Off-Topic Discussion area removed

Sorry to see that it had to come to something as drastic as the removal of the OT forum.
I have mixed feelings about it. Personally, I was never offended by anythng there, but that is primarily because I never clicked on the controversial topics. I did enjoy the positive stuff that went on there.

Perhaps the "Odds and Ends" forum will incorporate the best of what the OT forum offered, without the harsh bits.

No matter what it becomes, I strongly urge any member thinking about cancelling his or her account because of all this to deeply reconsider. I don't want to see anyone on either side of this thing leave the forums.

There are some good comments here, and some legitimate questions that I should try to answer, but......I've got a bunch of important magazine deadlines in the next few days, so it'll be a while before I can respond properly. Nevertheless, I'm checking in to read your comments. Thanks, folks!

I agree with J-Hulk all the way. Sad to see it go. But it had kind of gotten out of hand. While sad to see it go, on should remember that this is not a political forum. Some of the stuff in there was getting out of hand.
I will do my level best to follow the rules. But I may slip up once in a while, after all I am only "Hu-Mon" (to quote the Ferengi).

I am still new to this site,so I don't really know exactly what was being said. I tend to avoid "items" like that.It kind of happened in a model club I was in once where the subject "jumped" from a modeling project to views of a different nature altogether.Was not a pretty sight, especially for younger modelers.Everyone is entitled to their opinion on some subjects as long as it is used at the right event. At modeling, there should be modeling discussion(museum trips,airshows,etc.....)where one can learn or get inspiration for that next project.Just let me know what I can do to help. I am here to learn from all of you. john swann

Change is inevitable in every aspect of all we do. Change took place on FSM, and not everyone's happy; I understand that. But for all those with "freedom of speech" issues, please realize that this forum really operates at the whim of Kalmbach Publishers. They ultimately decided what appears on the forum pages; if you see it, it's ok. If you don't, it isn't. Pretty basic stuff. The staff realized that their own rules weren't being followed, so they decided to enforce them. A few members didn't care for it and left. That's unfortunate, but that's also expected with change. It angers some, frightens some, while others wait to see what develops and ride out the storm, metaphorically speaking.
Personally, I think that the editors placed a great deal of thought into their decision before acting. It wasn't a rash or impulsive act, but an action executed after some perceptive observations, as they alluded to in the posting at the head of this thread. Me? I'm going to keep reading the posts offered here, and offer my own modest thought from time to time. I gain far more than I contribute, and I still think that FSM is the best place to follow my passion for modelling. My two cents worth. - Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by Keyworth Personally, I think that the editors placed a great deal of thought into their decision before acting. It wasn't a rash or impulsive act, but an action executed after some perceptive observations, as they alluded to in the posting at the head of this thread.

I agree completely.
Paul

It's all about professionalism, respecting others opinions, keeping your cool, and not taking or making anything personal.

My grad school did the same thing. We had some great, age old, debates on religion, but WOW! People really couldn't keep their emotions at bay to seriously continue the debate. Numerous other forum discussion areas have been removed for people failing to adhere to the aforementioned principles. Of course, if people could always adhere to those principles what would we model?

It was a good move, I couldn't agree with it more.

Tanks...

I didn't poke my head into the OT forum often ... not often at all ... I don't think I ever posted there at all. I just didn't care to get involved in some of the topics and threads that were in that forum ... but, then that was my choice. I do believe that when things get out of hand ... adjustments should be made. It is truely sad that some have left and perhaps others will too ... but, as for myself ... I will accept what has happened and move on with my life and my hobby. I have always enjoyed my time here in the FSM Community ... and will continue to do so ... thanks for letting me post my 2 cents !

I'm new here and never even poked my head into the OT area (actually the removal may have been before my arrival, I didn't check the date of the first post). What surpises me is that people would feel so strongly that they would quit the forum over it. I come here to get information, trade building advice etc. I find being able to ask how to do something, post a pic of my latest project or check out what someone else is building really keeps me motivated to build. Along the way in this site and some others I've also had the chance to find out a little something about some of the other posters as a bonus but I wonder why someone would leave a modeling site over an OT areas removal. I did not at all get the feeling from the first post that the moderators were going to come in and edit any and all non modeling discussion, just that which was likely to take away from the reason the site exists. I could be wrong but I've found most site moderators have enough trouble editing vulgar and blatently offensive posts so I'd really be surprised to find them editing a post because somebody includes something personal or a joke into their post, but I could be wrong maybe they will get a Class A rivit counter who will delete pics with incorrect camo patterns and such hope not though.

