Badger Krome vs Iwata HP-CS

Iwata ship their airbrushes with good needles, as do most of the japanese brands. I'm not sure if they make their own, or buy them from some general needle supplier. The quality of the other brands I've tried is very similar. Even on the cheaper models. In my opinion this is one of the factors that still set them apart from the continously better chinese and taiwanese brands. And I would even go so far as to say that older needles often are better than the newer ones. I have a couple of old Iwata HP-C's, a couple of really old Richs and a bunch of old Olymposes, and all of them have nicely polished sharp needles. A couple of them are 20 years old or more.  

denstore

But why? They could just let it protrude a bit? When doing a bit of calculation in my head, a 6 degree needle would protrude about 4,7mm from a 0.5mm nozzle, which might be a bit long, but only slightly over 3mm on a 0.33mm nozzle. I can see the point of having double taper on large nozzle setups, but not on anything less than 0.5mm.

A long, sharp, single taper needle can get damaged easier. Chopping of the slender tip by using a double taper is mostly a cost saving measure to the manufacturer. The compromise is a less precise spray pattern. It is less a concern with larger nozzle size.

I found that Iwata user are usually less concerned about the needle damage because the needle is more springy, thus less prone to damage or bending. Some knock-off needles are sharp with a single taper. But it is no favor to the user because it does not keep the shape very well. 

I have 2 Powercat and one Neo for Iwata knock-off. So I know their needle quality first hand.

My thought was that if the Rage needle has the same angle taper in the first taper section as the Krome, you should be able to use a Krome needle with 0.33mm nozzle.

Since you have both, you could try it, if it would be of interest to you.

I'm always looking for new combinations to adapt my airbrushes to my own needs. "Problem" is that most high end airbrushes already are tuned to what the manufacturer consider be the best setting. But I believe that they sometimes don´t want to compete with their own products by making it too easy to adapt to other specifications. The Iwata Revultions are a good example. When they first arrived at the scene, Iwata said that the CR wouldn't convert to 0.3mm. People played around with it, and came to the conclusion that the 0.3mm needle and nozzle setup for the BR would fit.

Today, there are "conversion kits" available as spare parts for doing this. And considering that the same kind of conversion can be made on the BR, but to both 0.2mm and 0.5mm, my guess is that they all use needles honed with the same angle, and because of that fit with either 0.2, 0.3 or 0.5mm nozzles. So why isn't Iwata having this in their information? Probably because they rather sell one of each of these airbrushes, or maybe even more important, want people that are looking for better detailing capabilities to buy the HP-B instead of buying a 0.2mm setup for their CR.

On the other hand, just by changing the needle and nozzle on a CR to 0.2mm doesn't make it an ideal detailing airbrush. It is too front heavy, too long, and probably has a bit too high angle needle taper to really compete with the HP-B.

Getting this picky is really useless. It will never be discerned by the un aided eye. Buy the Krome, Put in the .22 and know that other then maybe a Harder and Steenbeck infiniy, it is as small as you can go.

denstore

Do the needles for the 0.33 and the 0.21mm have the same angle on the first taper? I.e, the only one on the 0.21 needle.

The Badger Renegade Velocity superfine or Krome use Badger Parts # R-003 needle and the Rage uses Badger Parts # R-004 needle. Based on published data, the linear flow angles are 6.0 and 6.5 degrees respectively. Both are good for general modeling tasks.

denstore

Do the needles for the 0.33 and the 0.21mm have the same angle on the first taper? I.e, the only one on the 0.21 needle.

You can see a picture of them side by side in my Krome review.

Don

Do the needles for the 0.33 and the 0.21mm have the same angle on the first taper? I.e, the only one on the 0.21 needle.

Badger, like most manufacturers, standardizes many parts to keep cost down.  The Rage and Krome trigger mechanisms are basically Thayer & Chandler parts.  They seem to work pretty well.  People who need finer lines can easily convert to the smaller nozzle set.

