Iwata/Badger Wars...

Ryan,

Good luck getting fine lines with Modeling paints through a Micron.
I wouldn't waste your money.
Those fine lines you are seeing are probably done with inks as the media has to be REAL thin to flow reliably through a .18mm tip.
Using a Micron for modeling is like using a Barrett light .50 for deer hunting....total overkill

Mike

It says that it is for illustration, watercolor, and acrylics and that it is a good matchup for model builders and is an excellent matchup for figure/miniature painters. Just what I need!

Hey, it's your money my friend.

Mike

I want a custom micron for illustration, but can't yet afford it. I've got a picture all ready to go, I just need an illustration airbrush to work on it with. The Revolution just won't do what I can do with a pencil, and that's what I need.

Josh,

Why not try a Sotar 20/20 for half the cost?

Mike

armormaster, i'm with mike on this one my friend. when i first got my hp-c i had lots of trouble getting a fine line with tamiya acrylics and mm enamels with the .3mm n/n. i even thinned at 90% thinner to 10%paint ratio and droped the pressure below 8 psi as this was the starting # on my pressure gauge. i cant imagine trying to squeeze mm enamels through a .18mm n/n combo!! the chart on the iwata homepage returns "excellent" for using the hp-c for enamels, acrylics, and hobbiest. i had a fellow at my LHS tell me that with a sotar he could dot the eye on a 120mm figurine. who knows my friend? i would continue to read up on that jewel before i spent that kind of money on it. later.

Hey MikeV its more like using an m72 law for taking out a log.
or a BAR for shooting a rabbit'

oh mikeV how big is the smallest needle for the 150? the needle fits the 100 too, and its the fine one so.....

QUOTE: Originally posted by 1337 oh mikeV how big is the smallest needle for the 150? the needle fits the 100 too, and its the fine one so.....

I am not sure of the size of the needle and tip as Badger does not advertise the sizes as they are not that important. I think advertising the tip size is a marketing ploy as needle taper is what's important, not diameter.
I can find out for you if you really need to know.

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV Josh, Why not try a Sotar 20/20 for half the cost? Mike

How does the Sotar compare? I've heard a bad thing or two about the sturdiness of the body or something similar. I don't remember exactly what now as it was a while back. I kind of got the micron bug after reading Dru Blair's site. If it's as quality a brush, I'd be open to the Sotar, I'm not an airbrush elitest.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV Josh, Why not try a Sotar 20/20 for half the cost? Mike

My HP-CS sprays just as fine lines as my Sotar and atomizes better using inks.

Yeah, I think I'm happy with the hp-cs, but it would be cool to save up and get an AB like that someday... I wouldn't get it for modeling though, so I'm trusting the experience in the forums, so I'd probably only get it for illustration... But gotta admit, the idea sounds cool!

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV Josh, Why not try a Sotar 20/20 for half the cost? Mike

I found this on the Badger web site email:

To whom it may concern,

I received my Sotar 20/20 airbrush back in the mail yesterday and wanted to thank everyone at Badger for fixing it for me - I was so glad to get it back that I had to try it out last night! Happily, it's back to working as beautifully as it did before I soaked it in lacquer thinner and ruined the O-ring in the air plunger!

I really appreciate the quick turnaround on this, especially considering I sent it to you just before the holidays.

Thanks again,
(name not included)

This is a jaded compliment to Badger. Badger fixed it (I wonder how much it cost to fix) but it seems the Sotar doesn't like lacquer thinner. I use enamel paints and lacquer thinner. My 1983 Iwata has lived with the thinner all these years and never given up its O-ring to any liquid. I don't want to be picky with what liquid I have to use when spraying.

Dissolving O-rings might be a good reason to not get that Badger airbrush.

http://www.badger-airbrush.com/email.htm

and why you should buy the micron over the sotar...

Well the new microns are supposed to have teflon rings. I don't think that will really be an issue for me though, as anything I'd be doing with that brush would be using inks and watercolors, not real paints. I really do want one for illustration, as I like to draw.

Just for the record, Chris, aka Saltydog draws mighty well, maybe if we pester him he'll post a couple of the pics he has.

QUOTE: Originally posted by plum1030 [br My HP-CS sprays just as fine lines as my Sotar and atomizes better using inks.

Which needle do you have in the Sotar?

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by roosterfish [br This is a jaded compliment to Badger. Badger fixed it (I wonder how much it cost to fix)

Badger airbrushes have a lifetime guarantee on labor so all this person probably had to buy was a new O ring.