13-07-04
This really saddens me. In fact, it horrofies me. I know that from any get together I have ever attended for any club or hobby I have been involved in, there was always discussion about everything.
It helped people interested in the same things bond and understand each other and sure, topics were controversial, and not everyone agreed, but it was all part of the social event.

This is a form of censorship. It's like in the 50's when you couldn't dance too close to each other as it was considered dirty and sinful. We can't discuss O/T topics like adults? What next? Nobody who makes tanks can make aeroplanes?
No E.U. participation? No criticism for fear of upsetting the modeller?
Do you not realise that you have been effectively muzzled?

Sure, it's a modelling forum, but people like ot talk and shoot the breeze about other things while doing the kits etc.... and not just about kits.
So, if in the middle of a topic, someone cracks wise about Jay Leno or the Queen's haircut, will that post-reply be deleted?
Thought America was the land of the free. ( but only if we say it is and only if we approve ...... hmmmmmm, where have I heard that before?)

I remember a term I heard somewhere. Thought police.

I am going to have to think long and hard about this.
Liam

I have just come back off the road to see that you have taken the OT off.I know that some of these discussions got heavy and the games were maybe getting out of hand. But that forum was like a breath of fersh air.I got to know a lot of people and there ideals.It was like being at a pickle barrel at the genreal store or at the local coffee shop.
I really did enjoy this and wish that you would not remove it.Even thought it got heated at times,it did teach me at lest about people and how they think.A lot of you all were like family to me esspeically when I have very few friends.I am sorry to see this happen.Digger
After seeing two e-mails from a few people who I hold dear,I will stay and see what happens.I am just as gulity for getting involed in this mess as some of you.But I still liked
the thoughts and ideals of others.

sadly as people come back from vacations and such they will see the changes that have taken place. some will feel slighted. please before you leave the forums, take a step back and realize that we are still the same people. we have not changed. the new format will take a little getting used to but i am told that is how the veterans felt when the ot forum was added also. let the dust settle before you decide what your course of action is.

joe

is it that.....??????
"you can please some of the people, all of the time......
& you can please all of the people some of the time......
but, you can't please all of the people all of the time....."

i think that's the way it goes.......at least in spirit anyways.....

when there is a controversy.........why does good sense from either perspective fall on deaf ears ?

Wisely done, FSM.

This is a modelling forum. Let it be so, and not soured by political discussion. Once or twice, when my favorite model forums were slow, I would pop into the OT forum and would promptly go into threads in which I found opinions I strongly disagreed with. I felt a kind of strange compulsion to post a different opinion, and it sometimes became contentious. These posters would then give me a list of reasons why "people like me" have these opinions, and why our opinions aren't to be taken seriously by "real Americans." That kind of thing.

And so it went from there, straight down the drain. And there was no good reason for all the effort I devoted to it -- it was like having an impassioned argument with a child, or a garden snail. You know -- in the middle of making a point you look down and see the little eyestalks wiggling around and you ask yourself, "what am I doing?"

Anyway, after having repeated run-ins with one or two people on the OT furm, I nosed around a little bit in the other forums to see what they were posting, so that I could maybe soften my opinion of them a bit, and the amazing thing was, they weren't really posting much anywhere else. I wonder, why would you come to a modeling forum to discuss ... politics? Isn't that kind of like going to a political forum to discuss modeling?

I tried hard to segregate what I read in the OT forum from my posting on modeling, and it mostly worked, but it's just easier and better if the forum simply be about modeling, something we can all agree on. You know, that tanks are the most worthy model subjects -- the only worthy subjects, I mean.

Oh Yes Let Erase the Whole Thread because Ev1 builds military vehicles like Larry over there!!! Those who think this cancellation is Okay without consulting with the adult members of this forum.
If anything at least ban any sort of political debate!! They put so much thought into this for all the different types of modelers out there, to delete the whole Forum Topic!!

