Acrylic - Waterbased right ? Well,what's with using Lacquer Thinner and Alcohol in it ?

I think maybe an article for FSM would be nice that describes the makeup of paints and what thinners to use when.  I'm not an expert on paints, so I wouldn't attempt it.  But for someone who is an expert on paints, I think there is an opportunity.

Used to be there were lacquers, enamels, varnishes and shellac.  Everyone know which was which.  So many new types of paints it has become confusing.  There are water-based acrylics, enamel acrylics, and lacquer acrylics :-(

For the most part it used to be the solvent or how the body polymerized that defined it.  Now the types of body and the types of pigment seem to enter the identification of type.

Thank you for the info, stik and oldermodelguy!

Robotism

I have more acryllic paint ranges than I care to remember. I tend to stick to Vallejo as it thins well with water and has good coverage overall. Huge range of colours and you can always find what you want between their ranges. I like the lack of bad smells and I feel safer if I get a whiff of them than I do more toxic paints. I'm a mini painter so being good for hand brushing is my biggest priority with everything else coming second to it. If I was recommending someone a paint range Vallejo would be my recommendation. It's very hard to ruin a kit with them and you can use tap water to thin them keeping costs dirt cheap. They come in every colour of the rainbow, aren't terribly difficult to air brush, are great value for money and they don't react with anything you want to put over the top of them.

While I have my preference I realize every tool has it's place and you shouldn't get into internet slap fights over your preference. There's effects only enamels can do, only oils can do and only acrylics can do. The right tool for the job is the tool that gets the job done in a way you like while not harming the kit. There's no reason you can't mix and match different types of paints and it's only handicapping yourself to do so. If your wallet can take the hit (and who doesn't like buying some new paint?) then I'd highly recommend exploring multiple paint ranges and paint types. Enamel washes from MIG and AK have revived enamels from the stuff no one uses as it's outdated and hard to work with into a common as muck weathering technique (I'm talking in my area of modeling, not saying some older folks don't like enamels and haven't stuck with them as other paint technology improved). Oils are now beginning to get mainstream attention in arenas outside of military modeling. Even though my main focus is science fiction and fantasy I realize each branch of the modeling tree does things slightly differently and you always have more to learn and explore. All to often we end up rumour mongering or drawing battle lines which really aren't needed, it's human nature but as someone who used to swear off enamels as being unhealthy to use I've realized I was being a bit of a plonker and added them into my tool box.

 

That's a good word Robo ! Well I think so anyway.

I have more acryllic paint ranges than I care to remember. I tend to stick to Vallejo as it thins well with water and has good coverage overall. Huge range of colours and you can always find what you want between their ranges. I like the lack of bad smells and I feel safer if I get a whiff of them than I do more toxic paints. I'm a mini painter so being good for hand brushing is my biggest priority with everything else coming second to it. If I was recommending someone a paint range Vallejo would be my recommendation. It's very hard to ruin a kit with them and you can use tap water to thin them keeping costs dirt cheap. They come in every colour of the rainbow, aren't terribly difficult to air brush, are great value for money and they don't react with anything you want to put over the top of them.

While I have my preference I realize every tool has it's place and you shouldn't get into internet slap fights over your preference. There's effects only enamels can do, only oils can do and only acrylics can do. The right tool for the job is the tool that gets the job done in a way you like while not harming the kit. There's no reason you can't mix and match different types of paints and it's only handicapping yourself to do so. If your wallet can take the hit (and who doesn't like buying some new paint?) then I'd highly recommend exploring multiple paint ranges and paint types. Enamel washes from MIG and AK have revived enamels from the stuff no one uses as it's outdated and hard to work with into a common as muck weathering technique (I'm talking in my area of modeling, not saying some older folks don't like enamels and haven't stuck with them as other paint technology improved). Oils are now beginning to get mainstream attention in arenas outside of military modeling. Even though my main focus is science fiction and fantasy I realize each branch of the modeling tree does things slightly differently and you always have more to learn and explore. All to often we end up rumour mongering or drawing battle lines which really aren't needed, it's human nature but as someone who used to swear off enamels as being unhealthy to use I've realized I was being a bit of a plonker and added them into my tool box.

My wife brushes acrylics all the time, she doesn't airbrush which is why I do the clear coat for her. But she uses an artists tray, blop a little paint in one of the wells and thin it a little bit is all. That's how they work. Some like their own thinner but most will cut with just a little water. It's like pin stripers do with One Shot striping enamels too, a little mineral spirits in there makes all the difference in that case. Someone could say enamels brush right from the bottle and not be wrong, they do indeed. But they brush even better cut a little bit.

