I officially hate acrylics!

gjek wrote:

How would the denatured alcohol work with MM paints?

H3nav,

Yes, I have found that Tamiya's thinner affects adhesion and the integrity of the paint film.  For example, I used Tamiya's thinner for a over-all gloss white (X-2) on a prior project in 2003.  Prior to airbrushing, I washed the bare styrene, wiped with *Plastic Prep and let the model dry overnight.  Then I airbrushed the mix.  It thinned great, but after allowing the paint to cure for two days and the paint now cured and glossy, I went to use their own masking tape for a demarcation line and..."Disaster!"  The paint came right off, down to the bare plastic.  And areas where the paint didn't come off, I noticed that the tape's adhesive had some sort of chemical reaction to the gloss paint, marring the gloss finish.  It looked horrible.  3 years later, for a recent T-45A Goshawk model, I thinned the same gloss white with Denatured Alcohol *(DNA) instead.  I took the same basic steps in preping the model and this time, success!  The paint had excellent adhesion.  Not only did the paint adhere extremely well using Tamiya and other masking tapes, but the gloss white stayed shiny and smooth.  I know what you may be thinking, as did I...did this happen with other colors?  Not the flats as much, but the gloss colors reacted consistantly badly.  This may not be others experiences, however.  Since then, I've had trouble-free painting, using *DNA.  Huh, now thats a very appropriate acrynm! 

MikeV wrote:

nsclcctl wrote: If you are what I see in the picture, I certainly appreciate so much what you are doing for our contry.  Thanks! Thanks for the support. That picture is my son.

He looks just like ya, minus the beard and mustache of course!

E

nsclcctl wrote:

If you are what I see in the picture, I certainly appreciate so much what you are doing for our contry.  Thanks!

Mike,

Sorry to hear about yor problem.  Of all the suggestions I have read in this thread to help you I don't recall anyone mentioning using Tamiya tape.  I think it is the best out there and should solve your lifting problems.  I use to use 3M but experienced the same problems as you.  That was the reason  I made the switch.

Chuck B.

Hey Greg, I for one have never had luck with acrylics, but I am thoroughly encouraged by your posts using Tamiya paints. Sorry Tom, but my LHS doesn't have the airplane version of Vallejo paints, not enough demand. They also recently stopped carrying Polly Scale, again not enogh demand. But there is plenty of Gunze and Tamiya. So one last question about thinning Tamiya; Greg, do you prefer denatured alcohol over Tamiya's thinner with the retarder?

E

MikeV wrote:

Thanks Pharoah. Have you tried an adhesion promoter like Bulldog on those helmets? I like doing decals myself, maybe I am odd.

plasticmod992 wrote:

I settled on Denatured Alcohol due to a difference I noticed in the atomization, spraying characteristics, and the final appearance of the paint once dried on the model.  The difference was, when thinned with 91% Isopropyl alcohol, the paint film was extremely dry, almost chalk dry, if you will.  And when I went over a previously sprayed area to fill in, say a camo outline, I experienced blushing, as if the spray from the airbrush was rewetting the dry surface film.  It looked very odd, and again very, very, dead flat.  The result early on with this, was frequent poor adhesion..even Tamiya masking tape seemed to pull the fully cured paint film right off, dispite a very clean bare plastic surface.   This prompted me to try 70% Isopropyl, with more water content.  While it thinned the paint fine, atomization suffered, due to, I suspect to the surface tention of the water in the alcohol, and in some cases, even with retarders added to compensate.  My demands were high, as the mix had to spray finelines for my 1/72nd scale jets.  I then pulled out FSM's old book, "Painting And Finishing Scale Models" authored by Paul Boyer, 1992.  I went to the chapter: "Using acrylic modeling paints", where he experimented with popular acrylics and their thinners.  Wooh, to my surprise, Paul tried *Denatured Alcohol, (pictured on page #59 of the article)  Paul mentioned he tried denatured alcohol as well as Isopropyl  for some of the acrylics he sprayed, namely Tamiya.  So I paid a meger $2.99 for a Quart at the home store, gave it a shot, and alas...... it worked very well!    This time, the paint seemed to mix more thouroughly  and atomize finer than other alcohols.  Fine line spray was emmediate, easy to achieve, control, and maintain.  And lastly, the paint film had the same characteristics like that of enamels when the spray contacted the models' surface.  The freshly sprayed paint stayed shinny or "wet" for a few moments on the models surface and slowly dried to an  even, smooth sheen with no blushing or "dead flat" appearance.  Glosses stayed glossy and flats were slightly satin, to my surprise.  I didn't have to use retarders either. The denatured alcohol seemed to re-wet any dried paint on the tip, if any, from the airbrush's needle- just like enamels and mineral spirits.  The kicker was that, adhesion was excellent, far superior- after letting the paint cure for as little as an hour, even faster cure in my home-made drying oven.  Masking tapes didn't budge it.  So this was the experiences that lead me to settle with Denatured Alcohol.  If you can get your hands on these older FSM books, do so...they retrained me in scale modeling.  Hope this inspires!

