Harder and Steenbeck Evolution 2 in 1 Airbrush.

It's oly the Custom Microns that has non solvent resistant seals today. My bet is that the text is a leftover from the days when almost all airbrushes used rubber o-rings.

Also, it might be that they recommend against "general solvents", since a lot of people reason "the stronger the better". I've had customers that frequently used MEK for thinning paint and cleaning their airbrushes....

The cleaning & maintenance articles on the Iwata Medea resources page ( http://www.iwata-medea.com/index.php/resources ) seem to advise solvent based cleaners for solvent based paints?

The only reason I can think for that advice is that not all of their models have solvent resistant needle seals fitted & even some that do have solvent resistant needle seals, possibly don't have solvent resistant seals throughout.

The Evolution Silverline has solvent resistant needle, nozzle & upper air valve seals, but the paint cup seal, air cap seal & lower air valve seals are nitrile rubber or viton, these aren't solvent resistant - but aren't directly in the paint path.

I was just checking the Iwata site and read their FAQ about airbrush cleaning. They pumped Medea cleaner: natch, because they make it. They said you could use lacquer thinner on a q-tip to clean dried paint. They also said, "never spray solvent through the airbrush." That was for all their airbrushes, not just the Neo or something humble. I don't  know exactly what they mean: would this mean you shouldn't use lacquer thinner and lacquer paints? My Evo specifically states that it has solvent resistant teflon fittings to make it safe to use for this. I've been blowing lacquer thinner through it for over a year with no problem. Anyone know what Iwata is talking about?

Eric

The points that Stymye and Eric made all showed that the choice of an airbrush is somewhat subjective and very personal.

As far as airbrush is concerned, I consider myself an immediate beginner with limited skill. I perfer the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS much over the simpler Paasche H (require taking the whole thing apart to clean) and Badger Patriot (release paint too quick). I found the linear action of the Iwata trigger easier to learn from. It allow back flushing for easy color change/cleaning. But the Iwata does have tip dry problem that requires more paint thinning, particularly with acrylic. The simpler airbrushes are more forgiving in this regard.

I also have a H&S Evo and a Badger Krome, plus several knock-offs for reference. For students with very tight budget limit, I would still favor the Neo for Iwata over simpler, but similarly priced Passche H or Badger 350.

Spare parts is another important consideration for me. Iwata parts are easily accessible from local Hobby Lobby and cheapest (because of no shipping) in my situation. Besides, the Iwata nozzle and needle use harder material than most brands and less prone to damage.

I use my trigger limiter a lot especially when doing highly thinned or detail work. I can't speak for other lines, but you pay no premium for it on the HS Evolution - the "Silverline" model has it and costs the same as the standard Evo which doesn't. A Paasche VLS has one and it's not a Mercedes brush.

I think a lot depends upon skill here. There are many modelers, including some real gurus like Gary Edmundson who uses a Paasche H single action, that argue modeling takes very little sophistication in an airbrush. I suppose I don't "need" a .2mm nozzle, but I sure like it for some things. That's why I have a second brush with a .5 ready to go. Considering the cost of kits and supplies, I don't think it at all odd for someone to have two or more brushes at the ready - artists have dozens of paintbrushes because they do different things. I'm sure a professional modeler can get the same results by switching tips on a Paasche H and do just fine. But  I don't think I could. There may also be a matter of painting style. The kind of "modulation" painting popular in armor circles puts a real premium on "low and slow" painting and a brush that's good for that might not be the best thing for putting down a simple coat.

The beginner issue is interesting. I think you could make a very strong case that something like a Paasche H would be just the ticket for someone completely new to the game. (Should remember that external mix models are easier to clean and suffer less from clogging which drives a lot of beginners nuts.) The case for something like an Iwata or HS would have much more to do with "feel" and reliability. I have a Paasche Talon which is a perfectly good airbrush. However, if you clean the needle the trigger often has to be reset when you put it back in. Kind of strange the first time you see it happen. Stuff like that does not happen on a Evolution. I've actually had better luck with the older and theoretically less sophisticated Paasche VLS. A simple Paasche, Badger or Iwata can always serve back-up duties later if you want something more complex.

More important than type of brush is the willingness to learn it correctly. Armor guru Adam Wilder recommends that people spend a few hours with a cheap acrylic and a pad of simple artist papers and dry pictures, lines, shading etc. When building a model you actually spend very few minutes airbrushing. If you "learn by experience" via kit building, you're going to need to build a lot of kits before you hit two hours of airbrushing. Once you know how to airbrush, you're far better able to tell what is needed and what is not from your tools.

