Group Builds - Revisited

QUOTE: Originally posted by djmodels1999 What are the chances of the 'average' or 'dedicated' Mr (or Mrs) Aircraft builder (or AFV builder) noticing what could be an interesting, different, eye-opening GB in the 'left-over' GB Forum..? If there's nothing in there to bring him (her) there in the first place, why would he (she) bother at all..?

What happened to the compromise?

Do we have to refer to it as the 'left-over' forum? Makes me hungry.

Seriously...I don't have an answer to that last question. If the 'average' or 'dedicated' Aircraft builder isn't going to venture out of the Aircraft forum on their own, there isn't much we can do. Even with the current setup, we still have to get them out of the Aircraft forum and into the GB forum. Once they're there, we can't even guarantee they will click on any of the other non-aircraft thread.

If moving the group builds back into their respective modeling subject forums increases participation within their respective subject forums and makes things easier for those participating, I'm for it. It's my opinion that the number of members who would benefit from such move would outweigh the number of members who might "potentially" find themselves possibly interested in a GB for another modeling subject than that which they currently participate. (Did I say that right? )

Good discussion, keep it going so it doesn't look like I'm conversing with myself here.

BTW...you're right, forgot the torches!! How silly of me.

Its just as easy clicking on the Aircraft forum as clicking on the group build forum
were all together at FSM, so it is like the mag

lets not force anyone to go through Aircraft,Armour,Sci-fi or anything else they dont want to. that sometimes turns peaple away

I was thinking about this and think I have discovered 2 possible problems:
1.) Too many GB's
2.) Too many finished GB's left in the indivudal forums.

Now we can't control how many GB's are started or wanted so here is a possible solution.

First move the GB's back to the indivudal forums but not make them sticky.
When a GB is finished it should be moved to some form of backup/graveyard forum where it could be referenced in the future.

That way only the current GB stay on top and only active GB are in the forums.

How about it??

MM, I think what you are proposing would discourage participation and lure people away from the site altogether.

Because there's so much traffic here, so many new posts every day, the GBs that are not as 'wealthy' in terms of members and posts, yet remain active, will quickly disappear into page 3, 4 or worse. How often do you go to page 3, 6 or 9 of any particular forum?

If not seen, they'll soon be forgotten, and will only re-appera every other day (if you are lucky) for a quick 'breather' at the top before disappearing again quickly due to the high number of unrelated posts. Again as an example, I'll take the (my) Aerobatic Team GB, or the French Armor pre-1940 GB (to which I participate), both of them featuring new posts only occasionaly. At least in the Forum GB, they'll stay within the first two pages; put back into their genre forums, they'll disappear.

However, in the Armor and particularly the aircraft forum, the first page would still remain littered (it's not a good word, really!) with very active GBs, such as the 1/35 Tiger GB or the Pz II GB, the Pz I GB, the F-14 GB,... You'll surely remember the fuss we had not that long ago when GBs were basically the only thing one could see on first pages. Sticky or not, there are a fairly large numbers of GB that will remain at or very near to the top for months at a time (remember too that a GB such as the PzI GB is not starting until the summer, yet it's been featuring a the top of the Armor GB since its creation a few weeks ago... So for those who do not like or are not interested in, say German armor, it's not going to be a pleasant sight every time they log in...

Separate GB forums for each or nearly each genre is a decent solution, but for the sake of conviviality, camaradeship and open-mindedness, surely, a single GB Forum can't be beaten!

Even if we went ahead with only a couple of new Aircraft GB and AFV GB forums, how long before we have Helicopter modelers requesting their own GB Forum (as they did with the helico forum when it was split from the Aircraft forum)..? Potentially, that's a large number of new forums... You'll soon need two screens to see them all in one go!

Is it really unpleasant to see the Tiger build at the top of the page? I didn't realize it caused djmodels such discomfort. And yet he is wearing 2 badges form group build that haven't started yet. I am not trying to cause trouble, but it just seems ironic. This also could be "unplesant" for some to see. especially after the debates we have had regarding Badges and when to post them.

The Tiger thread is a very lively and informative thread, IMHO, and I am glad that Mr. Voss moved it back. After this discussion, I can honestly say that it was a matter of wishing to be informed before it was yanked into the abyss know as the Group Build Forum. That and my own ignorance and paranoia.

I Guarantee, promise, swear that I will never start a group build thread in the Armor forum for fear of displeasing those that find it "Unpleasant".

Again, my apologies for all this mess.