MikeV wrote:

plasticmod992 wrote: And you're always welcome Mike.  That will surely be a striking model when complete..can't wait to see it finished.  Ok...well, don't leave us all in limbo here, what did you decide?  Enamels or acrylics??? LOL!  It was a hard decision for me, like yourself and others I'm sure.  I had enamels in my blood, so to speak, ya know?  It was hard during the transition not to grab that dependable bottle of FS "whatever" from the rack.  Well, at any rate,  good luck with whatever you decide and lets see some in-progress pics when you get an opportunity.  Later.  Greg, I want to try the Tamiya acrylics on this kit. Does iso alcohol or ethyl alcohol seem to work as well as denatured that you use? Just curious if you have tried other types and settled on the denatured because it was better? I have some work to do on it before I can repaint it as I am still trying to strip the old paint off which is a slow process as I can't submerge it in Super Clean as the cockpit is finished. Then I have to put on the standard tail and then she will be ready to paint. I have to figure out the colors I need also for that paint job.

I settled on Denatured Alcohol due to a difference I noticed in the atomization, spraying characteristics, and the final appearance of the paint once dried on the model.  The difference was, when thinned with 91% Isopropyl alcohol, the paint film was extremely dry, almost chalk dry, if you will.  And when I went over a previously sprayed area to fill in, say a camo outline, I experienced blushing, as if the spray from the airbrush was rewetting the dry surface film.  It looked very odd, and again very, very, dead flat.  The result early on with this, was frequent poor adhesion..even Tamiya masking tape seemed to pull the fully cured paint film right off, dispite a very clean bare plastic surface.   This prompted me to try 70% Isopropyl, with more water content.  While it thinned the paint fine, atomization suffered, due to, I suspect to the surface tention of the water in the alcohol, and in some cases, even with retarders added to compensate.  My demands were high, as the mix had to spray finelines for my 1/72nd scale jets.  I then pulled out FSM's old book, "Painting And Finishing Scale Models" authored by Paul Boyer, 1992.  I went to the chapter: "Using acrylic modeling paints", where he experimented with popular acrylics and their thinners.  Wooh, to my surprise, Paul tried *Denatured Alcohol, (pictured on page #59 of the article)  Paul mentioned he tried denatured alcohol as well as Isopropyl  for some of the acrylics he sprayed, namely Tamiya.  So I paid a meger $2.99 for a Quart at the home store, gave it a shot, and alas...... it worked very well!   