Eric

stymye

It's just my 2 cents, that's all 

 I don't think a majority of model builders need that level of control.It's a case of spending more for things that will be seldom used...when a lesser model from the Iwata line for example, will do the same job.

 military models are not the same as a high end super-detailed automotive graphic.

nothing wrong with those options, I just wanted to toss in my opinion that they are not necessity's

some newcomers to airbrushing may get the impression that preset handles and flow controls are necessary and spend more than is really needed

 

Very well said!

It's just my 2 cents, that's all 

 I don't think a majority of model builders need that level of control.It's a case of spending more for things that will be seldom used...when a lesser model from the Iwata line for example, will do the same job.

 military models are not the same as a high end super-detailed automotive graphic.

nothing wrong with those options, I just wanted to toss in my opinion that they are not necessity's

some newcomers to airbrushing may get the impression that preset handles and flow controls are necessary and spend more than is really needed

stymye

I'm not a big fan of the flow limiter adjustments, It's kind of a crutch if you begin relying on it.and it's not worth the extra money to me .. same with the micro flow controls,, I can adjust my regulator for that.

I understand  If someone has issues with finger strength and tension it could be helpful

but for most people it's really an un-necessary expense, when the same airbrush without those doo-dads sprays just the same. 

Which preset handle are you talking about? Badger, H&S or Iwata? How did you use it?

The preset handle comes standard on the higher end model such as Badger Krome, H&S Infinity and Iwata HP-C Plus. For those who needs or wants the better airbrush, it comes with preset. It is not exactly an extra cost options for the high end.

The better airbrushes also allow user to adjust trigger tension. The perset handle is NOT for this purpose. It is sort of like a limiter when spraying fine lines. You don't use it very often in modeling. But it comes in handy if you need it. I suspect artists use it more and that's why the high end has it.

Among the Badger airbrushes, only the SOTAR and Renegade comes with the preset dial. The preset needs a small linear flow angle to work well.

I'm not a big fan of the flow limiter adjustments, It's kind of a crutch if you begin relying on it.and it's not worth the extra money to me .. same with the micro flow controls,, I can adjust my regulator for that.

I understand  If someone has issues with finger strength and tension it could be helpful

but for most people it's really an un-necessary expense, when the same airbrush without those doo-dads sprays just the same.

montague

As to your renegade, I would not expect worlds of difference  between that and the a Krome. Will it be an improvement, yes, but not such a leap as from a Bager 100 to a Krome. If the budget allows you then go ahead. A well made tool is always a benifit. What you have is pretty good too.

There is not a great deal of difference in the results between a Badger 100 and a Krome.

The Badger 100 was designed for illustrators not modelers so it is perfectly capable of any task you may need it for in modeling.

I will let people know what I think, but that is certainly not an expert opinion. I just build models. I don't mind admitting I was wrong and I may have been in puting down Badger and this airbrush, if I have offended anyone, I apologize.

As to your renegade, I would not expect worlds of difference  between that and the a Krome. Will it be an improvement, yes, but not such a leap as from a Bager 100 to a Krome. If the budget allows you then go ahead. A well made tool is always a benifit. What you have is pretty good too.

I will be interested in what you think. I have been on the fence about the Krome. I have the Velocity Renegade already so don't if it would be something I would need.

HI!

No I didn't. I took what I would have bid and ordered a Badger Krome instead. All the positive coments about it are swaying me. When it arrives I willpost my thoughts.

montague

What do you think? Soundsl ike a deal. If found it on ebay here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300642129011&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123

Maybe worth a look?

Hi, Montague, did you get it?

Phil Flory it is. Why not misspell it: I've visited the site five times a week for a year and a half and watch the weekly news report without fail. My wife is a reading specialist and when she's feeling nice she'll say that people that read as fast as I do (or used to) often become terrible spellers. When she's grumpy, I simply become stupid. Probably somewhere in between. (I once misspelled my middle name to a cop - no joke. Caused a sticky moment.)

Hope the thread continues for a little while. I'm doing a pretty good job of convincing myself that I need one more decent airbrush. The top gun in St. Paul is a Master and I don't really like moving the Evolution across country on a regular basis. I have been known to lose things.

Eric

Just to be correct since his site deserves it. His name is Phil Flory. His web address is:

http://www.florymodels.co.uk/

$5.50 ? per month. Money well spent. There is a load of video and it is well made and entertaining. He is an excellent modeler and just a regular guy too.

