Paint issue

Lightning Pilot

 

 

 

What do you use to thin the Createx gloss for airbrushing?

 

I know you didn't ask me but I'll reply meanwhile. I make my own that works very well, it's an approximate spin off of Createx 4011 reducer, going by their data sheet. 4011 is Createx's  preferred thinner across all their lineup now. So if you want to buy the right Createx thinner for the various clears or even colors they offer, then 4011 is the one.

ctruss53

(snip)

Another option for low odor acrylic paints is the Createx line. They are available in craft stores, art supply stores, and Hobby Lobby. They are acrylic and low odor and have a nice gloss clear to put over your paint.

What do you use to thin the Createx gloss for airbrushing?

John3M

Getting back to modeling after many years. I use airbrushing primarily. The question i have is I recently purchased a simple car model 57 Chevrolet Bel Air and cleaned it up to paint the body. I wash parts first. But the problem i seem to have is after putting primer on the car and letting it sit for a week while on a fishing trip. I came home to work on the car. I wanted to paint the car an opaque red over white primer. which I did. now the red paint after sitting for a day or so did not seem to set up as expected. both primer and red were acrylic water base. but the red is not set or hardened. I litely sand the first coat to prepare for the next coat. The paint did not seem quite ready, which i can't figure. It's like it's not hardening. It's not sticky but it's not what i call done. i included pictures of the paint bottles but they wont upload

 

It sounds like you're experiencing issues with the acrylic paint not fully drying or hardening on your model car. There could be a few reasons for this:

1. Humidity and Temperature: Acrylic paints can take longer to dry and cure properly in high humidity or cold temperatures. Make sure you're painting in a well-ventilated area with moderate temperature and humidity levels.

2. Thinning and Mixing: Ensure that you're using the appropriate ratio of paint to thinner. Too much thinner or inconsistent mixing can affect the paint's drying time and curing process.

3. Primer: While you mentioned that you used a white primer, make sure it's compatible with the acrylic paint you're using. Some primers might have a different chemical composition that doesn't interact well with certain acrylic paints.

4. Layer Thickness: Applying too thick a layer of paint can lead to longer drying times. It's generally better to apply multiple thin coats, allowing each coat to dry completely before adding the next.

5. Ventilation: Proper ventilation helps paint dry and cure properly. Make sure you're not painting in an area with poor airflow, which could prolong drying times.

6. Curing Time: Acrylic paints can take a few days to fully cure, depending on the environmental conditions. Even though the paint might not feel sticky, it might not be fully cured yet.

7. Paint Quality: Sometimes, the issue could be with the paint itself. Lower-quality paints might not dry and cure as effectively as higher-quality ones.

8. Surface Preparation: Ensure that the surface was properly cleaned and free of any contaminants before applying the primer and paint. Any residue left on the surface could affect the adhesion and curing of the paint.
   
   I am sharing what I learnt uptil now,

To troubleshoot the issue:

1. Allow more time for the paint to fully cure. Sometimes, acrylic paints can take a few days to reach their maximum hardness.

2. Ensure proper ventilation and moderate temperature and humidity levels.

3. Double-check your mixing ratios for both the paint and primer.

4. Consider using a different primer or acrylic paint brand if the problem persists.

5. Test a small area with a different brand or type of paint to see if you get different results.

ctruss53

Maybe I never noticed a "haze" when using water with Tamiya X series paints because I always clearcoat.

The clearcoat is where I get the protection from.

 

That would make a difference.

Maybe I never noticed a "haze" when using water with Tamiya X series paints because I always clearcoat.

The clearcoat is where I get the protection from.

ctruss53

 

 

the Baron

 

 

ctruss53

...I will get bad remarks about this, but you can thin X and XF Tamiya paints with water. People will disagree, but it works... 

 

 

 

I hope my reply doesn't count as a bad remark, but I must disagree with you on using water to thin Tamiya's acrylics.  Or perhaps to note that that is not consistently so.  I tried using water to thin them, early on, because Tamiya's proprietary thinner is relatively expensive.  But the paint had a tendency to clump, or for one coat to lift off the previous coat.  So I decided to toss aside my natural Dutchiness and buy Tamiya's X-20A thinner.  Immediately I got me consistently good results. 

Of course, anyone can try what he wants.  But it's good to bear that caution in mind.

 

It didn't work for you, thats fine.  I use water and it works totally fine. I mix about 4 parts paint to 3 parts water. And it sprays out fine.

