too much superdetailing?

I think the list should break down the MSRP or out of pocket cost per each item. If a company supplies a "gift" or review kit, then the MSRP is used. This would be most useful for the articles written by FSM employees, such as the Vette Matt build or the Tank that Jeff recently had on the cover, rather than the super detailed, scratchbuilt kits that are shown occasionally. If you're not interested then your eye will automatically skip over that part, if you ARE interested then forewarned is forearmed and the information MAY be helpful. IMHO more information is better than less. I look to FSM for inspiration and information. My budget dictates whether or not I buy the Tamiya Spitfire, or the Revellogram one. Either kit (hopefully) can end up looking good, and I have no less enjoyment building the Revellogram.

Or perhaps including the price(s) would be considered too much superdetailing?

Bgrigg wrote:

I think the list should break down the MSRP or out of pocket cost per each item. If a company supplies a "gift" or review kit, then the MSRP is used. This would be most useful for the articles written by FSM employees, such as the Vette Matt build or the Tank that Jeff recently had on the cover, rather than the super detailed, scratchbuilt kits that are shown occasionally.

Okay, MSRP it is...(However, my own opinion is that if you're paying full manufacturer's MSRP for a kit, you're not being a smart shopper...no offense intended)

However, now comes another question (and I'm just looking for opinions here, not trying to be smart). I know that many FSM employees, FSM contributors, and other modelers (like myself) have a substantial stockpile of kits and supplies. If the masses want a "price breakdown" for relatively new kits, that's fairly simple. However, if the basic kit or even the aftermarket accessories are 5, 10, or 15 years old and potentially out of production, what MSRP gets used? The cost of the parts originally, the cost of the parts today, or for those items that are OOP, an estimate of the MSRP?

Just trying to clarify...

This is plain silly. Besides currency exchange rate problems you get into regional pricing on some stuff and what a guy on the western Pacific rim paid for an AFV Club or Pit-Road kit may be far off from what someone in the US or Europe will pay for the same because the MSRP changes by region. Don't forget the VAT mess in Europe either, I do a fair bit of business with two ship companies over there and always have to ask what the non-EU price is. Even worse, I often can't tell you what I spent on a model for a number of reasons....model show buying usually means cheap, I worked in a hobby shop part time for years and got 30% discounts off the tagged price, I have done some very large swap deals, my stash has so many kits and aftermarket goodies I couldn't begin to figure out what I paid for something 6 years ago, I've bought literally boxes of stuff from estate sales dirt cheap, I almost never actually pay money for ship related stuff since I usually opt to take part of my research fees in goods.

As for who likes to build what....that's a matter of taste and no amount of discussion will ever clear it up.

Personally I like some basic builds and I like some of the insane superwhizbangknockyoursocksintonextweek builds......what I loathe are drag queens.....you know, the figures so overpainted Rommel looks like he's wearing burlesque makeup and aircraft so over weathered and overshaded that they look more like renderings of architectural drawings. This applies to all modelling genres, I just picked the two most prevalent.

Time....hmmmmmmm..........for a local level IPMS first place winner I built a Tamiya 1/48 ME-262 built OOB with aftermarket decals.....total build time 16 hours....not 16 hours of labor because mixed into that 16 hours was 8 hours of sleep, an hour or two of TV time with the wife and an hour of caffienation and surfing the web.....and not one dab of filler on the model.....total cost 30% off MSRP. Now consider an intermediate level Gold Medal AMPS National winner (DML M-46 Patton with lots of PE, AFV Club tracks and scratchbuilt bits, ad nauseum with a wild paint scheme...see GSM 2004 page 23 model J) probably took me the better part of 150 hours labor.....total cost I estimate at $120. Classic Warships' North Carolina will probably take me 40-60 hours (most of which will be masking and demasking the decks and Ms12mod camo scheme), there will be no aftermarket parts to that one.....monetary cost to me $0 unless you want to count the base which will probably cost about $10-15......Trumpeter's North Carolina will be well over 100 hours (my guess is 150 or so) most of which is fixing stupid engineering and the minor accuracy errors that show enough to notice, the main & secondary turrets, 40mm's, 20mm's, propellors, boats, anchors, anchor chains, masts and directors will all be replaced with aftermarket parts because I simply do not want to dork around fixing them....don't forget to add PE.....cost to me monetarily is again $0.....even though the stacks need to be replaced the surgery required isn't worth the hassle.

