So does white have different properties from other "colors" ?

Hmm, I don't have an answer for you but that is interesting to hear about.

Pat

Paints get their colors from tiny particles called pigment.  For any color there may be several chemicals that produce about the same color, but with slightly different shades. If you look at a catalog of artists oil colors, the name of the color is often the name of the chemical, used as an adjective and the generic name for the color, like Titanium white.

So even slightly different colors may be chemically different.  And the same color in different brands may have the pigment ground to different sizes.  The type of paint vehicle- enamel, acrylic, lacquer, polyurethane- also has different chemical and physical properties, so different paints definitely have different properties that affect how easy they are to use.

Well Tamiya has retarder/thinner for lacquer ( they call it lacquer thinner retarder type). They have Lacquer retarder for lacquer. And then acrylic retarder. And that's exactly how much I know about them because I don't use any of them.

And for brushing I'd be more inclined to use Model Master acryl or even Testors enamel. Just sayin.  I do brush their clear red for tail light lenses though, if it needs a little thinner I use my home brew thinner which has Liquitex retarder in it already.

Its been my experience that Tamiya paints in general begin curing very quickly and aren't all that wonderful for brush-painting areas much bigger than knobs and switches in a cockpit.  That is, unless you use a retarder of some kind.  When I have to brush-paint something larger than a knob or switch, I have found that adding a drop or two of Vallejo Airbrush Flow Improver dramatically slows the curing process while brushing.  It also makes it so you can have a longer knob/switch painting session.  Its something you have to experiment with to find what ratios of paint/flow improver work best for you.  I typically use a battery-powered paint stirrer to mix the paint, let a drop or two of paint drip off it into a cup on my little stainless steel paint pallette, and then hit that with a drop or two of the flow improver.  It ends up being a lot more brushable that way, but you have to be careful about using too much, because then the paint doesn't cover well.  Like I said...experimentation is the key.  

The retarder is actually designed to be used to slow the drying of Tamiya acrylics for brush painting. Adding a drop and no more to an airbrush does help with dry tip. Retarder is not a thinner and if you didn't use thinner then that is probably your issue.

I would guess it is not a product of the color, per se. Different "colors" probably have different chemical formulas.

See if you can find any suggestions online.

Bill

Tickmagnet

The retarder is actually designed to be used to slow the drying of Tamiya acrylics for brush painting. Adding a drop and no more to an airbrush does help with dry tip. Retarder is not a thinner and if you didn't use thinner then that is probably your issue.

 

ok, so I mentioned cup and brushing - I was brushing....  to be clear. Best to use retarder AND the thinner for brushing?  I didn't know that. The guys at the shop just told me to add a drop or so and the bottle says no more than 10% of the ratio....  Guess I'll try the thinner too next time

Mrchntmarine

 

   Guess I'll try the thinner too next time

 

 What I didn't mention in my other post is you don't need much thinner to aid in brush painting. You need just enough to help the paint level and flow out. I use my homebrew thinner in the little bit of Tamiya I brush paint and the thinner already has Liquitex retarder in it. My lastest batch also has just a hint ( very very tiny bit) of Dawn dish soap in it as a surface tension breaker.

Just use the retarder for brush painting to slow the curing process.  You don't want to use thinner for brush painting.

Eaglecash867

 You don't want to use thinner for brush painting.

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Why not?

Mrchntmarine

 

 

Eaglecash867

 You don't want to use thinner for brush painting.

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Why not?

 

Because it diminishes coverage and is more likely to attack any paint underneath it.  The retarder I mentioned is a lot more gentle to any paint that might already be on your model.  But, again, I tend to stay away from brush painting anything much bigger than a knob, switch, or handle.  I use liquid mask and airbrush just about everything else.  

