Panda 1/35 to UH-1D specs and questions

can you identify this instrument package? 

what model ??

caption states it's from an HHT bird from the 2/17th Cav.

http://www.vhpamuseum.org/aircraft/images/UH-1seat.jpg

You've pretty much got it all down.  Check out this thread for more info.  It gives all the details between D and H models.  It should give you all the info you need.

You are correct.  1/9 Air Cav, 1st Air Cavalry Division was at the battle of the Ia Drang valley.

Welcome over to FSM.

Gino has pointed you in the right place for most of the info you need.  You might also peruse the Vietnam Huey thread for all kinds of miscellaneous stuff relating to Hueys.  However, you did mention a few things that aren't in either of those threads to my knowledge:

 "I do see the zig-zagging antennae on the right side of the tail boom in pics...what is it actually anyways??"

     -This is a "High Line" HF antenna and is on both sides of the aircraft. The pic below an early D model.  Mel informed me that the vents on the doghouse are different between the two- vertical on the early D's and horizontal on late D's and H's (at least that's what I have deduced).

How about a view from the rear:

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"how bout the air inlets on the roof?"

    - air inlets are cabin ventilation intakes.  The below pic is of a UH-1C.  How do I know- the strake on the right side, which was put in place to correct airflow problem encountered early in the Huey's development, identifies the aircraft as a short fuselage Huey (B or C).  The roof mounted pitot identifies it as a Charlie model. Thi pic shows three of the four vents. 

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 with my current Osprey books, i see a few questionable huey model type captions in the photos....captions keep stating the slicks in photos are D models with what I can see is roof mounted pitot tube and towel rack.

    -I have the same book and they must be labled incorrect because, although many D's were brought up to the H standard, I don't think the pitot tubes were ever moved from the nose to the roof. 

"anyone have a spectacular website for some D model photos??...."

  - Get the squadron book "UH-1 Huey in Action" for good D/H model pics and info. 

I hope you find some of this helpful

   Ray
 

Hi Bounce

It was the 1st and 2nd Battalion of the 7th Cavalry and 1st Battalion of the 5th Cavalry that took part in the battle of Ia Drang 65, and it was the Adopted 229th AHB that flew them into the battle, The 229th habitualy flew with 1/7th cav. And were the ones that flew Hal Moores B company 1/7th into X-Ray that day.

(Edit)

1/9th Cav did play an important role before during and after the battle at X-Ray. They flew scout ships throughout the battle to try to establish enemy troop movements. but were not involved directly in fire support or troop lifts.

Andy

Bounce19712 wrote:

I'm trying to pin down a particular unit/ company to duplicate decals with......allthough the Nov '65  Ia Drang battle  was my original intention...was that not the 1/9th?? (I'm still at the beginning of my research, but it seems now that I'm bent on building a D model with m23 mounts)

For all the technical huey facts posted here atleast try to  get the historical facts right for the sake of the vets.

Good info on other units that took part in the battle for the Ia Drang.  However, Bounce asked if 1/9 took part, they did.  He didn't ask how much play they had.  So the answer is still yes, 1/9 did take part in the battle.  They may not have been the main effort or major players, but they were still there.

great responses...thanks everyone.....I'll try not to dissapoint...

so the 229th huh?? well dang....so where was Bob Mason?? hehehe....I love that book....I gotta go back to chapter 5 (ChickenHawk)....

hmmm....gun mounts didnt arrive till after the fight....so then it was bungees and regular m-60's???  or was the sagami in play at the time??

ok..answers..lol...Bob was in Bravo Company...with the blue square on the doors?

C company flew the some of the 1rst Cav Division into x-ray or albany?....(blue circle on door?)

a picture I have from Airmobile, Squadron Signal shows no mounts on the C companies' D model hueys...

and last but not least...Crandall...was commmander of Alpha Company 229th...can I get a blue triangle for 500$? ....not sure yet...just a guess....hopefully there'll be some good tidbits in Hal Moore's book....

Luckily I have Joseph's decals for slicks....so....onward!!! clear right? 

Bounce19712 wrote:

hmmm....gun mounts didnt arrive till after the fight....so then it was bungees and regular m-60's???  or was the sagami in play at the time??

Neither. They had no weapons at all. From his MOH citation (emphasis mine):

Major Crandall provided a tremendous display of leadership by example and fearlessly courageous when he voluntarily flew his UNARMED helicopter through a gauntlet of enemy fire on flight after flight delivering desperately needed ammunition, water and medical supplies into one of the most hotly contested landing zones of the war, totally ignoring the almost unbelievably extreme risk to his life, while serving as Commanding officer and flight leader of a flight of 16 helicopters supporting the 1st Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the lst Cavalry Division.

IIRC, Crandall said that he gave some interviews years ago in which he claimed that his crew had weapons, but could not return fire because of the risk of hitting the 1/7 troopers. After he gave the interview, he said that one of his men reminded him that they did not get weapons until after the battle. Since then he admits that his initial recollection was mistaken and that they, in fact, had no weapons. 

This picture is from the U.S. Army's Center for Military History website and supposedly shows a helicopter during the battle. Although it's hard to see if the crewmember has a weapon, it is clear that there is no M-23 mount.