I should have put the point more clearly. It's true that the valves on an airbrush don't limit the airflow - you do that with the compressor. Limiting the travel of the trigger, however, has an effect that is very similar for real world applications. Call it "disaster insurance." If I want a real thin and easy flow my finger is willing to give up its freedom to open the throttle. No doubt better modelers would not need this feature, but I'd guess a lot of people would like it.

Different strokes about mags. I do like getting my eye candy but pick up very little from any given issue. Right now I'm in the process of going through my old issues and removing the articles that I can use (usually something that pertains specifically to a project) and jettisoning the flotsam. I'll make a PDF out of the survivors and keep the originals in a folder. But not even the best of the articles are as helpful as a proper video build. I don't regret sending Mig Jimenez or Adam Wilder $20 a pop to see them in action. And probably the best airplane I ever made was an Eduard FW-190: one of the models that Phil Foley made. I just kind of followed the bouncing ball (except for closing the plane and giving it an entirely different paint job. Might try it with a Dragon PzIV which Foley also built: very interesting because he brings a plane makers technique to armor whereas I bring armor techniques to ships and planes. Not as well of course.) As it stands Foley's site remains well worth it to me. I just wish FSM would catch on even at a more limited scale on the video issue. I also wish that FSM subscribers had open access to all articles from past issues - as it stands their policy on access, when combined with a pretty lame search engine, cripples the value of the magazine. How many times have thought "I read something about that in FSM" and then be cluess concerning where? That would never happen on Foley's site. Glad I can afford them both: combined they're still less than one 32 scale Tamiya Mustang and not that much more than a Tasca Sherman.

Eric

EBergerud

1. I have an HS Evolution Silverline. It has a knob at the end of the handle that limits airflow. The standard Evo and the Eclipse are described by Chicago as having "preset" handles. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I don't think they do what my Silverline does. The Paasche Talon is described the same way but it has a knob at the end that allows you to set the travel on the trigger and greatly aiding the modeler if you want to spray small volumes of paint. I don't have enough experience with the various brands to pontificate. I can say that I mess with my air volume frequently. And I don't know what it means if one brand touts their ability to handle any solvent (Badger does) and another brand doesn't (the Evo doesn't; the Silverline and Eclipse do) but I'd sure want to know.

The Evo Silverline & the Eclipse (as an option) both have needle travel limiters fitted to their rear bodies / handles, these don't alter airflow in any way, they limit needle travel & hence paint flow. I'm not familiar with the Talon, but I imagine it's the same.

Suitability for solvent based paint is down to the needle seal material, PTFE / Teflon being solvent resistant. All current H&S products feature Teflon needle & nozzle seals, although only the CRPlus variants feature a Teflon paint cup seal. The Evolution Silverline is touted as being more suited to solvent based paints in comparison to the standard Evolution as the standard models nitrile / viton "grip rings" are deleted on the Silverline.

Eric,

Among the airbrushes in discussion, the Evolution Silverline and the Badger Krome both have preset handle as standard. H&S calls the preset handle "adjustable paint control". The preset handle for the Iwata HP-CS comes as an $35 option. But you get get it from BearAir for $18.

I was a subscriber to the Promodeller web site for about 2 years and enjoy many of the videos that you mentioned. I let the subscription dropped when Phil changed his policy on access and increased the fee. $60 a year is a lot for a magazine subscription. I decided to keep only FSM and AirFix Model World. I still like the stash of paper that I can read anytime, anywhere. (Yes, I know about the Ipad. No, I am not going to get one.) Besides, there are too many free sites in the US and videos on the YouTube.

I agree with everyone that the choice of airbrush is very personal and human brain are amazingly adaptive to the balance and trigger action. But there are some element that are also objective. For example, the smoothness and precision of the trigger is one. The durability of the needle is another. In term of basic performance, I personally believe that CS, Evolution and Krome are very similar. And the Patriot is far behind and not belongs to this group. It is just personal opinion to the airbrushes that I have.

Foley was comparing a standard HS Evolution with an Iwata Eclipse (gravity fed, small cup, .35 needle.) The issues he claimed led him to stray from Iwata eight years ago have all been fixed. (Guess the old one required tools to do some pretty simple stuff. Can't confirm that.) He likes them both. Three points:

1. I have an HS Evolution Silverline. It has a knob at the end of the handle that limits airflow. The standard Evo and the Eclipse are described by Chicago as having "preset" handles. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I don't think they do what my Silverline does. The Paasche Talon is described the same way but it has a knob at the end that allows you to set the travel on the trigger and greatly aiding the modeler if you want to spray small volumes of paint. I don't have enough experience with the various brands to pontificate. I can say that I mess with my air volume frequently. And I don't know what it means if one brand touts their ability to handle any solvent (Badger does) and another brand doesn't (the Evo doesn't; the Silverline and Eclipse do) but I'd sure want to know.