Don

I have been checking my airbrushes tonight. Non has a double taper, but then, the largest nozzle size I have is 0.4mm. But the three 0.3mm or the 0.4 airbrushes ought to be similar enough to the Rage 0.33 to prove that it isn't any real need of making it double tapered.

Trigger stroke length must depend on construction and physical size as well. Placing the pivoting point further down from the needle ought to make it possible to build for a longer stroke.

I think it's a balance of geometries.  As you noted, an airbrush needle typically extends about 3mm past the nozzle.  If you go much further, you might have air turbulence which could affect spray pattern.  It's also a function of trigger and rocker design.  Usually, full travel of the trigger will move the needle from fully closed to fully open.  Any more would be wasted.  It makes sense to keep the same trigger assembly in an airbrush with different nozzle sizes.  

I think you will find that double tapers are mostly used in larger sizes.  In the Paasche VL, for instance, the medium and large needles have a double taper, but the fine doesn't.  In the Talon, only the large needle is double tapered.

Don

But why? They could just let it protrude a bit? When doing a bit of calculation in my head, a 6 degree needle would protrude about 4,7mm from a 0.5mm nozzle, which might be a bit long, but only slightly over 3mm on a 0.33mm nozzle. I can see the point of having double taper on large nozzle setups, but not on anything less than 0.5mm.

I'm with Don. And your post wasn't showing when I started writing Don. Watching football too. :-)

Tony

The double taper really isn't noticeable on a needle .050 or below. There's more of a taper on the CR needle than there is on the 105 Patriot needle, both are listed as .050mm, but I really don't notice that the taper is there when spraying. Move up to the .070 needle like the Badger 360 or Anthem use and I definitely notice the transition. To me at least, that needle/tip combination is a little touchy when you're trying to spray the finest pattern possible with it. You can with practice but one wrong move and you're at a much wider spray. And for what I use that needle for, that's fine. Whether it's in my 105 or 360, it's for general coverage or primer.

Originally there was a slight double taper on the fine needle in my Sotar that's listed as .021mm. But after bending the tip a couple times, straightening and polishing it isn't there anymore. When it was there you coldn't tell it. Or, I couldn't. Not much difference between the needle and tip in a Sotar and a Renegade.

Let's face it, there's a learning curve with whatever brush you start with. And when/if you get another, you'll have to learn again. It's true that the smallest needles and tips will be more finicky as far as paint mix and pressure but once you learn that, you can do anything. Maybe something in the mid-range would be a better starting point but the Krome comes with an .033 set-up and from what I understand(no, don't have one) it will flow a good bit of paint. With a CS you have a choice that doesn't require any tools to swap. Same with a 105, 155 or 360 Badger. They can all use the same parts and require no tools unless you want to take apart the airvalve. Personally, I get tired of swapping needles and tips and regulators around real quick, that's one reason for multiple brushes.

Tony

WutDaFunk

I kind of agree with Don Wheeler's Krome review though, it's kind of "overkill" for a first airbrush...

I think it depends on the individual.  If they take the time to learn how to take care of it, it's a fine airbrush.  But, any airbrush with a 0.22mm nozzle is going to be more fragile and require more careful thinning.  And, most users don't really need that narrow a spray angle.  The 0.33mm nozzle gives a considerably wider pattern, but it is still very tiny and delicate.

Don

The Iwata Revolution HP-CR has a double taper.   See photo on this page.  So does the Grex Genesis XBi.  The Sotar medium needle has a tiny secondary taper right on the end.

A double taper on a larger needle allows finer trigger control at the beginning of the pull.

Don

I kind of agree with Don Wheeler's Krome review though, it's kind of "overkill" for a first airbrush...

both are awesome. comes down to personal preference.

No, I don't think any Iwata has a double taper. At least not any I've encountered.

keilau

denstore

Didn't know about the double taper. I really can't see the point in having them at all. I've never had any problem with normal tapered needles, not even silly long taper needles as some of the older Rich's.

You will not see double taper on any manufacturer's top of the line models. Some use double taper on the lower priced models.