I think it a disgraceful and cowardly to do so with out a discussion or a chance to defend ourselves (the people who CHOSE to read the OT section)!! So here we are having " an impassioned argument with" Children who know what is right for all the hundreds of modelers apart of this COMMUNITY!!! Those who are apart of the Elite Kalmbach Publishing Co. up in Waukesha,WI will be sure to steer us in the proper direction and set a wonderful example for those that use to really enjoy this forum!!! Sorry that all us that think for ourselves and have opinions on World News are too childish to grace your presence!! I too shall bow away from this stifling site!! I don't feel comfortable having to second quess everything I write!! " Can I post this, Lawence? Can I post that!! What If they disagree with my god given right to think for myself and actually form my own opinion instead of kowtowing down before those who claim they know the way down the righteous path and If I choose not to!! I will be sure to burn in hell!!
I hope one of those "moderators" out there can comprehend some of the sarcasm and attempts in vain to enlighten your own way of thinking I am using!! Maybe there might be a chance where you could even invision yourself in a modellers shoes who doesn't know any thing about military vehicles, planes, ships and so forth!! This modellers deals in Classic Automobiles and dabbles in Figurine work!! I don't have anything pertinent to say in most of the modeling subjects other then general issues!! So I read them all anyway in an attempt to learn & when I get to the bottom of the page, I enjoy haveing a good laugh and stimulating conversion with a wonderful bunch of men!!! All of which have a sense of humor!! FSM where is your sense of humor, logic, rationality, and fairness? Those OT subjects stimulated my brain waves!! Made me think and laugh!! If the administators have a problem with sharing brilliant ideas and enjoying themselves at the same time!! I Find Every One Of You GUILTY OF HYPOCRISY!!!! That conclusion has been proven true just by your own "FORUM POLICY"!!!!
Kelley G.