 

My experience with at least the gloss or Tamiya X series paints is it likes as pure an alcohol as you can put in it or Lacquer thinner or their X20-A thinner ( which is comprised of 2-3 different alcohols). Soon as I mixed any blend with water it may spray beautifully but gloss hazes when dry. Could be different climates or who knows what but I personally try to keep water out of Tamiya X. Now for the flats it may not matter but I've only ever thinned the flats with hardware store lacquer thinner. And by the way, the only two thinners suggested by Tamiya at their website is Lacquer Thinner if you want a harder finish or their X20-A for the standard result .

I've thinned Tamiya X with straight denatured alcohol with superb flow and leveling but it took 5 coats to come to a knock out high gloss. It passed the test for me so ever onward I tried it on a model. I don't normally do that but when I did it worked great. I was shooting black fenders for a Model A and all I did three days later is a light buffing with Formula 1 Scratch out... I looked up X20-a data sheets, the closest I had to one of the alcohols that is listed is denatured alcohol, which is slightly less pure than the one they use in X20-A, which as mentioned is comprised of alcohols..

For thinning Tamiya acrylics with hardware store lacquer thinner works best for me,a tough finish that stands up to weathering,and low odor.

the Baron

 

 

ctruss53

...I will get bad remarks about this, but you can thin X and XF Tamiya paints with water. People will disagree, but it works... 

 

 

 

I hope my reply doesn't count as a bad remark, but I must disagree with you on using water to thin Tamiya's acrylics.  Or perhaps to note that that is not consistently so.  I tried using water to thin them, early on, because Tamiya's proprietary thinner is relatively expensive.  But the paint had a tendency to clump, or for one coat to lift off the previous coat.  So I decided to toss aside my natural Dutchiness and buy Tamiya's X-20A thinner.  Immediately I got me consistently good results. 

Of course, anyone can try what he wants.  But it's good to bear that caution in mind.

 

It didn't work for you, thats fine.  I use water and it works totally fine. I mix about 4 parts paint to 3 parts water. And it sprays out fine.

the Baron

I hope my reply doesn't count as a bad remark, but I must disagree with you on using water to thin Tamiya's acrylics.  Or perhaps to note that that is not consistently so.  I tried using water to thin them, early on, because Tamiya's proprietary thinner is relatively expensive.  But the paint had a tendency to clump, or for one coat to lift off the previous coat.  So I decided to toss aside my natural Dutchiness and buy Tamiya's X-20A thinner.  Immediately I got me consistently good results.  Of course, anyone can try what he wants.  But it's good to bear that caution in mind.

I've never had much luck with water in Tamiya acrylics either.  What did end up working for me is 99% isopropyl alcohol, so I buy that stuff by the gallon at our aviation supply store at the airport I'm based at.  Makes a great paint stripper too, and alcohol is about the most harmless, styrene-friendly chemical you can use for that purpose.

ctruss53

...I will get bad remarks about this, but you can thin X and XF Tamiya paints with water. People will disagree, but it works... 

I hope my reply doesn't count as a bad remark, but I must disagree with you on using water to thin Tamiya's acrylics.  Or perhaps to note that that is not consistently so.  I tried using water to thin them, early on, because Tamiya's proprietary thinner is relatively expensive.  But the paint had a tendency to clump, or for one coat to lift off the previous coat.  So I decided to toss aside my natural Dutchiness and buy Tamiya's X-20A thinner.  Immediately I got me consistently good results. 

Of course, anyone can try what he wants.  But it's good to bear that caution in mind.

ctruss53

l

Chad, about Createx ( and you may have seen me post on this before and you can check with Createx instructional videos to confirm). You may or may not realize that it too was designed for fabrics, that was the original intent for the actual Createx opaques and transparent colors. To counter this and so the paint is adapted to hard surface painting they developed Createx 4030 to put in the paints ( called 4030 Intercoat). This converts the Createx paints to a poly acrylic and gets the dried finish away from that tackiness some modelers have complainted about. It may even work well in the OP's paints, as I use it in many acrylic paints besides Createx ( which I do use Createx as well). It's good in many craft paints as well to improve flow and adhesion. Good stuff ! I think the only acrylic I don't use it in is Tamiya.

I'm mixing up Createx red, blue and yellow now ( recently) to make maroon for a 34 Ford pickup build).  But anyway, my point here is that if the OP goes straight up Createx he could be in the same boat he is already in with "rubbery" if no 4030 is used in the blend.

I don't find Tamiya acrylics to be offensive on odor at all, whether thinned with even lacquer thinner. Ya its a bit more odor than pure water borne paints but not very strong and short lived. It may be different in tight confines but it's nothing like lacquer or even enamel.

ctruss53

I kind of skimmed the replies, but I wanted to touch on one term I saw the OP use.