Ted

Ted, you took this the wrong way. I'm not at all against GBs in the main forums altogether. As far as I'm concerned, with participation in over 18 GB right now or in the near future, it would not bother me the least! In fact it would make it easier, maybe! I'm talking about some people who in the past have complained about so many GBs 'cluttering' the first pages of each main forums. This is why the GB forum was created in the first place. I have nothing against your particular GB, and in fact I do look at it times to times, even if I do not participate actively because I'm not into larger scales at all (yet). Indeed your GB is very interesting, if only in terms of info it provides on various kits and the Tiger itself.

So, please do not go thinking I'm part of a crusade against you or any GB. I on the other hand find what you call the Abyss a most useful tool and it has become my favourite forum... I like its melting pot effect and cringe at touch at the ideas that some of my fellow modelers will not at all entertain the notion of modeling something a bit different or think that all other modelers only have a single narrow-minded interest. Don't you think the Tger GB could interest someone who builds cars or Star Wars stuff..?

As to the badges, would you want me to display the 25-30 odd badges of the GBs I've participated in? I use the sig as a way to advertise some (not all) of the GB I'm involved in. The majority of those are those I launched myself. The others are badges and GBs I feel need to be encouraged and promoted. You may have noticed I'm a big fan of the MAD concept...

djmodels1999.

I hear what you are saying, but I see the reverse situation.

Looking at the forums now I see more and more members ONLY participating in GB and not posting much in their respective forums.
If, lets say, the armor or aircraft forum does not get much traffic it won't attract new subscribers to the forum.

For me the solution would be as described, bring the GB back to the indivdual forums but at the same time also maintain good housekeeping.
As for GB disappearing to page x and y, no problem if you subscribe to them that way you get a notification in your e-mail when they change.

Alternatively you could also bookmark the indivudal builds on your PC.

Just my thoughts naturally.

Man, what's with all this personal offense? I don't mean to bi***, but a lot of people on this forum are complaining and whining and taking a HUGE personal offense to some of the things being said. Maybe we can realize that we can't ALL get what we want.

As to the issue at hand. I can see the purpose of having a GB forum, such as exists now. Don't take it the wrong way tediam, but I think ALL GB's, including your Tiger GB should be there. What's so special about yours to have it treated any differently. If people trully did have an interest, they wouldn't mind the extra minute it takes to surf over to another section to view the thread, instead of crying that it's not the first thread in the first forum they should happen to come by.
I was happy with the state of GB's before they were moved to the GB thread, but admittedly, this does clear up space quite a bit, and is a much better option. Granted, I'd say that participation in GB's has seemed to drop. There are many more GB's happening, but each one seems to have less participation than before. The only thing I strongly disagree with is with Model Maniac's ideas, as I find putting any of those into effect would be a good way to elminate what participation is left.
GBs are an integral part of this community, and throwing them on a backlog somewhere in the boonies of this forum would be a bad idea. Instead of throwing some half-@$$ed, but good intentioned, quick fix, as has happened in the past on this forum, leave it as is, until a GOOD solution is reached. Going back to "the way it used to be" isn't going to solve anything, and it's probably as good as it's going to get for a bit, so until some nice presents itself, I say just leave it be.

Just one more thing though about the Tiger GB being in the Armor Forum... Again, I repeat for the reasons stated above that I do not have anything against it ot it being there. However, the GB Forum was created to get all GB under one roof, out of the way of those who may find it objectionable to have GBs in the main forums (I was not very keen on the idea at first!), yet some GBs, including the Tiger GB and the Mad Allied Day (to which I participated) were created and kept in the armor forum...

While I'm thinking about it, though, it is interresting this only seems to happen in the armour forum..! Quite curious!

Anyway, I, like many other friends in here, have followed the rules of the board and have ran or are running GBs in the GB forum. Granted, I'll propose a GB in the main forum: aircraft forum for the Mad Fokker Day for instance, or more to the point, Mad Leopard Week currently in the armor forum, but this will be moved to the GB forum once I have gathered enough enthusiasts and momentum (this is where the badge may or may not help - I don't know, I do not have the time to research this, but I like to think it may help!).

You are all correct and I honestly don't care anymore. I am truly sorry for all this fuss. I wish I could turn back the clock and never had been upset about the GB getting moved. I was wrong and should have followed the rules. Please accept my apologies and rest assured there will never be another GB started by me in this or any other forum on FSM. I also don't care about the badges. I am realitively new here and should look to those with 2000 plus posts for guidence on this and other forums. My exuberance and passions for modelling and pretty much everything in life gets my mouth (or fingers typing) running before I can sit and rationalize what is really going on. Life is too short to sit in front of this screen and worry about where a certain thread has gotten off to. I should be more worried about working at my bench having fun and enjoying this great hobby. I don't know what else to say.