UH-1D

passenger compartment seating:

safe to bypass the red / orange seating colors and go with OD? unless using the Hi-vis paint scheme?

did most slicks not use the forward seating located right behind the pilots seats?

most of what I've seen has been the gunner's bench in the pockets and maybe the long one against the hellhole / bulkhead?

portholes on the transmission bulkhead for viewing oil levels and filters were located behind portions of the sound deadening material where?  behind the gunner's backs or facing forward in the middle/ center of the ship?

 did intercom cabling for the rear compartment follow with the helmets or were they left plugged in to the roof panels...

where did the "monkey leash" attach to for door gunners?

Hi Bounce,

Not to sure when the orange/red seating was fazed out to OD, im pretty sure most slicks left out the forward seating, it helped to make troop insertion and extraction a little faster, though i have seen a few with two single seats positioned directly behind the pilots seats facing outwards, towards the jump doors,

Not sure about the monkey harness or intercom cabling.

Andy

Bounce.

I hope you dont mind me hijacking your thread for a sec but im building a slick from 229th aswell so may be of interest to you also.

Its about the nose markings on the slicks at the Ia Drang 65, the standard was usually the 229th "Winged Assault" crest, but from photos of Ia Drang i cant see any nose markings, the only other info i have to go on is the We Were Soldiers film, at the start they all had the winged assault crest then during the battle they all had Air cav ones.

Does anyone know if this was the case or was it just for the movie? 

I have photos of Bruce's huey and other UH-1Ds from alpha and charlie troop taken during operation white wing in 66 and they all sport the winged assault nose markings.

Andy

Bounce19712 wrote:

UH-1D passenger compartment seating: safe to bypass the red / orange seating colors and go with OD? unless using the Hi-vis paint scheme?

Many still had the red seats into the '70s.  They would usually be left on untill they were too worn and needed to be replaced.     

did most slicks not use the forward seating located right behind the pilots seats?

It was basically a crew/unit decision to remove them or not.  I have seen as many with the rear-facing crew seat as not.

most of what I've seen has been the gunner's bench in the pockets and maybe the long one against the hellhole / bulkhead?

The long gunner's seat was the most common set-up.

portholes on the transmission bulkhead for viewing oil levels and filters were located behind portions of the sound deadening material where?  behind the gunner's backs or facing forward in the middle/ center of the ship?

There were access holes all over the bulkheads behind the sound proofing.

did intercom cabling for the rear compartment follow with the helmets or were they left plugged in to the roof panels...

The cable had a connector on the end that the cord from the helmet attached to.  The helmet cord detatched and the longer cord was left hanging from the squares on the roof.

where did the "monkey leash" attach to for door gunners?

There was usually a D ring on the wall behind the gunner where he snapped into.  They also could strap into a ring on the floor below them as well.

Hope that helps.

thanks again....youse guys are awesome!!!!!

how bout the little counter weights on the mains?  I see a few photos with and most without....?

they look a bit like the german stick grenades...

can you post any close up UH-1D pics ?  details details!!!

Good questions! The B and  YUH-1Ds (before the tailboom extension was added) had the same rotorhead with counterweights.  Here is a schemeatic of the 204 rotorhead.

All UH-1D/H models had a modified version of the above rotorhead that eliminated the blade counterweights and replaced them with TT (Tension/Torsion) straps.  Here is a schematic of that rotorhead (205 rotorhead):

[img]h

 Finally, to be complete, here is a schematic of the 540 rotorhead that characterized the UH-1C and later AH-1G (without the the stabalizer bar, part3):

[img]

  I hope this helps. 

  Ray

empeter wrote:

Bounce19712 wrote: hmmm....gun mounts didnt arrive till after the fight....so then it was bungees and regular m-60's???  or was the sagami in play at the time?? Neither. They had no weapons at all. From his MOH citation (emphasis mine): Major Crandall provided a tremendous display of leadership by example and fearlessly courageous when he voluntarily flew his UNARMED helicopter through a gauntlet of enemy fire on flight after flight delivering desperately needed ammunition, water and medical supplies into one of the most hotly contested landing zones of the war, totally ignoring the almost unbelievably extreme risk to his life, while serving as Commanding officer and flight leader of a flight of 16 helicopters supporting the 1st Battalion of the 7th Cavalry Regiment of the lst Cavalry Division. IIRC, Crandall said that he gave some interviews years ago in which he claimed that his crew had weapons, but could not return fire because of the risk of hitting the 1/7 troopers. After he gave the interview, he said that one of his men reminded him that they did not get weapons until after the battle. Since then he admits that his initial recollection was mistaken and that they, in fact, had no weapons.  This picture is from the U.S. Army's Center for Military History website and supposedly shows a helicopter during the battle. Although it's hard to see if the crewmember has a weapon, it is clear that there is no M-23 mount.

 page 123, We were Soldiers,

just hit upon that topic in the firefight occuring at X-ray and surrounding area.  Crandall is short on final on his fifth drop of the day...:

quote:  "As I was flaring out to touch down we started receiving heavy groundfire.  I touched down at the forward part of the LZ, looked out to my left and saw a Nrth Viet firing at my ship from a point just outside the length of my rotor blades.  Another enmy soldier was firing from the other side."........"Even though the enemy was that close, my door gunners could not take action to defend themselves.  Troops on the ground, or those getting out of our birds had to handle the enemy in the landing zones.we couldn't shoot without killing our own people on the perimeter, so our policy was not to shoot."