Rubbery

If you are using an acrylic paint that is designed for clothing, or lexan, or any other flexible surface, you are buying a paint that i will cure "rubbery" because it needs to cure flexible in those applications.  I can't say for sure your paint is like this, but when I hear "craft store acrylic" and "cured rubbery" I have a feeling this might be what is going on.

Strip the paint and start over.  For acrylic paints I use LA's Totally Awesome. That stuff works great and will strip acrylic paint in minutes.

After you strip the paint wash the parts in soapy water to remove any leftover Totally Awesome.

Then I recommend a paint that might be better suited to the application.  If you want to stick with low odor, try Tamiya X or XF line of acrylic paints. They have some solvent in them so there is a little odor, but they can be used inside.

To thin the X or XF paints, you can use Tamiya acrylic thinner. If you can use something with odor, like you have a way to ventillate, then get some Mr Leveling Thinner from Mr Hobby. Tamiya paints love that stuff.

I will get bad remarks about this, but you can thin X and XF Tamiya paints with water. People will disagree, but it works. This will keep the odors down if you don't have ventillation.

Another option for low odor acrylic paints is the Createx line. They are available in craft stores, art supply stores, and Hobby Lobby. They are acrylic and low odor and have a nice gloss clear to put over your paint.

 I appreciate the thoughtful reply. Gone are the days when we had only one source of paint in the little carboard box with the variety of enamels. i know they are still available but im a little more choosy now. Thinning for airbrushing is something i am tackling now im looking for a pdf i can print as a handy source for hobby paint and thinning. I am leaning toward Craftex and Model Master since i have quit a large collection of MM from my other hobbie.

I kind of skimmed the replies, but I wanted to touch on one term I saw the OP use.

Rubbery

If you are using an acrylic paint that is designed for clothing, or lexan, or any other flexible surface, you are buying a paint that will cure "rubbery" because it needs to cure flexible in those applications.  I can't say for sure your paint is like this, but when I hear "craft store acrylic" and "cured rubbery" I have a feeling this might be what is going on.

Strip the paint and start over.  For acrylic paints I use LA's Totally Awesome. That stuff works great and will strip acrylic paint in minutes.

After you strip the paint wash the parts in soapy water to remove any leftover Totally Awesome.

Then I recommend a paint that might be better suited to the application.  If you want to stick with low odor, try Tamiya X or XF line of acrylic paints. They have some solvent in them so there is a little odor, but they can be used inside.

To thin the X or XF paints, you can use Tamiya acrylic thinner. If you can use something with odor, like you have a way to ventillate, then get some Mr Leveling Thinner from Mr Hobby. Tamiya paints love that stuff.

I will get bad remarks about this, but you can thin X and XF Tamiya paints with water. People will disagree, but it works. This will keep the odors down if you don't have ventillation.

Another option for low odor acrylic paints is the Createx line. They are available in craft stores, art supply stores, and Hobby Lobby. They are acrylic and low odor and have a nice gloss clear to put over your paint.

CFster

Surely you're not recommending people spray lacquers without a respirator and proper ventilation, right? And you realize it's not about the smell, it's about the airborne VOCs. 

Nobody said that here, and it would help a great deal if you would use the quote feature so people can determine who it is that you're addressing your reply to. 

CFster

Surely you're not recommending people spray lacquers without a respirator and proper ventilation, right? And you realize it's not about the smell, it's about the airborne VOCs. 

 

I don't think anyone in the thread has suggested not using a mask in general, be that for spraying solvent paints or water borne acrylics. Most here use them anyway.

Surely you're not recommending people spray lacquers without a respirator and proper ventilation, right? And you realize it's not about the smell, it's about the airborne VOCs. 

Lightning Pilot

I've discovered that very light sanding (≥800 grit), or even polishing with a polishing stick can be used to remove minor defects in Vallejo primer coats.

Somewhere on the Vallejo website I read a recommendation for buffing the primer coat with blotter paper or equivalent. Haven't tried that, yet.

 

I used to buff up Stynylrez with 000 steel wool ( it actually made a sheen on it), that may work on the Vallejo primer well, though I haven't tried it. I should, then I can add it to my 8 year long list of tests of various acrylic paints lol. I have nothing against Vallejo primer personally, I just like Stynylrez better. I know some folks just about hate the stuff but I have no idea if they follow Vallejo's suggested 24 hour cure time etc.

Anyway, I stopped the steel wool idea on Stynylrez for a couple of reasons. Most of the time it needs nothing. When it needs a scuff micro pads work fine at around 1000- 1500 or so. But I wanted a bit of tooth to the scuff, not a polishing. But with stynylrez you can sand it down to feather it off if you wanted to.