When in Rome do as the Romans do !

Oh-Ho !

       I wondered if I was the only one. I have at least twenty bottles in Railroad colors and Aircraft colors for the odd Rail or Air project requiring these. Otherwise, like you said, Under lock and key in a cool dark place. It still works well after all these years even as old as it is. Some shelf life that. I do keep it well mixed though .

       The thing that gets me though " G " is the lack of brushability of most of the new acrylic paints straight out of the bottle. Now there are some folks,  that Cannot in reality airbrush. Their living conditions do not allow for this . When I was in a Re-Hab facility after my heart surgery I couldn't airbrush, But I could go to the rec. room and brush-paint a project.

    Because two ribs snapped along with the large line on my frontispiece I had to do six weeks of therapy. I sure couldn't build or detail at this time when I could get out of my room. Enamels weren't allowed because they were flammable and so there you go.

     Now as far as using IPA in paint,wouldn't that give it a weird smell? That ( India Pale Ale) belongs in the tummy, Not in paint, right ?

Ted4321

Does 70% "IPA" cut the mustard? I got a whole bottle and it seems the tamiya acrylic thinner is sold out everywhere. 

Dang, I'm thirsty all the sudden. 

T e d

 

It will probably work, your gloss finishes might have a little haze in them (most likely). That said 91% is cheap at your local drug store or cheaper yet at Wally World. But I'd shoot a little with that 70% in it and see if you like it.

stikpusher

 

If your own concoction works, you’re doing great. What is one of Murphy’s Laws of Combat? If it’s stupid and it works, it ain’t stupid. 

So what is your own thinner blend? That is, if you’re willing to share... 

I actually made it up for use in craft paints, it works in three or four brands of that ( keep it away from DecoArt though, the alcohol gels DecoArt). So I decided to try it in MM and it seems to go down quite well. 60% distilled water, 40% 91 ipa, and for every 3oz of this, 8drops of retarder of which I use Liquitex retarder because that's what I have on hand for shooting my wifes ceramics. The retarder is subject to your climate, in the winter here the air is dry and I up the retarder to 10 drops. Spring and fall is cool and damp, 8 will work but 6  might be better. The retarder pretty much stops tip dry and it slows initial dry or so called dry to the touch a little bit. I cook my paint jobs anyway so can't comment on long term dry time changes, pretty much an hour in the cooker and you can do what you want with it from there. If you have too much retarder for the conditions shot in, a hair dryer cures that. Too little and you might get a little tip dry.

oldermodelguy

I've not had a problem shooting MM acryl with my own thinner blend. Especially the flats. Maybe I'm just lucky.

 

If your own concoction works, you’re doing great. What is one of Murphy’s Laws of Combat? If it’s stupid and it works, it ain’t stupid. 

So what is your own thinner blend? That is, if you’re willing to share... 

I've not had a problem shooting MM acryl with my own thinner blend. Especially the flats. Maybe I'm just lucky.

I haven’t airbrushed Vallejo, so I can’t say anything from personal experience about thinning that brand. As far as Model Master acrylics go, I have only used their thinner with their paint. At least that can be had at Hobby Lobby with the 40% off coupon, so it’s not too costly. And the Model Master acrylic airbrush cleaner is excellent. It removes both enamel and acrylic paint off pretty much any surface, no longer how long that it has been on there. I have yet to come across a satisfactory inexpensive or generic thinner for Model Master acrylics. 

stikpusher

 

 

John 3:16 KJV

So, acrylic paints... Is water or alcohol the correct thinner/airbrush cleaner; or do both work? If the latter, which works better? I tend to be an enamel person myself... :)

 

 

 

 

It depends upon the brand. Some acrylics thin well with isopropyl, others turn into a gummy blob when mixed. Experiment in a safe container/cup before you try it in your airbrush. There is no one size fits all thinner with acrylics. Many work poorly with water as a thinner. They will spray, but have an extended drying time, will run, bubble, pool, etc. Water is a poor cleaner for acrylics. But winded or other ammonia based cleaners work great as an airbrush cleaner for acrylics. 

Enamels on the other hand are pretty consistent. They all thin with enamel paint thinner. 

I work with both.

 

 

Thanks, Stik! Do you (or does anybody) know what works best for thinning Testors/Model Master Acrylic paints (and for cleaning the airbrush after using them, too)? How about thinners for Vallejo Acrylics? I know there are acrylic thinners including a Testors one; but you can’t just buy a gallon of that like you can with mineral spirits for the enamels...(or can you?). Either way, is there a cheap alternative that works well? 

GMorrison

 

I personally dislike Tamiya paint.

 

What don't you like about Tamiya paints if you don't mind my asking ?