2. The old nozzle on my Evo had grown considerably larger after a year and a half of use, and the needle was showing definite wear. If other brushes are superior in that regard it's a real point in their favor. I can't imagine a small nozzle brush not needing pretty frequent cleaning and I'd guess it was cleaning that degraded the nozzle. I'm not going to knock the engineering on the Evo, but it may be that I'm using the airbrush equivalent of an Audi. But it's cheaper.

3. Phil Foley's site "Foley Models" is a terrific place. It's worth a visit as it stands, but you have to pay about $5 a month for full access. I think the value added is considerable. You don't get a magazine, but Foley has I'd guess about 30 video builds (grows by one every month) that subscribers can watch. These are simply Foley building a model (heavy aviation orientation). They also last 3 hours a shot, although are very well made and allow you to move about in the various chapters easily. Along with the site's video tutorials and extensive photo-build sections, I'd take what is available there over FSM magazine in a second. (Not knocking FSM, I just wonder how much more I can learn from a magazine. The board is much more valuable to me as a modeler.) Our board is bigger, but the board at Foley's is very helpful. It's about half Brit and they're a congenial folk: the group moderators also pitch in. Anyway, a very nice site. I wish FSM would look at those video builds. MIG and AK are selling weathering DVDs briskly at $20 a pop and they last 50 minutes. Our videos are very nice - and very meager: you're better off on YouTube.

Eric

montague

It sounds that I must have hit a nerve with your "Buy American" mentality on this which is not mature to begin with. Thats why there is foreign competition.

My remark was not necessarily a "buy American" mentality, although there is some truth to that.

I was commenting on how the Iwata Eclipse is a copy of an American airbrush, particularly the Thayer & Chandler Vega and Omni series.

EBergerud

Don't apologize for my Evolution and certainly agree with Doog about preference. However, the economics of the picture are interesting really. Santa brought me a new needle/nozzle for the Evo: it cost $50. With the new parts, the Evo's performance is up considerably.  I don't know what parts run on a Badger, just I was on Chicago's site and noticed that nozzles and needles for a Paasche VLS (my first brush and I still use it for Future etc) cost under $5. That's a big difference. It means that, for instance, I put a new needle into a Paasche VLS every month for the price of one every Christmas for the Evo. As I'm finding out, new needles really make a difference. I was just watching Phil Foley compare his Evo with Iwata's new top dog and the Iwata (.35 tip) sprayed a cleaner line than the Evo (.2) because it was new.

Eric

Eric, I read your post on the new H&S nozzle/needle set with intense interest. It brings out the engineer's instinct from me. I have not used any of my airbrushes enough to notice the difference in wear first hand. I also wonder which Iwata is Phil Foley uses.

According to Milairjunkie, the H&S nozzle is made of Nickel Silver (60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc), which is indeed a relative soft material compared to stainless steel.

According to Prof. Zsolt, who did a scanning electron microscopy and Energy Dispersive X-ray Spectroscopy (SEM/EDS) analysis of the Iwata nozzle and determined that it was made of Nickel based Superalloy. The needle was made of ordinary AISI 304 stainless steel. They are probably a better match in hardness. Even though Iwata uses ordinary 304 steel for their needle, they must have a special heat treat process for the steel because it is more springy and more resistent to accidental bending damage than most other brand of needles.

It is noticed that the Iwata CS nozzle (0.35 mm) is twice as expensive as the BCS (0.5 mm) nozzle and looks different.

     CS vs. BCS nozzle           

Don't apologize for my Evolution and certainly agree with Doog about preference. However, the economics of the picture are interesting really. Santa brought me a new needle/nozzle for the Evo: it cost $50. With the new parts, the Evo's performance is up considerably.  I don't know what parts run on a Badger, just I was on Chicago's site and noticed that nozzles and needles for a Paasche VLS (my first brush and I still use it for Future etc) cost under $5. That's a big difference. It means that, for instance, I put a new needle into a Paasche VLS every month for the price of one every Christmas for the Evo. As I'm finding out, new needles really make a difference. I was just watching Phil Foley compare his Evo with Iwata's new top dog and the Iwata (.35 tip) sprayed a cleaner line than the Evo (.2) because it was new.