QUOTE: Originally posted by lilBEAR Can I post that!! What If they disagree with my god given right to think for myself and actually form my own opinion instead of kowtowing down before those who claim they know the way down the righteous path and If I choose not to!! I will be sure to burn in hell!! I think you are confusing your right to think for yourself with a supposed right to post whatever you want to here. Let me explain something to you. God did not give you the right to post whatever you want on the FSM message boards. FSM gave you the right to post messages on their message board, and they have the right to regulate what can be discussed here in their sole discretion. Query, where do people get it in their heads that they have the right to say and do whatever they want, whenever they want? Reply Edit Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:04 PM No I said God gave me the right of free will and you must use logical thinking to be able to have free will!!!! At least I thought those that are so offended can understand that sometimes things come out the wrong way!! So I meant to write think for myself and have free will instead!!! Who are you to judge, MR. Dunn? I didn't say I have a right to post what ever I want!! I have a right to my opinions due to free will and the intelligence to think for myself which god had bestowed upon all of us....... So I thought? But hypocrisy is foul and I can smell your aura of supremacy and it's shame you have to waste your time fighting for nothing, while I'm fighting for what I believe in!! Obviously everything you believe isn't correct, just as I make mistakes too!! So let's stick with discussion about the OT section being removed instead of conducting your personal attacks on me!!! Your fine with OT being gone and I am not!! So what? Well, because that my friend, is part of the problem!! Frivolous Responses are not permitted neither are personal attacks!! So you see, You yourself are part of the problem!! "Query, where do people get it in their heads that they have the right to say and do whatever they want, whenever they want?" Quoted By Larry Dunn You need to take a look at your self before you judge others!!! Have a beautiful day, my fellow modeller!!!! Cheers!!! Kelley Reply Edit Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by lilBEAR No I said God gave me the right of free will and you must use logical thinking to be able to have free will!!!! Excuse me, but I quoted you verbatim. QUOTE: At least I thought those that are so offended can understand that sometimes things come out the wrong way!! So I meant to write think for myself and have free will instead!!! Who are you to judge, MR. Dunn? "Judge?" I'm responding to your comments. You weren't shy about posting your opinions on the FSM team, were you? Apparently, according to you, they have irreparably damaged Western Civilization. So, who was judging here? Further down in your message, you accuse me of hypocrisy but I'm not certain you understand what that word means. Here's an example of hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is claiming that a company that removes an OT board on a forum it finances is "disgraceful and cowardly," but then becoming hysterical when someone points out how bizarre some of your points are. Anyway, what difference does it make whether you meant to write "think for yourself" or "free will?" Can you help me to understand why you think that FSM's control of content on its forums somehow infringes on your right to think for yourself, or your free will? QUOTE: I didn't say I have a right to post what ever I want!! I have a right to my opinions due to free will and the intelligence to think for myself which god had bestowed upon all of us....... So I thought? And that makes your point different ... how? QUOTE: while I'm fighting for what I believe in!! And that is ... ? QUOTE: So let's stick with discussion about the OT section being removed instead of conducting your personal attacks on me!!! How about your ceasing your very odd and uncalled-for personal attacks on the people who provide us with this interesting and free modeling forum? Or let's just narrow it to this. I'll help you as much as I can. Why do you think your right to think as you want, or form your own opinions or exercize your free will (or however you want to phrase it) is somehow connected to a hobby message board? QUOTE: You need to take a look at your self before you judge others!!! Have a beautiful day, my fellow modeller!!!! See, here's a classic example of what I was discussing before. And now I'm at it again, aren't I? This really is like trying to carry on a debate with a puppy. Reply Edit fightnjoe Member since September 2011 Posted by fightnjoe on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:37 PM i hate to say this. this type of argument is what caused the demise of the ot forum. the flame wars do neither side any good. remember this, you have an opinion, another has a different opinion, let us agree to disagree. do not lower yourselves to a flame war. joe Veterans, Thank You For Your Sacrifices, Never To Be Forgotten Where you can find me: Workbench on FaceBook  Google Plus  YouTube Reply Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:00 PM Exactly, I wished the man a nice day and he has to come back with his first quote about being verbatim but of course he didn't add the second sentence to that quote where I said I made a mistake and it came out wrong!! Trying to find a common ground between myself and MR Dunn!! Then his second quote lies about me completely saying I called him a hypocrite which I did not do at all!! This is how a quote works " Hypocrisy is Foul" That's what I said and I didnot direct it to you!! I posted a response to the thread forum and this guy is telling me I am confused!!! I agree with you fully FightnJoe!! I have a right to my opinion as well as MR Dunn!! So I shared it!! Now he has to take it to another level that has been the cause of this problem in the first place!! Please start setting an example in stead of having to proof the you are so very intelligent and that your way is the right way!! As for my last quote I wrote "Obviously everything you believe isn't correct, just as I make mistakes too!! No one is perfect!!! Not even you Sir!! Now once again!! I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening and sleep well!!! Farewell!!! Oh yeah If I didn't answer a question of yours it's because I didn't even read every thing you wrote!! Kelley G. P.S. I believe the moderators who has every single members E-mail address could have sent a survey or at least a warning to it's members!!! I'm trying to see some chivalrous action take place but some people in this world need to tell others what to do, because many follow blindly!! While others demand the role to give the orders!! I choose to observe and make up my own decision & I feel as a member of FSM I have been cheated!! P.S.S If anyone would care to comment to me personally!! Please take it to E-mail to spare my friends here at the forum from such stress!!! This is suppose to be a place for adults to converse!! I stick by my opinion still because I thought about it first and is what works for me!! So be it if your is different!! Talk about it!! No more debating aloud MR. Dunn!! Isn't that what you implied when you said "WISELY DONE, FSM" 3 Posts previous? Cheers!!! Kelley Reply Edit M1abramsRules Member since June 2003 Posted by M1abramsRules on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:20 PM it's a shame when we have a flame war on the topic brought about by them....... I hate to tell you this kelley, but there are more than just adults on this forum......... I know of plenty of young people on here still in their teens. including me........ Reply Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:37 PM Abrams, I understand that completely that's why there are moderators!! I have a new IM buddy who is only 14 that I met on another modeling forum!! The OT topic had nothing to do with corrupting a child!! And if their was a post the was offensive to child or just out of bad taste it would have been deleted!! Not the whole thread!!! And now to just delete a whole section with no warning f0r the adults or younger members of the forum!!! Just goes to show they don't really care much for any of their members!!! Young or Old!! I respect your response!! But this is not a flame war ( if you would like to blame me to make yourself feel better, feel free to do so!!) I had simply stated my opinion just as you had!! So are you apart of a flame war now too? I wouldn't say that about you!! It's clear where you stand and that's fine!! So for all of you that chose your stance, leave me and my stance alone!! "People are people" so why should this be? Cheers!!! Kelley Reply Edit JCon Member since March 2003 From: Northeast Washington State Posted by JCon on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:38 PM I believe we have the right as Kelley has posted above to take our discussions that would be concidered offensive or frivolous to our individual e-mails or perhaps on the messenger services we all seem to use each day... all it takes is to list your address for either or both on you personal page or in your signiture for your posts and we can abide by FSM policy and still use this site for the intended purpose of gleaning the info we need for our hobby pursuits and sharing our knowledge of the modeling subjects with those in need! We all need to take a look at ourselves and ask what brought us here in the first place? Is that need being met? If so then why are so many just pulling up stakes and running away with their tails between their legs? I hope you will take a good look at what it is you want out of this forum and then decide to stay and make it a better place for all! Thanks for listening... as for me and my hobby we intend to stay here! Happy Modeling, Joe Favorite Quote: It's what you learn after you know it all that counts! Reply Anonymous Member since November 2005 Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:48 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by M1abramsRules it's a shame when we have a flame war on the topic brought about by them....... And that is my que to put this thread to rest and move it to "Suggestions and Feedback". Everybody's had a chance to deposit their $.02, and I've tried to answer the outstanding questions at the end of the other version of this thread that was running in Odd-n-Ends. If you have more questions or comments, feel free to drop me an e-mail. Reply Edit 12 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. 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