Ted

Ted

--------------------

Zokissom are you talking about my idea or Model maniac who never poster on this thread, 2 very different posters.

I put my suggestion just as much forward as every else has done, in the end it is up to the moderators of FSM to decide what happens not me, your nor any other poster.

IMHO, the drop in participation of GB's is NOT due to them being moved to a separate forum but due to the fact that there are too MANY GB's happening at the same time.
Some members have said openly that all they are now doing is participating solely in GB's.

Granted a few forums have seen a drop in membership bit those got few GB's to none to start with. Simply look at the Sci-Fi forum, rather smallish and I think they got 4 or 5 GB's going with more lined up.
Don't know about you guys but more than 3 GB's at the same time are more than I can handle.

Model Museum, you're right, your posts are the ones I was referring to, and thanks for at least posting SOME idea of what should be done
Also, your points in the last posts are VERY good ones, especially when it comes to the fact that there really are far too many GB's with not enough participation. I feel stupid as I probably have had my share of encouraging that. It seems all it takes now to get a GB started is the willingness to host one, regardless whether there seems to be a lot of interest or not...

QUOTE: I am realitively new here and should look to those with 2000 plus posts for guidence on this and other forums.

You know, you're wrong there. Don't assume because someone has a higher post count than you that they are right. It merely means they spend more time in front of the screen. BUt I do think you got the most important point down:

QUOTE: Life is too short to sit in front of this screen and worry about where a certain thread has gotten off to

Ted, you are over-reacting (again!) ;-) We need peopple like you in here, with ideas and the drive to make them happen. And do not consider us '5000 posts and more' members as gods either. We make mistakes, I made mistakes and not that long ago, I did here something that irritated some other members. I changed things and hopefully I've learned from my mistakes.

So, please do keep caring, posting and launching in new and maybe crazy ideas because that's what this site needs. Life!

Now, MM has touched something there! There are way many more GBs than ever in the past and yes, participation is usually counted with the fingers of both, sometimes one, hand. But that does not bother me that much. I see this as an expression of our creativity and willingness to share ideas and experience. Quality versus quantity, maybe..!?

On a personal note, though, I'm glad Zok (who will remember my earlier offence!) has a pretty similar idea than mine! Hard to 'fight' alone!

I just wanted to touch on something real quick.

Some people do start GBs in the GB forum, but many don't. In many cases it was Lawrence or myself who would move them into the GB forum. With Lawrence having moved on, and my absence, these weren't being moved. So GBs started outside the GB forum were left where they were. People who weren't here when the GB forum was started wouldn't be aware of the reasons behind the GB forum.

Fast forward to today...

We have many more group builds, along with completed group builds. What may have been a good solution at the time, now might not be the right solution.

Well, may as well jump in with both feet. I think I was one of those that didn't like the first page being taken up with the "stickys" for certain threads, especially if I didn't have an interest in any of them. I like the GB forum as a place to come to find those threads and see what is new in all of them, that's how I got involved in the A-10 and Cargo Truck GBs. Never know when I may decide to try a Sci/Fi or Ship because someone else wants to suggest a GB.

Now, my idea to "improve" the GB forum. I'd like to think that keeping them in one container and then having seperate sub-containers for each "branch" within the GBs would work best. Armor, Aircraft, General, would have their own place, and then if Ships, Sci/Fi, Helos wanted, they could be added eventually.

Then again, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first, nor last, time for that.

Actually Lemon, that's kind of what I was thinking of. We have separate subgroupings right now for different forums. Create a GB grouping, then have an armor, aircraft, ship, whatever GB forum. I think that would be a good way to throw some organization into the mess right now.

QUOTE: On a personal note, though, I'm glad Zok (who will remember my earlier offence!) has a pretty similar idea than mine! Hard to 'fight' alone!

Never fear, I'm always here

I vote for a change in the groups builds, aligning them by subject.

I also would like to see some method of hosting the completed builds. Leqve the in-progress stuff in the group build sections. I’m still a novice at this and having the completed builds as a reference would by very valuable. I think another forum already does this?

I liked the old way with GB in the topic forum.
Then it changed & I now like the GB forum better.

GB's should not be stickied in a topic forum -- major annoyance.
OTOH
GB's are not posted as frequently/regularily (ie folks are building not chatting) and thus tend to fall (way) down the mesage list in a topic forum.

Suggest folks arrange the build in the topic forum, then have it moved over to the GB forum a week or two before start date. Remove from the GB forum any stray discussions, etc.