 

I really didn't think that they would use it on models like the Rage. Isn't the Renegade series supposed to be their new pro series?

denstore

Didn't know about the double taper. I really can't see the point in having them at all. I've never had any problem with normal tapered needles, not even silly long taper needles as some of the older Rich's.

You will not see double taper on any manufacturer's top of the line models. Some use double taper on the lower priced models.

Didn't know about the double taper. I really can't see the point in having them at all. I've never had any problem with normal tapered needles, not even silly long taper needles as some of the older Rich's.

keilau

WutDaFunk

Very good point on the CS nozzle, also, does Hobby Lobby carry the .35 nozzle? Why would the .33 set be a bad idea?

Sorry for the late response, I've been having connection problems.

Hobby Lobby carries both the Iwata Eclipse series 0.35 and 0.5 mm nozzle/needle/crown parts. As expected, the 0.35 mm parts are more expensive. It is a good saving when using their 40% off coupon and avoiding paying for shipping.

denstore

I really can't see what would be bad about the 0.33mm setup? Can you develop that thought?

The Krome 0.21 mm needle has a 6 degrees linear flow angle which is very good for general purpose work, but not as fine as that of the SOTAR 20/20. I do not see what can be gain from changing to the 0.33 mm needle which has a double taper at the end and a larger linear flow angle. See Don Wheeler's review of the Badger Rage for more detail.

I have not used the 0.33 mm setup with the Krome and am not saying that it is bad. I am saying that there is nothing to gain from paying the extra parts to make the change from the 0.21 mm setup. Sorry that I did not make my point clearer in my earlier post.

The Krome does come with a .33 needle set included with the .21 set now,  so switching is free.

WutDaFunk

Very good point on the CS nozzle, also, does Hobby Lobby carry the .35 nozzle? Why would the .33 set be a bad idea?

Sorry for the late response, I've been having connection problems.

Hobby Lobby carries both the Iwata Eclipse series 0.35 and 0.5 mm nozzle/needle/crown parts. As expected, the 0.35 mm parts are more expensive. It is a good saving when using their 40% off coupon and avoiding paying for shipping.

denstore

I really can't see what would be bad about the 0.33mm setup? Can you develop that thought?

The Krome 0.21 mm needle has a 6 degrees linear flow angle which is very good for general purpose work, but not as fine as that of the SOTAR 20/20. I do not see what can be gain from changing to the 0.33 mm needle which has a double taper at the end and a larger linear flow angle. See Don Wheeler's review of the Badger Rage for more detail.

I have not used the 0.33 mm setup with the Krome and am not saying that it is bad. I am saying that there is nothing to gain from paying the extra parts to make the change from the 0.21 mm setup. Sorry that I did not make my point clearer in my earlier post.

I have had both airbrushes. The Iwata is easier to use and clean but will not do the fine work the Krome will. If you are experienecd, the Krome is a far better detail brush. The Iwata is a better all around brush. I Have my Krome with the .22 set up and NEVER change it! I use a Badger Patriot 105 with the fine set up ( about .5 or below) for more general coverage work. You can do all airbrushing with the Krome at .22, It just takes longer. The Iwata is capable for a wide range and master of none. The Krome is a Great detail airbrush at less cost and lower parts cost also.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. lol

I really can't see what would be bad about the 0.33mm setup? Can you develop that thought?

Very good point on the CS nozzle, also, does Hobby Lobby carry the .35 nozzle? Why would the .33 set be a bad idea?

Sorry for the late response, I've been having connection problems.

Despite the small nozzle size, the Krome and the Iwata CS has the same linear flow angle. So there is little difference between the 0.21 mm and 0.35 mm nozzle in term of atomization and overspray. I have not tried the Krome with the 0.33 needle, but it does not sound like a good idea.

I have Hobby Lobby Store locally, therefore, I can get Iwata CS parts cheaper than Krome parts. (No shipping cost.)

Both are wonderful airbrush for modeling. You cannot go wrong with either. I have both, but use the CS more often. It is mostly a familiar factor issue because I got the CS much earlier. The bigger physical size of the CS nozzle is a plus when I have to take it apart for more thorough cleaning occasionally.