QUOTE: but it seems the Sotar doesn't like lacquer thinner. I use enamel paints and lacquer thinner. My 1983 Iwata has lived with the thinner all these years and never given up its O-ring to any liquid. I don't want to be picky with what liquid I have to use when spraying. Dissolving O-rings might be a good reason to not get that Badger airbrush.

You need to re-read that letter. The guy soaked his airbrush in lacquer thinner and ruined the O ring in the air valve. No airbrush has solvent-proof O rings in the air valve that I am aware of. All experts will tell you to not soak the entire airbrush in lacquer unless you remove the air valve assembly first.

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by maddafinga How does the Sotar compare?

According to my friend who has been in the airbrush industry for 40 years, the Sotar is better than the Micron and has a tougher needle.

QUOTE: I've heard a bad thing or two about the sturdiness of the body or something similar. I don't remember exactly what now as it was a while back.

I think that was Plum1030 who commented on that.

QUOTE: I kind of got the micron bug after reading Dru Blair's site. If it's as quality a brush, I'd be open to the Sotar, I'm not an airbrush elitest.

Is Dru sponsored by Iwata? Many artists are and you are not going to hear them endorse other brands.

Mike

I know you are protecting the Badger company and reputation, Mike, but I didn't write the testimony so you will have to take Badger and the testimony writer to task this time, not me. I just posted what is on the official Badger web site.

The writer wrote that his Sotar broke down. He soaked the O-ring in lacquer thinner. The soaking could have been one day or one minute but he didn't say how long. But he did say that lacquer thinner ruined the O-ring. I didn't see Badger deny the thinner dissolving the O-ring problem on their web site so it must have happened.

Badger didn't say they fixed the brush for free or parts only so we don't know. Probably mean that it could be paid for by Badger but not necessarily.

None of my Iwata airbrushes O-rings have dissolved? Has anyone else’s Iwata airbrush got dissolved O-rings?

http://www.badger-airbrush.com/email.htm

QUOTE: None of my Iwata airbrushes O-rings have dissolved? Has anyone else’s Iwata airbrush got dissolved O-rings?

Um, that would be a negitive, but I've been a happy Iwata owner for a month now, plus I only use acrylics in mine. Of course, judging on the quality of everything else, it's not showing me anythings going to crap out on me soon or at all.

ArmorMaster, you won't have to worry about your O-ring dissolving. The O-rings in my Iwatas have all kissed lacquer thinner and lived to tell another tale. I might dance one of my Iwatas in the thinner tonight. I'd be scared if I had a Sotar looking at lacquer thinner.

Hey I'll jump in on this. The letter states the o-ring was in the air valve. That is the only place the Sotar has an o-ring. Just so you know most o-rings in airbrushes are made out of butyl which is not that resistant to the type of solvents used in painting. Unless the o-ring is made out of viton or some other chemical resistant oring material it is going to break down when exposed to thinners. This break down can be swelling, drying out and just breaking down of the ring. The reason the orings aren't made out of better materials are cost and you are not supposed to nor is there a reason to soak the airvalve in any airbrush. If you soak your 'almighty' Iwata airvalve in laquer thinner the same thing is going to happen.
The Sotar is an excellent airbrush and will spray just as fine as line as a micron without any troubles. Yes, the needle is tougher too at least in my experience and that has been one of my issues with Iwata's are the strength of their needles. The only thing that would make the micron better is if it felt more comfortable in use. This comes from many years of airbrush use and no, Badger is not my favorit airbrush. Mike is right when saying you will have a terrible time trying to spray model paint through the .18mm nozzle. What you can do is get some artist grade acrylic paint such as Liquidtex or golden and thin it with their airbrush mediums. You will get a much finer and higher quality pigmented paint this way and you will be able to spray it through the airbrush without too much hassle just make sure you are spraying over a primer coat. Thanks for listening.
John

QUOTE: Originally posted by roosterfish I know you are protecting the Badger company and reputation, Mike, but I didn't write the testimony so you will have to take Badger and the testimony writer to task this time, not me. I just posted what is on the official Badger web site.

I am not "protecting" anything. You quoted the letter on their web site and it said the O ring in the air valve was ruined. These are not solvent-proof O rings as far as I know on any airbrush as lacquer has no business ever coming in contact with them.

QUOTE: The writer wrote that his Sotar broke down. He soaked the O-ring in lacquer thinner. The soaking could have been one day or one minute but he didn't say how long. But he did say that lacquer thinner ruined the O-ring. I didn't see Badger deny the thinner dissolving the O-ring problem on their web site so it must have happened.