I don't mind listing all the stuff I used that didn't come in the box, including specific paint colors and taking a SWAG at total labor time. I'm not going to attempt to figure out monetary costs. Another thing nobody has yet mentioned, or at least not clearly....what is your time worth TO YOU? If I were actually paying money for the Trumpeter North Carolina and all the AM parts I'd still do it that way because MY TIME is worth more to me than the cost of the parts. What I make and what my budget is do not eneter into that equation, if I can't afford it today I'll skip a pizza or something and afford next week or next month.

I agree that paying MSRP is not being a smart shopper, but it shows the worst case scenario, not the best case. I would like to know what the kit in the article is going to cost me before I go to the store. When people pull kits out of the stash, especially old obsolete kits, than that information replaces the cost. A newer kit that's in production has a MSRP that is valid, an out of production kit is listed as that. That way I don't waste my time trying to find a rare kit, unless I'm willing to search for it and pay a premium!. I'm not looking for a hard and fast rule, just an approximation of what went into the build.

I fully expect a $200 kit with another $200 worth of AM parts to end up looking fantastic. My goodness, who would spend that kind of money on something that didn't?

What I'm trying to get is somebody with a lot of skill (say Matt Usher) can take a simple kit (his Snap-tite Vette) and turn it into something fabulous (which he did). The article would have been enhanced by the disclosure that the kit was $11, the PE was $13 and there was a minor amount of additional aftermarket items already "in stock" that went towards creating that particular show stopper.

This information may not impress a modeler with decades of experience, but it sure impresses the heck out of me, with my novice skills. I think FSM has a mutli-fold purpose: to inform, inspire and educate. The cost of building is informational and educational. The build itself is inpirational.

Ron Smith wrote:

This is plain silly.

Other people's opinions are silly?

Besides currency exchange rate problems you get into regional pricing on some stuff and what a guy on the western Pacific rim paid for an AFV Club or Pit-Road kit may be far off from what someone in the US or Europe will pay for the same because the MSRP changes by region.

Actually the MSRP remains mostly the same region for region. Currency exchange shouldn't even factor in the equation, the vast majority of subscribers are Americans. New Products and Workbench Reviews already show the MSRP for those respective products. I don't see the English subscribers complaining about that.

Don't forget the VAT mess in Europe either, I do a fair bit of business with two ship companies over there and always have to ask what the non-EU price is.

For those who don't know, VAT is Value Added Tax, and again that shouldn't factor into the equation. Taxes are life's little miseries and you deal with them with every other product you buy.

Even worse, I often can't tell you what I spent on a model for a number of reasons....model show buying usually means cheap, I worked in a hobby shop part time for years and got 30% discounts off the tagged price, I have done some very large swap deals, my stash has so many kits and aftermarket goodies I couldn't begin to figure out what I paid for something 6 years ago, I've bought literally boxes of stuff from estate sales dirt cheap, I almost never actually pay money for ship related stuff since I usually opt to take part of my research fees in goods.

This has been dealt with. In current production items get the current MSRP, OOP gets listed as OOP. This isn't what you paid for the kit, it's what the next person might expect to pay for the kit.

As for who likes to build what....that's a matter of taste and no amount of discussion will ever clear it up.

Agreed, opinions vary. No matter how silly!

Personally I like some basic builds and I like some of the insane superwhizbangknockyoursocksintonextweek builds......what I loathe are drag queens.....you know, the figures so overpainted Rommel looks like he's wearing burlesque makeup and aircraft so over weathered and overshaded that they look more like renderings of architectural drawings. This applies to all modelling genres, I just picked the two most prevalent.

Also agreed.