Depends on brand, type of paint too. Not using thinner isn't a blanket statement, it might work with some brands and types of paint, really just a few. Others need thinning or they won't cover because they won't flow, you end up pulling it along with the brush and then the coat is too thick anyway. I do quite a bit with craft paints, you take Folk Art white and paint a set of 1/32 or 1/25 scale spark plugs with that they come out looking like triple scoop ice cream cones instead of spark plugs. So ya, you thin it. Testors enamel will go on with a brush and look like the brush tracks, you will know everywhere the brush went, especially in dry weather but a little mineral spirits in there will make the brush strokes disappear, put a little more and you can build your finish over two or three coats and still see details ( great for assemblies like engines and such if you don't want to break out the airbrush for say a red oxide or hunter green block and heads you glued up)...

Retarder slows dry time, it's good to aid in tip dry in air brushes. Some retarders actually are thicker than the paint, this is a brand thing, so it depends on brand.  It's good for extending time on a painters palette to mix colors. Flow aids and thinners are for better flow out of the paint. That's why they make retarder, flow aids and thinners not just retarder. Retarder is also good for slowing or stopping blushing in lacquer paint in humid weather. I'll stop there but plenty more could be stated with references to what each manufacturer recommends be done with retarders, thinners or flow aids.....Just sayin

I'm curious, do you have a lot of experience brush-brushing Tamiya with no problems and then the thing with the white happened, or are you new to brushing it on?

Just to clarify, the statements I have been making about brush painting and the use of thinners/retarders are specific to the Tamiya Acrylic paint the OP was having issues with.  

Greg

I'm curious, do you have a lot of experience brush-brushing Tamiya with no problems and then the thing with the white happened, or are you new to brushing it on?

 

Hi Greg - not sure if you meant me or not....  But i dont have a lot of experience w/ Tamiya as ive only been doing this again for a couple of years.  That being said, I do use Tamiya acrylics to brush, but, as most have said - and my experience - they dont seem to be the best to brush with.  The reason I added the retarder was that the local HS mentioned it to me and said it would help w/ the brushing and not getting dry to fast.  When i added a drop(maybe 2, but i think 1) to a small amount of white on my palette(Much less that the 10% max the bottle states) I was surprised that the paint turned a little stringy and goopy.  That, after all was the reason i added the retarder - Tamiya brand - to help and inprove the flow.  I have also been in the habit of keeping some x20a or ipa on the palette too dip and clean a tad while brusing w/ Tamiya acrylics bc of the goopiness - not realizing i guess that maybe its not a good practice?  Anyway, I guess im just trying to figure out the best practices to be able to brush small areas nicely w/ Tamiya acrlyics.  I have also been trying Vallejo and AKI and like those better to brush with - BUT - I have a toe of Tamiya id like to use too....

Mrchntmarine

Hi Greg - not sure if you meant me or not....

I sure did.

In that case, you have more experience brushing than I do (I tried it once for brushing and that was enough for me).

That said, in my experience with acrylics, white does seem to be one of the thicker colors, but I don't know if that holds true for Tamiya or not. Their acrylics seem to be more uniform in  thickness from one color to another than other acrylics I've used.

And the other thing is I've never used the retarder, but it makes no sense that it would make brushing worse. Sounds like something is off but I have no idea what.

Mrchntmarine

 

 

Greg

I'm curious, do you have a lot of experience brush-brushing Tamiya with no problems and then the thing with the white happened, or are you new to brushing it on?

 

 

 

 

Hi Greg - not sure if you meant me or not....  But i dont have a lot of experience w/ Tamiya as ive only been doing this again for a couple of years.  That being said, I do use Tamiya acrylics to brush, but, as most have said - and my experience - they dont seem to be the best to brush with.  The reason I added the retarder was that the local HS mentioned it to me and said it would help w/ the brushing and not getting dry to fast.  When i added a drop(maybe 2, but i think 1) to a small amount of white on my palette(Much less that the 10% max the bottle states) I was surprised that the paint turned a little stringy and goopy.  That, after all was the reason i added the retarder - Tamiya brand - to help and inprove the flow.  I have also been in the habit of keeping some x20a or ipa on the palette too dip and clean a tad while brusing w/ Tamiya acrylics bc of the goopiness - not realizing i guess that maybe its not a good practice?  Anyway, I guess im just trying to figure out the best practices to be able to brush small areas nicely w/ Tamiya acrlyics.  I have also been trying Vallejo and AKI and like those better to brush with - BUT - I have a toe of Tamiya id like to use too....