Eric

Personal preference plays a huge role. What works for some doesn't for others. Nuff said. 

montague

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

I think that might be the key to your disappointment.  An airbrush with a tip as small as the Krome is going to be fussier and more fragile.  That's why I don't recommend it for general use.  But, maybe you are used to tips that small.

I won't argue with your judgement on Badger vs. Iwata, Grex, and H&S, because I've never tried them.  You may be right.  But, I've seen many comments on this and other forums by people who love their Kromes, some of whom also own the other brands.  Maybe you just got a bad one.  I am surprised you didn't get a response from Badger support though.  My experience is that they get right back to you.  I did hear a while back that they were having some difficulty with e-mail, and that may have had something to do with it.

I've seen negative comments about almost every airbrush on the market.  And, that includes H&S, believe it or not.

Don

You can say what you want about it. I know what I feel on the matter and that is not wrong, merely different than you, which to YOU is wrong I suppose It is a fact that Ken was non responsive on this matter and that is the truth. It sounds that I must have hit a nerve with your "Buy American" mentality on this which is not mature to begin with. Thats why there is foreign competition., sometimes they are just better as this case shows.  Buy all the badger stuff you want, there is no stopping you but to put in the class of the Iwata's and H&S is not very well thought through. I will not keep responding to  Badger fans on this. I wanted an opinion on the Harder and Stennbeck that is up on ebay. I know that it superior to ANY badger, that was not the question. I wanted an opinion on the price.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300642129011?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

montague

Yes I have in fact tried a Krome. I got one from mid tenn hobbies and tried it at home with several paints, thinner ratios, pressures and the like. For a Badger product it is nice, but compared to an Iwata HP-CS or Harder and Steenbeck or Grex, it is sub standard. I would put it in league wirh a Paasche Talon and that is not a good thing for a flagship airbrush!

After test driving it I found the movement was a more than a  little rough, still more overspray than with the above mentioned brands, flimsy needle (should have been hardend like an Iwata for that money), far too sensitive with thinning ratios and pressure to be an effective modeling airbrush. Just too finicky.  I contacted Badger, trying to get a response from Ken in fact, and was left in the cold for answers and support.

Based on all those factors I decided that there are better airbrushes than a Krome in design, manufacture, ease of use, cleaning and performance. Sorry to pop anyones bubble but you asked for a reply. I think any Iwata Eclipse or higher range, H&S Evolution and over and most better Grex Will be a better airbrush in build, versitility and performance without question. Don't buy hype, buy quality.

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

Well you are entitled to your opinion even if it's wrong.

I have been airbrushing for 20 years and own 15 different Badgers and have owned other airbrushes as well including an HP-CS which was nice but not as good as the Krome, Renegade or Sotar 2020 in any way. In fact the trigger stuck a lot. Typical for a Japanese copy of an American airbrush.

In the same league as the Paasche Talon? Haha. Thanks for the laugh.

No response from Ken huh? I find that very hard to believe as he is a friend of mine and he would bend over backwards to make anything right with his products. He is very busy at times and takes a long time to answer the hundreds of emails he gets.

Yes I have in fact tried a Krome. I got one from mid tenn hobbies and tried it at home with several paints, thinner ratios, pressures and the like. For a Badger product it is nice, but compared to an Iwata HP-CS or Harder and Steenbeck or Grex, it is sub standard. I would put it in league wirh a Paasche Talon and that is not a good thing for a flagship airbrush!

After test driving it I found the movement was a more than a  little rough, still more overspray than with the above mentioned brands, flimsy needle (should have been hardend like an Iwata for that money), far too sensitive with thinning ratios and pressure to be an effective modeling airbrush. Just too finicky.  I contacted Badger, trying to get a response from Ken in fact, and was left in the cold for answers and support.

Based on all those factors I decided that there are better airbrushes than a Krome in design, manufacture, ease of use, cleaning and performance. Sorry to pop anyones bubble but you asked for a reply. I think any Iwata Eclipse or higher range, H&S Evolution and over and most better Grex Will be a better airbrush in build, versitility and performance without question. Don't buy hype, buy quality.

Putting as sensitive an airbush as the Krome on your workbech will dissapoint over time. It's not bad, It's just not that good either.

montague

I just don't like it.

Have you held one or tried it?

It blows away the Iwata HP-CS I had, so does the Patriot 105 in my opinion.