Time....hmmmmmmm..........for a local level IPMS first place winner I built a Tamiya 1/48 ME-262 built OOB with aftermarket decals.....total build time 16 hours....not 16 hours of labor because mixed into that 16 hours was 8 hours of sleep, an hour or two of TV time with the wife and an hour of caffienation and surfing the web.....and not one dab of filler on the model.....total cost 30% off MSRP. Now consider an intermediate level Gold Medal AMPS National winner (DML M-46 Patton with lots of PE, AFV Club tracks and scratchbuilt bits, ad nauseum with a wild paint scheme...see GSM 2004 page 23 model J) probably took me the better part of 150 hours labor.....total cost I estimate at $120. Classic Warships' North Carolina will probably take me 40-60 hours (most of which will be masking and demasking the decks and Ms12mod camo scheme), there will be no aftermarket parts to that one.....monetary cost to me $0 unless you want to count the base which will probably cost about $10-15......Trumpeter's North Carolina will be well over 100 hours (my guess is 150 or so) most of which is fixing stupid engineering and the minor accuracy errors that show enough to notice, the main & secondary turrets, 40mm's, 20mm's, propellors, boats, anchors, anchor chains, masts and directors will all be replaced with aftermarket parts because I simply do not want to dork around fixing them....don't forget to add PE.....cost to me monetarily is again $0.....even though the stacks need to be replaced the surgery required isn't worth the hassle. I don't mind listing all the stuff I used that didn't come in the box, including specific paint colors and taking a SWAG at total labor time. I'm not going to attempt to figure out monetary costs. Another thing nobody has yet mentioned, or at least not clearly....what is your time worth TO YOU? If I were actually paying money for the Trumpeter North Carolina and all the AM parts I'd still do it that way because MY TIME is worth more to me than the cost of the parts. What I make and what my budget is do not eneter into that equation, if I can't afford it today I'll skip a pizza or something and afford next week or next month.

Time is a relative thing, and if you want to include that fine, if not, also fine. My time is different from yours, what you can build in 2 hours is different from what I can build.

Again, what I'm wishing for is a reasonable expectation of cost to the next person in line.
You listed your Me 262 as 30% off MSRP. If you knew that, you also knew the MSRP. You show an estimation of cost for the Patton, that's interesting to know that! The two North Carolinas apparently showed up in your stash for free. Lucky you. What's the MSRP? What can I expect to pay? Why don't you want to inform that it cost $X to build? I find it baffling that people will research the proper color of seatbelts for a cockpit that can barely be seen once the canopy is in place, but won't research the cost.

Sure I can research the cost myself. I could also find out how to build models all by myself and not buy a magazine that I look to for information. I'm just asking for that magazine to provide ALL the information they can.

I agree that my income and my budget is my business. All I'm asking for is some forewarning that I shouldn't be buying that pizza!

Bgrigg wrote:

Ron Smith wrote: This is plain silly. Other people's opinions are silly?

No but about half of the issues raised are silly. Especially those relating to A's vs. B's taste when it comes to a modelling genre in a general modelling magazine.

Actually the MSRP remains mostly the same region for region. Currency exchange shouldn't even factor in the equation, the vast majority of subscribers are Americans. New Products and Workbench Reviews already show the MSRP for those respective products. I don't see the English subscribers complaining about that.

Not true with many Japanese or Taiwanese kits in their "local" markets. As for new products and workbench reviews FSM is supplied that info from the manufacturer.

This has been dealt with. In current production items get the current MSRP, OOP gets listed as OOP. This isn't what you paid for the kit, it's what the next person might expect to pay for the kit.

So it's a kit that is current production or was OOP but is now back inproduction, most likely the shrink wrap with price sticker is long gone by the time I actually get around to building it. Or I could quote the price sticker on the kit I bought 6-10 years ago which has since almost doubled in price (Tamiya M-3 Lee/Grant, M-3/5 Stuart, M-8 MHC....). It's a hobby and I generally ignore prices unless I'm building on commission which turns that build into business then and only then do I consider cost.

Time is a relative thing, and if you want to include that fine, if not, also fine. My time is different from yours, what you can build in 2 hours is different from what I can build.

My point exactly, we all value our time differently. I value my hobby time and my business time differently when building on commission. Part of that is if I screw up a hobby build it's my problem, if I screw up a commission build I have to fix it.

Again, what I'm wishing for is a reasonable expectation of cost to the next person in line. You listed your Me 262 as 30% off MSRP. If you knew that, you also knew the MSRP.

That doesn't mean I remember or even care what the MSRP was, I just know I bought it with my 30% employee discount.

You show an estimation of cost for the Patton, that's interesting to know that! The two North Carolinas apparently showed up in your stash for free. Lucky you. What's the MSRP? What can I expect to pay? Why don't you want to inform that it cost $X to build? I find it baffling that people will research the proper color of seatbelts for a cockpit that can barely be seen once the canopy is in place, but won't research the cost.

I don't specifically remember what I spent on the Patton but I do know the general price range for the items bought specifically for it. As for MSRP on the North Carolinas I don't know but I know the CW kit has had it's MSRP changed since I got mine. IIRC the Trumpeter MSRP is $130 but it's available online for around $90. It's less "lucky me" than the fact I took part of some fees in barter instead of money. As for informing people of the cost to build, I simpy don't care all that much about the cost to build when it's for my hobby and I don't really feel like knowing just how much money is in my stash either (especially I don't want my wife to know).