 

Maybe I'm completely wrong but it seems to me if you have a small amount of paint on your palette and you drop in 1-2 drops of retarder you just increased your fluid total by about 100% not a max of 10%. When I use a palette I put various components either in the little pocket compartments around the edge and pick a little up with a brush and add it to my mix or I put them on the flat of the palette and kind of scrape a little in at a time. Just sayin

But that said I don't like brushing Tamiya acrylic anyway so I'll be quiet now lol.

so the bottle of tamiya retarder says not to use more that 10% retarder to paint ratio.  I know i said palatte, but its actually a metal retangular tray w/ 6 round shaped bowls and the reason i mentioned the 10% is bc i did not measure exactly the amount of paint other than to say that bc i only used a or 2 drops at most, i know that it was less than the eye balled amount of paint.

Mrchntmarine

so the bottle of tamiya retarder says not to use more that 10% retarder to paint ratio.  I know i said palatte, but its actually a metal retangular tray w/ 6 round shaped bowls and the reason i mentioned the 10% is bc i did not measure exactly the amount of paint other than to say that bc i only used a or 2 drops at most, i know that it was less than the eye balled amount of paint.

 

Ok.

so to switch colors - white to black - but still brusing...  Been doing some small parts in black w/ Tamiya acrylic.  Like its been said here, maybe not the best brand for brushing.  I tried their thinner, alcohol and a home brew.  Still doesnt seem to work like the Vallejo model colors ive been trying.  Had enough of trying to brush the Tamiya - going for something else....   whew. 

Mrchntmarine

so to switch colors - white to black - but still brusing...  Been doing some small parts in black w/ Tamiya acrylic.  Like its been said here, maybe not the best brand for brushing.  I tried their thinner, alcohol and a home brew.  Still doesnt seem to work like the Vallejo model colors ive been trying.  Had enough of trying to brush the Tamiya - going for something else....   whew. 

 

Good idea !

Oh, well no wonder you are frustrated! Didn't realize you are using Vallejo Model Color as your benchmark.

Comparing brush-painting Vallejo Model Color vs Tamiya acrylics., Tamiya will never even come close no matter what you do or mix in with it.

ok, hate to beat this to death , but this is what i was talkng about.  Had a few touch up spots and had to use some more of this Tamiya white acrylic.  This is right after putting some in the cup, literally 10 seconds, and its stringy.....  Straight form the bottle - no additives.  What the heck?

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

That's not right. It shouldn't be that thick or stringly, at least not after 10 seconds.

Having not used Tamiya lately, I just stirred up my pretty old bottle of XF-2 flat white and put 10 drops in a pallet.

Excuse the bad pic, but you can see it looks a lot different than what you have.

Here is after about a minute, paint is drying up and balling on the brush tip already, as expected.....

I don't have any Tamiya retarder, but a touch X20A wetted the paint back up.

My hat's off to Bluenote and others who hand paint this stuff. It does sound like Tamiya's own retarder is likely the way to go if you want to hand brush it.

The other idea comes to mind about your bottle of white, maybe the lid didn't get closed well and it is drying out.

But at any rate, back to original question, should white be this much different in consistency then other Tamiya colors? Now that you show the pic, it should not. I half-expected the white in my test to be a little thicker out of hte bottle just because it is white, it was not.