This time, the paint seemed to mix more thouroughly  and atomize finer than other alcohols.  Fine line spray was emmediate, easy to achieve, control, and maintain.  And lastly, the paint film had the same characteristics like that of enamels when the spray contacted the models' surface.  The freshly sprayed paint stayed shinny or "wet" for a few moments on the models surface and slowly dried to an  even, smooth sheen with no blushing or "dead flat" appearance.  Glosses stayed glossy and flats were slightly satin, to my surprise.  I didn't have to use retarders either. The denatured alcohol seemed to re-wet any dried paint on the tip, if any, from the airbrush's needle- just like enamels and mineral spirits.  The kicker was that, adhesion was excellent, far superior- after letting the paint cure for as little as an hour, even faster cure in my home-made drying oven.  Masking tapes didn't budge it.  So this was the experiences that lead me to settle with Denatured Alcohol.  If you can get your hands on these older FSM books, do so...they retrained me in scale modeling.  Hope this inspires!

plasticmod992 wrote:

And you're always welcome Mike.  That will surely be a striking model when complete..can't wait to see it finished.  Ok...well, don't leave us all in limbo here, what did you decide?  Enamels or acrylics??? LOL!  It was a hard decision for me, like yourself and others I'm sure.  I had enamels in my blood, so to speak, ya know?  It was hard during the transition not to grab that dependable bottle of FS "whatever" from the rack.  Well, at any rate,  good luck with whatever you decide and lets see some in-progress pics when you get an opportunity.  Later.

And you're always welcome Mike.  That will surely be a striking model when complete..can't wait to see it finished.  Ok...well, don't leave us all in limbo here, what did you decide?  Enamels or acrylics??? LOL!  It was a hard decision for me, like yourself and others I'm sure.  I had enamels in my blood, so to speak, ya know?  It was hard during the transition not to grab that dependable bottle of FS "whatever" from the rack.  Well, at any rate,  good luck with whatever you decide and lets see some in-progress pics when you get an opportunity.  Later. 

True guys, I did post the use of laquer thinner with the Tamiya.  It was just a test run inspired by another modelers results.  I currently use the Denatured Alcohol exclusively.  It has proven to be a very excellent plastic prep, thinner and airbrush cleaner for Tamiya acrylics in my experience.  ARC will be publishing my article on my lasted effort, an F-14B (AA-102) from VF-103, "Jolly Rogers", painted again, entirely with Tamiya acrylics! (Photo below)  I no longer use any enamels or laquers, for all the reasons I mentioned in a prior posting, in response to MikeV's "Acrylic -VS- Enamel" thread.  

MikeV, don't give up!  Ditch the MM Acryl and go Tamiya.  I would follow MusicCity's advice for correcting the area, save for the other damage in pulling off the tail (snicker) and finish the model.  After sanding the area smooth, and if you want to finish things up this weekend armed with Tamiya acrylics, here are the paint mixing formulas for the base colors you'll need for your F-16 color scheme.  I presume it wears the "Hill scheme" base colors.  Good luck my friend! Here are the equivelicies:  Oh... FYI, the photo of my model below is meant to be a source of inspiration, not to toot my own horn.  More to demonstrate what Tamiya acrylics can do for your models, I know I'm sold!

F-16 base color(s)  "Hill scheme"

Tamiya Acrylic equivelencies: 

FS36270- XF-20 (* Add a few drops of X-2 if it is too dark to your eye) 

FS36118- XF-24

FS36375- (15 drops/ parts) XF-2, (3 parts) XF-24 and (2 parts) XF-66 

Sneak preview:  My lastest build, AA-102, VF-103, Operation Enduring Freedom, 2002 "low-vis" scheme. Painting and finishing using Tamiya acrylics.

MikeV wrote:

H3nav wrote: Mike, don't forget to try that Tamiya this weekend. Are you going to use it with laquer thinner as some have suggested?   E No way! Why would you use lacquer thinner for an acrylic paint? I will try my 91% isopropyl alcohol/filtered water 50/50 mixture to thin it and see how it does. If I don't like the results then it's back to enamels.

Mike, I was referring to a post by Greg back on 12-27-2004 about thinning Tamiya acrylics with lacquer thinner. I believe your original reply was that it would defeat the purpose of geting away from the fumes and such. But Greg swore by it and said the paint flowed and leveled nicely. I may try it when the weather gets better for outside airbrushing.

E

H3nav wrote:

Mike, don't forget to try that Tamiya this weekend. Are you going to use it with laquer thinner as some have suggested?   E

Mike, don't forget to try that Tamiya this weekend. Are you going to use it with laquer thinner as some have suggested?

E