Sure I can research the cost myself. I could also find out how to build models all by myself and not buy a magazine that I look to for information. I'm just asking for that magazine to provide ALL the information they can.

And I can always go back to high stress job where figuring out ROI, costs of changes to design or processes, cost to repair vs. possible recovery of scrap value were all part of the day. Getting overly retentive about costs is not part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me.

I agree that my income and my budget is my business. All I'm asking for is some forewarning that I shouldn't be buying that pizza!

It's generally a safe bet that other than older DML tanks, Trumpeter tanks, 1/72 aircraft, 1/48 single piston engined fighter, most car kits, 1/35 figure sets, Revell-Monogram oldies and maybe half the 1/700 ships out there, you might want to consider skipping a pizza or two. If you're addicted to aftermarket, there is no hope of ever having pizza again....;)

"If you build it, they will come".  "If you make it, someone will buy it".  That has been the norm in this hobby for years.  Someone will always buy AM parts in the hope it will increase the looks of their basic kit. 

Case in point.  The Tamaya 1/32 scale F-16CJ.  It is one beautiful  looking kit.  I was fooled into thinking the Black Box cockpit was the only way to go.  Previews of the kit said the kit cockpit was rather basic and AM parts would make it look better.  After I received the BB cockpit, I wasn't that impressed.  The tub is the only thing I will use.  As it is, most of the detailing will not be visible once the model is completed.  The kit supplied instrument panel, stick, throttle, rudder pedals and seat are better detailed than the BB items I received.  It might be just the BB kit I received and other releases might be better detailed.  I could have saved the extra cost, if I had seen the item prior to purchase. 

If someone wants to take a $60.00 tank kit, buy super detailing items, which will jump the cost up to $150.00, then it is their money.  Who are they building for?   It may be how they complete all of their kits.  They want that extra detail.  You or I have no right to tell them otherwise.   I, on the other hand, will not want to buy a kit and double or triple the cost with AM parts.  The only thing is, these items are available and some builders will.  Do they feel they have to, or are they striving toward perfection?   They may feel they have to have the perfect kit in order to compete in contest or even hope in having their kit shown in FSM.

If I took a kit of the C-130, built it OOB, no added detail and submitted the article to FSM on my build.   At the same time they received the article on the AC-130H. submitted by John Vojtech, which was the cover story in the February issue.  Which one do you think would get published?  Which one would have more appeal to the readers?  The plane looking OOB or the super detailed one?  We all know the answer.   Readers would rather see super detailed models rather than the OOB.  They can build their own kit OOB but could only dream of completing a super detailed model that was shown.  It is what the readers want.   We have met the enemy, and it is us. 

The Trump 1/48 scale RA-5C is one fine looking model and I am told it can be built OOB and still look good.  I have that kit but will not build it because of the intakes.  You look down the intakes, all you see is big gapping holes, wheel well hump and the engine faces half hidden by the wheel well hump.  There is a lot of enpty space that can be seen.  The only way to correct it, is hope someone releases a set of intakes, or block off the intakes with a set of intake covers.  That may be the way I will go several years from now when I get around to building it.  Will it be super detailed?  No.  But I don't want it to look like a toy, as it would look now with the intake error.  Other builders may not care about it and others may go with all the AM parts available for the kit.  Again, it is up to the individual.  

I have the Trump 1/32 scale A-7E kit and will not be adding any AM parts to it, because IMHO none is needed.  I will more than likely go with AM decals, but that is all.  You can just bet in some future issue of FSM, this kit will be showcased.  It will be built with the AA wingfold, BB cockpit, CC wheel wells, DD landing gear, EE canopy, FF engines, GG flight controles, HH weapons load and II decals.  Here you take a $100 plus kit and add another $200 plus AM parts to it.  That is way above my budget.  Will some one do it?  Yes they will.  

I try to avoid the forum for the weekend and look what happens! :-)

With regards to FSM ignoring the new, incoming modelers, no, absolutely not. FSM has always catered to the broad-base of the hobby, that means the newcomer and the seasoned, grizzled veteran alike. I do believe that the average modeler is not as "average" as he once was, and that newcomers to the hobby have a much shorter learning curve than we did 30 thirty years ago.

Adding a "cost of project" list to the end of every story is not a decision I have the power to make, plain and simple. And with so many variables involved (those mentioned above), it would be problematic in my personal opinion. Many times, the authors don't include this information.