Off-topic, I'd forgotten how much I love the smell of Tamiya Acrylics.

bluenote

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

 

tks for the feedback.  it was shaken.  so i understand - so i can try one day - paint in 1 well, 1 drop of retarder in another.  you load the brush with paint and then go to the retarder well and swirl the brush to get some retarder and then paint.  Then you would hav to go back and load more paint and then go back to the retarder well and swirl some more to get some more retarder on the brush?  Wouldnt all the retarder be gone after the 1st dipping of the brush?  Your opinion - is it bad practice to keep some thinner in a well to "reactivate" the paint while brushing?  Im curious from someone who used this paint and bc im pretty new at this and trying to figure best practices.  Or is it not good to use the thinner like that?

Greg

That's not right. It shouldn't be that thick or stringly, at least not after 10 seconds.

Having not used Tamiya lately, I just stirred up my pretty old bottle of XF-2 flat white and put 10 drops in a pallet.

Excuse the bad pic, but you can see it looks a lot different than what you have.

Here is after about a minute, paint is drying up and balling on the brush tip already, as expected.....

I don't have any Tamiya retarder, but a touch X20A wetted the paint back up.

My hat's off to Bluenote and others who hand paint this stuff. It does sound like Tamiya's own retarder is likely the way to go if you want to hand brush it.

The other idea comes to mind about your bottle of white, maybe the lid didn't get closed well and it is drying out.

But at any rate, back to original question, should white be this much different in consistency then other Tamiya colors? Now that you show the pic, it should not. I half-expected the white in my test to be a little thicker out of hte bottle just because it is white, it was not.

Off-topic, I'd forgotten how much I love the smell of Tamiya Acrylics.

 

tks greg.  To follow up, just now i stirred the original white i was having the problem with, 23ml bottle X-2 white and put some in the well.  No additives.    After about 30 sec. i just touched the brush to the surface of the paint and could see surface ripples that it was already starting to thicken.  I then put some XF-2 white form a 10ml bottle into a well and waited 20 or so sec.  Did not seem to have the same surface tension of the X2.  I then waited 3 minutes and went back to the X2.  Definately stringy but after a few swirls of the brush it somewhat loosened up again.  Back to the XF2 - still not as thick as the X2...  Oh well, maybe as mentioned a little contaminaon with the bottle - maybe a loose cap sometime....

Mrchntmarine

 

 

bluenote

I use Tamiya acrylics exclusively, and I don't have any issues like you've described with Flat white.  Your picture looks like the paint is very thick, was it thorougly shaken and stirred?  I assume yes, but just thought I'd ask.

I have no issues with brush painting tamiya.  I put 1 drop of their retarder in a palette, then I load my brush with paint and mix with the retarder.  That's it, it brushes perfectly for me after that.  

 

 

 

 

tks for the feedback.  it was shaken.  so i understand - so i can try one day - paint in 1 well, 1 drop of retarder in another.  you load the brush with paint and then go to the retarder well and swirl the brush to get some retarder and then paint.  Then you would hav to go back and load more paint and then go back to the retarder well and swirl some more to get some more retarder on the brush?  Wouldnt all the retarder be gone after the 1st dipping of the brush?  Your opinion - is it bad practice to keep some thinner in a well to "reactivate" the paint while brushing?  Im curious from someone who used this paint and bc im pretty new at this and trying to figure best practices.  Or is it not good to use the thinner like that?

 

I mean this with full respect, but don't overthink it.  I have a little metal pallette, put 1 drop of retarder, then a brushful or 2 of paint and mix thorougly.  After a bit of painting, it will start to run out, so I add another drop and another brushful of paint again and keep painting.  

If I'm brush painting a larger object, then it's still 1, maybe 2 drops of retarder and 4 or 5 brushfuls of paint.  It still works the same to be honest.  

I use a pipette for the retarder.  

I also never overlap wet paint that I've just put down.  one stroke and that's it, move to the next part.

Doing the above, I've never had any issues with brush painting tamiya paint.  

I agree, there might be a difference between gloss and flat. I sort of forgot about that. it might be significant.

Sounds like you're making progress, and glad you have someone who brush-paints Tamiya regularly to help.