I like all GB together. There are many I can't participate in but would like to see the work; there are things to learn, etc, etc. Leave the topic forums for general discussion.

The only disadvantage to splitting topic & GB I found was if I asked a question on my project in the GB thread, only those reading the thread would see it. So I have to go back to topic forum & ask -- little extra work, but no big deal really.

I do agree we need a place for old GB's to go, so the finished work can be displayed. A few GB moderators take this on themselves, but the location of that info tends to slip away because there is no formal place here to record it.

John

Just some comments from a guy who has neither started nor participated in any GBs in all his years here at FSM:
I don't care where they go.
They certainly don't bother me floating around in the regular forums. I would, however, be much more liable to check out a GB or two if they were in the regular forums, as I never ventured into the dedicated GB forum.

If you are involved in a GB, I don't see what the problem is about having all the GBs in a special forum. If you participate, you should know where to go.
I would imagine, however, that participation would increase tremendously if GBs were in the regular forums, as many more people would see them (as alluded to above).

But to be honest, I don't really understand all the hubbub...what's an extra scroll or a click or two matter in the grand scheme of things? We're working on computers, here...not digging ditches! The manual labor is miniscule...
Sad times it is when the threat of a few extra clicks causes such controversy!

Yeah, I know, this dopey post hasn't contributed much (if anything) to the discussion, but I just thought I'd toss in my two yen...or did I actually make a withdrawal??

QUOTE: But to be honest, I don't really understand all the hubbub...what's an extra scroll or a click or two matter in the grand scheme of things? We're working on computers, here...not digging ditches! The manual labor is miniscule... Sad times it is when the threat of a few extra clicks causes such controversy!

You know, IMHO you hit the nail on the head with this. It really sums it up nicely. I think that it's quite a contribution, the fact that you are able to illustrate the point so well, considering you don't even participate in GBs.

Brian, it's not so much about the clicking that the 'argument' is about. It's about the apparent mess that GBs leaves wherever they are... We all realise I hope that stickies in their respective forums do not work, in terms of letting non-GB users see what's going on here! The apparent mess in the dedicated GB forum is somewhat inevitable... But leaving them float in their respective forums DO bring the question of a few more clicks. They may be a few seconds away, yes, but I'm sure 99% of the users here do not venture much into page 3 (unless they have missed a day in here) or lower down the scale... The GB I am looking for may only be on page 3, but I do not that. It may have slipped on page 5 if I've not been able to come here for a whole week end.

Computers and the Net have made us more impatient than ever. That will not change I think, at a time when every computer hardware and software manufacturer, internet providers are looking at ways to make things yet faster.

Someone rightly suggested to activate notification of new post in the particular threads. I had not thought of that. It may be worth trying it out, although I can see, at the rate I'm going (sooo many interesting threads and GBs in here!), an alarming increase in mails... This may not after all be any easier. Many more clicks..!

Hi, as for the location of the GB-forums, I'm happy with watever solution comes up, but I do have another question....

New Forum Software ??? Does that meen that we lose everything that's on the forum right now (including our posts-count) ?

QUOTE: Originally posted by DanCooper New Forum Software ??? Does that meen that we lose everything that's on the forum right now (including our posts-count) ?

We won't lose everything. Although I think we're going to ditch the rankings. But that's another discussion for another time.

The ranking..! Oooh! I've got an idea!

0 star: Scale Modeler
1 Star: Chatty
2 Stars: Voluble
3 Stars: Loquacious
4 Stars: Garrulous
5 Stars: Babble-mouth

;-)

QUOTE: Originally posted by djmodels1999 Brian, it's not so much about the clicking that the 'argument' is about. It's about the apparent mess that GBs leaves wherever they are...

Yes, I understood what the reasons were...just can't understand the "why!"

I don't think Stickies or Floaties or any of it is a "mess" at all, but that's just my opinion. When I said I "didn't care," I meant I don't mind where the GBs are, not that I didn't care about the current controversy. Sorry if it sounded that way!

I hope a decision can be reached that satisfies all folks who are concerned with this situation.

By the way, I like the ranking "Garrulous!"

yes, but it's too late, you'll never get it! LOL You Babble-Mouth!

I'll dive in and say I am totally happy with the GB's exactly where they are. I don't find them a mess and although I ony participate in a couple I enjoy diving into any old one to see the posted photos and the discussion that goes on. If they have to be moved, keep them all together.

QUOTE: I could create a category for Group Builds and then a forum for Airplanes, Armor, and one for all other genre

I personally would think that this is the best idea...