In many instances, aftermarket parts are hoarded for years and bits and pieces from multiple sets often end up in a project. I know this is the typical scenario in my builds, I'll use a part from this fret, something from the spares box, and some scratchbuilt stuff. Sometimes I'll turn a part on my lathe. For me to remember what I paid for, or where I obtained, a detail part, is nearly impossible. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday!! :-)

The resources section of the feature stories usually outline the components used in a project, and when a specific PE set or resin set is used, the author will usually list the specific part number in the story.

I guess the question I should ask is this,"How many of us duplicate the projects from the pages of the magazine?"

Obviously, if you read my T-34 story, for example, you'd know that I added a turned barrel and scratchbuilt panzerfaust screens using window screen and plastic stock. If you estimate that I used 2 packages of L-channel, one package of square stock, and some window screen, you'd guess somewhere between $5 and $7. I added telephone wire to the engine, and that was leftover from the construction of my house! Other than that, the model was built OOB.

But in the literal sense, I have hundreds of pieces of styrene and brass stock laying around, and the window screen was a scrap from a $2 replacement from a local hardware store. Chances are we've all got a screen that needs replacement somewhere in our homes! I saved the scraps and used them on my model. Does it help the reader to know that I didn't pay for the window screen?

I guess my point is, what do I include in the cost of the project? My Chopper II, my lathe, the weathering powders, the paint, and the airbrush and compressor? What items do we all take for granted we have, and do we include the consumables like paint and glue? I happen to categorize styrene and brass into that category as well.

What I hope happens, is that modelers read the article, get a general idea of what went into the project, and adapt it to their skills and resources.

I should also comment that I rarely jump into a project of any sort (modeling or otherwise) without doing additional research first.  For me, that's just part of the process, and sometimes, it's more enjoyable than actually building the model!

Jeff

Instant gratification? Well, I want Jeff Herne's skill and quality, I want it to cost $25 total and I want it now! (FOFL!!!!).

As an aside...what you see in FSM with my name on it comes from nearly 30 years of non-stop modeling. It stems from not having much of a social life when I was teenager, but mostly because I truly love the hobby and history in general.

I also had a mentor growing up that taught me how to fill seams, airbrush, and all the basics of the hobby. Since I came from a military family, I wasn't allowed to compromise on the model, because that would be considered a failure. Not exactly a great way to run your hobby, but it worked, especially now that no one is hassling me about my seams not being smooth enough!! :-)

I guess it all boils down to priorities, and what you're willing to put into your hobby. I know modelers that are doctors, highly successful executives, and highly-trained engineers and technicians. I can't come close to the level of work they do, but I build better models.  I can't hit a golf ball without breaking a car windshield, I can't surf, and when a paint brush touches canvas, it looks like Gumby when I'm done, even if it's a landscape!

The biggest obstacles to overcome when attempting to be a "superior" modeler (and I'm not saying that I am by any stretch), are patience and a willingness to learn. Treat every part of the kit as if it were the most important part of the model, and treat every part like it's the whole kit. A model should not be a single kit made up of parts. A model should be a collection of small kits assembled into a larger one.

As for me, well, I'm just going to keep working on my golf swing!!! :-)

Jeff

Both you and Ron make good points, and again I'm not saying don't build with AM parts. All I am looking for is a relative cost of the total build. That way I can decide to order AM bits or not. If a kit requires after market to correct deficiencies, then I would like to know that ahead of time and perhaps I'll give the kit a pass. I just feel an approximate cost, even if it's wrong, is better than no cost at all, which is definitely wrong.

PS love the Pogo quote, I miss Walt Kelly...

edit, see what happens when you take too long to post? Jeff comes along and rambles on for two whole posts worth...

Maybe I'll just have to pay more attention to the workbench reviews. They're mostly built OOB and have the price included... /edit

Ah come on now Bill,

You should know by now I can type for hours and not say anything!!! :-)

Jeff

Bgrigg wrote:

Both you and Ron make good points, and again I'm not saying don't build with AM parts. All I am looking for is a relative cost of the total build. That way I can decide to order AM bits or not. If a kit requires after market to correct deficiencies, then I would like to know that ahead of time and perhaps I'll give the kit a pass. I just feel an approximate cost, even if it's wrong, is better than no cost at all, which is definitely wrong. PS love the Pogo quote, I miss Walt Kelly... edit, see what happens when you take too long to post? Jeff comes along and rambles on for two whole posts worth... Maybe I'll just have to pay more attention to the workbench reviews. They're mostly built OOB and have the price included... /edit

I see your point.  If someone builds, say a F11F-1 Tiger and comments that in order to correct the vast problems,  you will have to buy this and this update for it, which will more than double the cost.  That gives me the option as to if I consider it worth the additional cost.   It is the only game in town at this time, but I just might take a rain check on it and hope someone releases a better kit later.   Fiction?  No, it is something I have done for many years.  I would love to have that aircraft in my collection but from what I have heard, it isn't worth it to me.  You on the other hand may say, "I have to have that kit for my collection along with the updated AM parts".  The result is only one bought the kit verses two, and two satisified model builders. 