To me there are other paints that I believe get the job done with a thinner film thickness.  But as far as ease of use Tamiya is pretty user friendly imo. I'm not a full convert lol !

stikpusher

I have a several years old can of Kleen Strip purchased at the local Ace Hardware that works just fine. But I pretty much use it for three things: 1, cleaning my airbrush occasionally; 2, thinning for Tamiya paints for airbrushing where I want a more rapid drying time; 3, periodic cleaning of paint brushes when paint build up in the base of the bristles becomes noticeable. 

I like to use generic paint thinner strictly for cleaning my paint brushes after enamel paint use, and for immediate after enamel use painting in my airbrush. 

For airbrushing enamels, I’ve had best results using Testors Universal enamel airbrushing thinner. It seems to give enamels more bite into the plastic over other thinners.

 

Ya the Testors universal enamel thinner is a good blend. I don't worry about bite into plastic though because I tend to prime. As such I thin Testors enamels and their MM enamels with either lacquer thinner or with Mineral spirits. I haven't bought the Testors thinner in decades now but it always was a good product. They have it down at my local HS . Since I'm shooting less and less enamels these days ( and I was an enamel fan too, especially Pactra back in the day) I haven't looked back to that thinner. By the same token since I shoot so little enamel I suppose a new can of the Testors thinner would last me a long time @ almost $9 a pint.

I have a several years old can of Kleen Strip purchased at the local Ace Hardware that works just fine. But I pretty much use it for three things: 1, cleaning my airbrush occasionally; 2, thinning for Tamiya paints for airbrushing where I want a more rapid drying time; 3, periodic cleaning of paint brushes when paint build up in the base of the bristles becomes noticeable. 

I like to use generic paint thinner strictly for cleaning my paint brushes after enamel paint use, and for immediate after enamel use painting in my airbrush. 

For airbrushing enamels, I’ve had best results using Testors Universal enamel airbrushing thinner. It seems to give enamels more bite into the plastic over other thinners.

Don Stauffer

 

Depends on the brand.  I have found more problems with enamel thinner than lacquer thinner.  Some brands are synthetic and have residual particulate matter in it. It  changes shade of the color.  For enamels I only buy the stuff that says either mineral spirits or turpentine.  I have used MEK to thin lacquers, but prefer to stick to lacquer thinner.

 

I recently bought a new can of Klean Strip lacquer thinner, it looks like the old can and the thinner smells the same but I haven't used it yet. I believe though that both that and the synthetic are on some shelves locally. I paid a little more at the hardware store down the street for this can than at HD home improvement store but believe I got the original formular which has worked fine for me all along. I keep the same brand xylene and also mineral spirits on hand. I also have their paint thinner which isn't very good for use in model paints.

oldermodelguy

GM has stated that hardware store lacquer thinner is garbage. I would add that depending on the area or zone you live in, it also could be a new so called green or green friendly formula that has been reported by some modelers to work lousy in model paints of all types.

Depends on the brand.  I have found more problems with enamel thinner than lacquer thinner.  Some brands are synthetic and have residual particulate matter in it. It  changes shade of the color.  For enamels I only buy the stuff that says either mineral spirits or turpentine.  I have used MEK to thin lacquers, but prefer to stick to lacquer thinner.

GM has stated that hardware store lacquer thinner is garbage. I would add that depending on the area or zone you live in, it also could be a new so called green or green friendly formula that has been reported by some modelers to work lousy in model paints of all types. If you are lucky, that is not the case in your area and you just have the regular garbage. But Tamiya paint happens to like that garbage, sprays very well with it and the garbage costs a fraction of Tamiya's own possibly ultra superb lacquer thinner or possibly repackaged garbage.. We don't know. Now all kidding aside, we know there are better lacquer thinners out there but if it works it works.

When I shoot lacquer I mix some xylene in with the hardware store lacquer thinner, this helps flow and aids gloss retention. It just slows the dry a little, you get less dry coating and can back the ab up a little bit.

Incidentally, on the package label someplace ( tiny print) of Klean Strip lacquer thinner it states that it's a medium dry thinner. I used Dupont medium dry thinner in 1/1 painting decades ago. You will never get a fast dry thinner to go on wet enough, especially in warm dry climates and probably still want to slow the medium dry down a little bit when shooting lacquers. Just fwiw.

GMorrison

Modern "acrylics" are polymer based and while (some) are able to be thinned with water, it's not a given.

By definition, acrylic refers specifically to the type of polymer that forms the film of the paint. It in no way relates to the thinner/reducer that the particular paint uses. This may be (largely) water, alcohol or some other chemical cocktail specific to a particular brand.