To add a wrench into the mix, the latest issue of Soldier Magazine, the official Army publication, has a whole section on Crandall's CMH ceremony and the battle of Ia Drang that he was awarded it for.  There are two pictures in the write-up that are said to be two of his helicopters from the battle and they both clearly show M23 mounts on the two helicopters.  Both are D models and have the triangle and snake emblem on the front doors. 

 Here they are:

 and some more air support.....the Blue Max Unit

"the ARA helos chewing up the slopes of Chu Pong on our behalf were from Charlie Battery, 2nd battalion, 20th ARA, commanded by Major Roger J. Bartholowew...Black Bart...one of his pilot's recalls:  "The battery fired all day in support of X-ray,  We refueled every third trip, never shutting down the engine.  Each helicopter carried 48 rockets, and with six helos plus the battery commander, we were going through ammo in a hurry....An artillery battalion commander, a lietenant colnel, and his driver were among the volunteers opening boxes of rockets to help keep us armed...Ch-47 helos flew load after load of ammo to keep us going..we stayed with it all day..."

Captain Richard B. Washburn, quoted from "We were Soldiers" book

so these were b/c models with xm-3...

 http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/uh1bara.jpg

Gino

Great pictures, thanks for posting them. 

As far as im aware Crandall's huey was the only one with a snake inside the blue triangle on the door. 

As a matter of interest I can see pitot tubes on the nose in the second picture but cant make them out in the first. I may be wrong but if there isnt pitots in the first pic then it could mean it was taken at a much later date.

In the pictures of Crandall's huey from Operation 'white wing' which started in Jan 66 and ended March 66 he still had pitot tubes on his bird. So the first picture could be from after that date!

Andy

Your probably right Gino, alot of glare on the nose aswell, fantastic pictures! I still cant find any with a shot of the nose markings.

Andy

Another point about the pics Gino posted is that the top one shows a ship with horizontal slats on the doghouse vents and, as I mentioned above, this is characteristic of later D's and H's, whereas early D's had vertical slats like the exple below:

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Admittedly this is a very early example since the tailboom has not been lengthened on this bird, but it shows what I mean.  What I don't know is exactly when the horizontal slats were first used.  anyway, another point to ponder.

        Ray
 

well...I couldn't be happier with the responses...Gino, your top picture along with the caption has helped me feel real good about putting the m23 mounts on Serpent 6.....

as far as looking into some identical slats for the dog house...I'll see what i can come up with...

thanks

Back to the pitot tube question on the first picture, i just came across a clearer picture of it on Bruce's site and the pitot is clearly visable in that one, so i was wrong

Andy

Hang on i may have been right about the picture coming from a later date. Came across this, check out the caption.

So it could still be possible they didnt have the M23 system at Ia Drang. They 100% had them in January of 66.

Looks like we will have to keep digging for more photo evidence of Ia Drang.

Andy

skypirate1 wrote:

Looks like we will have to keep digging for more photo evidence of Ia Drang.

I've been doing sum digging and apparently two UH-1D's went down in or just outside LZ X-Ray. One was hit in the engine and the second clipped the tree tops and had to make an emergency landing. Nobody was hurt and both crews were evacuated by fellow pilots. Both ships were put out of action and were lifted out by CH-47's two days after the battle.

After cross referencing sources and info on the following picture im pretty sure it is a genuine shot of one of the hueys being lifted from X-Ray. As you can see there are no signs of the M23 mount. In almost every other picture i have seen of downed hueys although the M60's were removed from there pintles, the M23 mount was not removed.

The picture also shows vertical slats on the doghouse vents, which ties in with what Ray said about early model UH-1D's being used at the battle of Ia Drang.

I have also come across a few reports from members of the 229th and the 7th cav stating that the slicks were "unarmed" and that "mounts for door guns had not been introduced and were not available at the time"

Hope this goes some way to help clear up the question about M23 mounts being used at LZ X-Ray.

As empeter says, there are no absolutes! and unless you were there (and can remember) its hard to pin down the facts. For me that picture mixed with other things i have read has helped make my mind up for now.

Andy 

Guys,

When you first said vertical vents on the "dog house" it threw me for a minute.  You meant the intake screens.  We always refered to the "dog house" as the aft section around the exhaust can.  When it was removed it resembled a dog house from the aft end.  From front to back it was the transmission cowl, intake screens, engine cowl, and dog house.  Had to "straighten" that out! 

Nice drawings of the rotor heads Ray!  Thanks!

cool, and so where and what is the hellhole exactly?....is it the general area behind the sound proofing, the space around the transmission, or the opening in the transmission cowl?  all of the above?

in ChickenHawk...Mason landed in some river and kids cleaned the slicks...even pouring water down the hellhole.....was there a large vent on the bottom of the helos too?