I've discovered that very light sanding (≥800 grit), or even polishing with a polishing stick can be used to remove minor defects in Vallejo primer coats.

Somewhere on the Vallejo website I read a recommendation for buffing the primer coat with blotter paper or equivalent. Haven't tried that, yet.

I have no issue with Vallejo paints. The primer in my book is just OK, but Stynylrez is a big notch up and a very similar type of primer ( acrylic/poly). Both apply nice but Vallejo really is a next day cure type primer, where Stynylrez is ready to go in 30 minutes to an hour. Vallejo is non sanding, Stynylrez sands or scuffs very well. Stynylrez will handle a full blue painters tape pull test ( I've conducted this test myself). Stynylrez will accept all acrylics, water borne or alcohol, along with enamels and mild lacquers. If hot lacquer is someones thing then stick with the solvent based lacquer primers . Stynylrez is also a primer/sealer. Not sure if Vallejo primer ticks that box or not.

I've been using Stynylrez in the fashion I mention above for 7-8 years now. The only stipulation is if it's shelved for long periods of time then it needs a good power mixing with something like the Badger battery operated hand held mixer. You will never get it all back together by shaking or with a stick. And never let it freeze, if it freezes it's over with. Just sayin.

Lightning Pilot

...and only use compatible paints intended for scale modeling. 

And if someone wants to experiment, use a "test mule"-an old kit, other scraps of styrene, like lawn signs, milk jugs, plastic spoons, etc, before shooting it on a model.

I am a fan of Vallejo primers. Used properly, on a clean surface they work quite well, especially under Vallejo paints.

Paint and solvent compatibility is always an issue. Unless you really know your paint chemistry, mixing different types is an experiment waiting to go wrong. It's not worth ruining an expensive kit or wasting expensive paint.

I was once a coatings chemist, and I don't experiment on kits. My suggestion is to strip the paint from the model, and only use compatible paints intended for scale modeling.

My editor messed up i thought you said it could mix with mek and i ment to say i did not know it could mix 

John3M

What paint do you use?

 

I use enamels and lacquers like Mr. Color, Tamiya, Testors, Alclad. As for primers I use Mr. Surfacer, and Tamiya both have superior bonding qualities over acrylics.

Eaglecash867

I'm not a fan of Vallejo or any water-based acrylic for airbrushing either.  For a primer, I use decanted Tamiya Surface Primer, thinned with MEK for extra bite on the plastic.  Gunze has their Mr. Surfacer primer that is already in bottles, and its pretty much the same stuff as far as I can tell.  I used to use Mr. Surfacer 1000, also thinned with MEK, and that was an excellent airbrushed primer.  For painting a car body, I would recommend an enamel paint like MCW or Model Master (you can still find Model Master enamels, but they don't make them anymore, so they're usually pretty costly).  Enamels do take a while to fully cure (about a week for a gloss paintjob) and they are a little fragile, but they're far more durable than most acrylics, and lacquers are great for durability and drying time, but its much more difficult to get a good gloss with those because they dry so quickly.

 

Ditto

John3M

Not limited to acrylic but i am both by fumes

i did know you could use mek with acrylic paint. However i have a paint hood with extraction to outside. 

 

MEK and acrylic paint aren't compatible, so don't mix those together, it'll gum up your airbrush.  The primers I thin with MEK are both lacquers.

The good thing about both MEK and lacquer-based paints and primers is that, although they all are really smelly, they dry so quickly that the smell doesn't linger like it does with enamels.  You can also keep the fumes to a minimum with your airbrushing technique.  Unlike a lot of guys I see making videos on YouTube, I've never seen the need for using my airbrush like a firehose and shooting clouds of paint mist.  Nearly all of the paint I'm shooting is going on the model and not into the air.

Not limited to acrylic but i am both by fumes

i did not know you could use mek with acrylic paint. However i have a paint hood with extraction to outside. 

I'm not a fan of Vallejo or any water-based acrylic for airbrushing either.  For a primer, I use decanted Tamiya Surface Primer, thinned with MEK for extra bite on the plastic.  Gunze has their Mr. Surfacer primer that is already in bottles, and its pretty much the same stuff as far as I can tell.  I used to use Mr. Surfacer 1000, also thinned with MEK, and that was an excellent airbrushed primer.  For painting a car body, I would recommend an enamel paint like MCW or Model Master (you can still find Model Master enamels, but they don't make them anymore, so they're usually pretty costly).  Enamels do take a while to fully cure (about a week for a gloss paintjob) and they are a little fragile, but they're far more durable than most acrylics, and lacquers are great for durability and drying time, but its much more difficult to get a good gloss with those because they dry so quickly.