Tamiya and GSI Creos Aqueous (aka Gunze) can be thinned to an extent with water, but also can be thinned using their proprietary thinners, which are essentially a water/alcohol blend, IPA or denatured alcohol, either of their proprietary lacquer thinners or a generic lacquer thinner.

GSI Creos also has the "Mr Color" range, described as  "solvent based acrylic" which can't be thinned with water or alcohol, instead requiring a lacquer thinner (either their own, Tamiya's or a generic LT) Put water or alcohol in this paint and you're going to have a bad day.

Words of wisdom, Carlos. Words of wisdom.

Acrylic paints sold for scale modeling are NOT water based. Back in the day Polly Scale did work as thinned with water, but that's no longer available.

Modern "acrylics" are polymer based and while (some) are able to be thinned with water, it's not a given.

I personally dislike Tamiya paint.

The future seems to be air-brush ready acrylic paints like AK or Valleo Air.

Yes, enamel paints seem to be the most reliable for solving hardness, resistance to lift-up by masking.

Most Lacquer Thinner sold is in no way a thinner; it's a solvent. And the usual stuff sold at "Ace" et al is garbage,

Tanker- I have a collection of Polly paints that I use like a fine wine. Engine Black, Steam Power Black, Concrete. Under lock and key.

John 3:16 KJV

So, acrylic paints... Is water or alcohol the correct thinner/airbrush cleaner; or do both work? If the latter, which works better? I tend to be an enamel person myself... :)

 

It depends upon the brand. Some acrylics thin well with isopropyl, others turn into a gummy blob when mixed. Experiment in a safe container/cup before you try it in your airbrush. There is no one size fits all thinner with acrylics. Many work poorly with water as a thinner. They will spray, but have an extended drying time, will run, bubble, pool, etc. Water is a poor cleaner for acrylics. But winded or other ammonia based cleaners work great as an airbrush cleaner for acrylics. 

Enamels on the other hand are pretty consistent. They all thin with enamel paint thinner. 

I work with both.

Does 70% "IPA" cut the mustard? I got a whole bottle and it seems the tamiya acrylic thinner is sold out everywhere. 

Dang, I'm thirsty all the sudden. 

T e d

Here in Colorado, there are hundreds of craft breweries, and I have enjoyed sampling IPA's from many of them.  There are too many, to find and try them all!  This is a great place for beer afficianados.  Skoal!

Cadet Chuck

Dumb question:  What is IPA?  (I am thinking India Pale Ale, but I know that's not right in this context.)

 

Isopropyl Alcohol. Theoretically it should be IA... but you know how folks on the internet love to create their own shorthand. I’m with you on IPA being India Pale Ale. I don’t think that it would thin paint very well, and I sure would not waste IPA for that tasking if it did. Personally the IPA that I’ve enjoyed the most was brewed by Sam Adams.

But seriously, is it that hard to type up a word? There are too many competing identical acronyms out there.

Cadet Chuck

Dumb question:  What is IPA?  (I am thinking India Pale Ale, but I know that's not right in this context.)

 

Isopropyl alcohol

Just to throw another one into the mix, i use un-diluted car screen wash to thin Tamiya. A UK brand that was recomended by Geoff Coughlin in his Osprey book on Luftwaffe Fighter modelling. Works a treat.

Dumb question:  What is IPA?  (I am thinking India Pale Ale, but I know that's not right in this context.)

For several years after acrylic paints showed up, I stuck with enamel. I heard stories about it at the hobby shop, heard about all of the witches brew thinning methods, and if you let it set up for just a few minutes in the airbrush it was ruined forever, impossible to clean then. Pfffft

A few years back I bought a couple of bottles of Tamiya, just to try it. Almost instantly I came to be comfortable with it, and indeed the airbrush can be easily cleaned after use. I started thinning with X-20A, then Tamiya lacquer thinner, finally with IPA. All work well.

My only MINOR issue with it, is that name brand lacquer thinner does clean the parts up a bit better/faster than IPA. Otherwise, I'm nearly an exclusively acrylic airbrusher now, with only a little use for enamel.

I get really nice finishes, I think superior to enamel, and if I do see a need for a little touch up now and then, it sands and receives the new layer perfectly.

In the end, what really makes the most positive difference for me is the absence of smell. Even with a very positive air flow spray booth, that discharges through a 4 inch hose and wall vent to the outside, enamel paint and thinners had a very noticeable and unpleasant odor.

But we like what we like, for some, acrylic is the "magic elixer," for others it's enamel. For the enamel users, I feel bad that so many of that type are going away. It's not easy to lose products that work for you.

Patrick