what my Silverline does. The Paasche Talon is described the same way but it has a knob at the end that allows you to set the travel on the trigger and greatly aiding the modeler if you want to spray small volumes of paint. I don't have enough experience with the various brands to pontificate. I can say that I mess with my air volume frequently. And I don't know what it means if one brand touts their ability to handle any solvent (Badger does) and another brand doesn't (the Evo doesn't; the Silverline and Eclipse do) but I'd sure want to know.

The Evo Silverline & the Eclipse (as an option) both have needle travel limiters fitted to their rear bodies / handles, these don't alter airflow in any way, they limit needle travel & hence paint flow. I'm not familiar with the Talon, but I imagine it's the same.

Suitability for solvent based paint is down to the needle seal material, PTFE / Teflon being solvent resistant. All current H&S products feature Teflon needle & nozzle seals, although only the CRPlus variants feature a Teflon paint cup seal. The Evolution Silverline is touted as being more suited to solvent based paints in comparison to the standard Evolution as the standard models nitrile / viton "grip rings" are deleted on the Silverline.

I should have put the point more clearly. It's true that the valves on an airbrush don't limit the airflow - you do that with the compressor. Limiting the travel of the trigger, however, has an effect that is very similar for real world applications. Call it "disaster insurance." If I want a real thin and easy flow my finger is willing to give up its freedom to open the throttle. No doubt better modelers would not need this feature, but I'd guess a lot of people would like it.

Different strokes about mags. I do like getting my eye candy but pick up very little from any given issue. Right now I'm in the process of going through my old issues and removing the articles that I can use (usually something that pertains specifically to a project) and jettisoning the flotsam. I'll make a PDF out of the survivors and keep the originals in a folder. But not even the best of the articles are as helpful as a proper video build. I don't regret sending Mig Jimenez or Adam Wilder $20 a pop to see them in action. And probably the best airplane I ever made was an Eduard FW-190: one of the models that Phil Foley made. I just kind of followed the bouncing ball (except for closing the plane and giving it an entirely different paint job. Might try it with a Dragon PzIV which Foley also built: very interesting because he brings a plane makers technique to armor whereas I bring armor techniques to ships and planes. Not as well of course.) As it stands Foley's site remains well worth it to me. I just wish FSM would catch on even at a more limited scale on the video issue. I also wish that FSM subscribers had open access to all articles from past issues - as it stands their policy on access, when combined with a pretty lame search engine, cripples the value of the magazine. How many times have thought "I read something about that in FSM" and then be cluess concerning where? That would never happen on Foley's site. Glad I can afford them both: combined they're still less than one 32 scale Tamiya Mustang and not that much more than a Tasca Sherman.

Eric