When did I say it didn't happen?

QUOTE: Badger didn't say they fixed the brush for free or parts only so we don't know. Probably mean that it could be paid for by Badger but not necessarily.

Badger's warranty is for life on labor for all of their airbrushes, that is not my opinion.
My guess is that Badger fixed this for free. I know a guy who sent 15 of his airbrushes to Badger and they repaired them all for free. Let's see Iwata do that!

QUOTE: None of my Iwata airbrushes O-rings have dissolved? Has anyone else’s Iwata airbrush got dissolved O-rings?

Have you soaked the entire airbrush in lacquer or just used it to spray out the airbrush?

Mike

John,

Thank You for backing up what I said as you have more experience than I do with airbrushes and I appreciate your input.
I have to call Ken and get me a Sotar to try out too.

Mike

Mike does like to quote me, doesn't he?

He is actually quoting to what the Badger web site says.

I've never heard of any Iwata airbrush rings dissolving and I've dunked mine in the thinner before. I'm not a new-comer to Iwata airbrushes and I've never heard of an O-ring problem with them.

Maybe I have the only rare Iwata airbrushes with solvent-proof O-rings? Maybe my Iwata airbrushes are the best airbrushes in the world because mine are the only ones with solvent proof O-rings. Yes, YES!

Badgers own web site has the email that says the Sotar O-ring was ruined. I didn't say it. Badger did. I quoted, verbatim, what the Badger web site says and even left a web link for others to read. It was not a subjective opinion by me. So don't flame me. Tell Badger to pull off that testimony.

The testimony on Badgers web site does make me wonder if other Badger airbrushes share parts with the Sotar.

QUOTE: I know a guy who sent 15 of his airbrushes to Badger and they repaired them all for free. Let's see Iwata do that!

Don't think Iwata needs to worry about a customer sending in their own company's AB 15 times (quality), thats why they won't do it.

i'm with armormaster on this one. maybe iwata's customer service sucks so bad because no one ever has to use it!! maybe they put there worst employees in there sort of as a "penalty box"!! you dont need customer service if you have an excellent product of good quality because no ones gonna use it much. i could care less about dewalt's customer service because i've used there products so many times that i know that when i take the tool out of the box its gonna do its job and do it well. iwata is a fine quality airbrush. i have had prompt responses from iwata customer service if i've had questions. i've never had to send a product back to iwata so i dont know how they would respond. both my iwata airbrushes are only a couple of months old though. however, i'd love to send my omni 5000 back to badger and see if they would repair mine or find out what i'm doing wrong or whatever. later.

QUOTE: Originally posted by roosterfish Mike does like to quote me, doesn't he? He is actually quoting to what the Badger web site says.

Who said I wasn't quoting what the web site says?

QUOTE: I've never heard of any Iwata airbrush rings dissolving and I've dunked mine in the thinner before. I'm not a new-comer to Iwata airbrushes and I've never heard of an O-ring problem with them.

And because you have never heard of it happening means that it doesn't?
Call Dave Monnig at Coast Airbrush tomorrow and ask him about it.
He is a big Iwata dealer and he will tell you what we are telling you.

QUOTE: Badgers own web site has the email that says the Sotar O-ring was ruined. I didn't say it. Badger did. I quoted, verbatim, what the Badger web site says and even left a web link for others to read. It was not a subjective opinion by me. So don't flame me. Tell Badger to pull off that testimony.

What are you talking about? I flamed nobody. Do you even pay attention to what others say when they answer? I am not denying that it happened to this person and it says so on Badger's web site, but what does that have to do with it? John and I both told you that NO airbrush should have the air valve seal submerged in lacquer thinner and you seem to think we are wrong for whatever reason. John even told you what they were made of and why they swell, crack and are ruined from harsh chemicals.
If Iwata's were so solvent-proof then why is a Teflon needle bearing optional and not standard?
You can believe what you want as it makes no difference to me.

Mike

QUOTE: Originally posted by ArmorMaster [Don't think Iwata needs to worry about a customer sending in their own company's AB 15 times (quality), thats why they won't do it.

It has nothing to do with quality, it has to do with wear and tear.
This guy is a T-shirt artist and they put an airbrush through much more than any modelers ever dream of. These guys spray 60-100 psi for 10-12 hours a day, 6 and 7 days a week. No airbrush goes through that without needing a needle bearing after a while.

Mike

QUOTE: It has nothing to do with quality

Good Lord, are you kidding! If I'm gonna put down the moola for an AB I want some quality! Some good quality!