Let me go see if Jeff has posted again.  Isn't he suppose to be at work?   

Houston we have CONTACT!

Berny I knew you would understand me!

It's a similar problem to a $12 Revellogram kit versus a $36 Tamiya kit. Do I spend three times as much for what I know is an excellent kit, or work three times (or more) harder on a marginal kit? Having built both I'll almost always opt for the better kit. My enjoyment comes from the build not the money savings.

Uhhh, Berny, making sure you fellows play nice is part of my job!! :-)

Commentary like this is helpful to everyone as long as it remains calm and productive. Usually, threads like these can turn into nasty flame wars that benefit no one. Thankfully, this hasn't been the case with this one.

This thread has provided a lot of useful insight and dialog. Hopefully, we can find ways to put it to good use!

Jeff

Bgrigg wrote:

Houston we have CONTACT! Berny I knew you would understand me! It's a similar problem to a $12 Revellogram kit versus a $36 Tamiya kit. Do I spend three times as much for what I know is an excellent kit, or work three times (or more) harder on a marginal kit? Having built both I'll almost always opt for the better kit. My enjoyment comes from the build not the money savings.

I am the same way.  I would rather spend the $36 and get a kit that gives me pleasure over a $12 kit that gives me a headach.  I am lucky that I can afford to go out and spend $100-$200 on a kit.  I don't always do it, because at times, I will say to my self, "Self.  Do you really want to spend that much on a kit you may not even build?"  If the kit really gets my interest, I will say "Yes." 

But when I do, I don't like the idea of spending anothet $100 for AM parts to get a half way good looking model out of it.  A good quality expensive kit should have all items included to produce a showcase model.  Just my openion.   

Bill,
I think we all got it,  it's just some were not into the cost/time thing being put on every build.
Seemed funny to me how a guy may spend an hour and two pages explaining every detail on a model for a contest, but just wants readers of a magazine to think they just threw it together one rainy day. Or not.
Me? I'm saving my pennies for a 1/350 resin kit of the USS Indianapolis, so Trumpeter can announce they will issue an injection kit for less than $50 shortly after.

Don

Don, I know the feeling.  I wanted to build a 1/32 scale hardwing F-4E, the one I was Crew Chief on at Eglin AFB during Linebacker I.  There were no hardwing F-4E's around, so I bought the Revell RF-4C and F-4E softwing.  I bashed the two together and made my own hardwing F-4E and what happens after I did major surgery on it?  Tamiya releases a hardwing F-4E.  Six months later a friend gives me, at no cost the Tamiya F-4E, because his grandson did not want to build it.       

I have a similar experience, although it didn't happen to me.

A good friend of mine (yes, I still have a few left) started working on a scratchbuilt 1/35 Sturmtiger about one year before the Tamiya kit was released. He worked on it diligently, and ended up with a great looking model.

The first show he brought it to was the first show on the East coast where every vendor had at least a case of the latest "must have" kit, the Tamiya Sturmtiger.

How's that for luck?

Jeff

Jeff

About twelve years ago I took the Monogram 1/48 A-6E kit and converted it to a KA-6D.  I entered it in a model show in Pensacola.  At the show was a vendor who had the just released KA-6 conversion kit in resin.  He asked how I was able to get the conversion kit as it was just released.  When I told him it was a scratchbuild job, we compared the two.  The resin release was on equal with my work except for the basket.  The AM had a better looking basket.

My KA never made it to the judging as some kid was later found playing with it on the floor as his younger brother had a Tiger I doing the same.  There it was, minus landing gear, gear doors, drop tanks and pitot boom with the Tiger also misssing parts.  Their father could not understand why we were so upset, as they were only toys and young boys like to play with toys.  

I had something similar happen to both Jeff and Berny.....I went to a show and put a 1/48 Mossie on the table with Aeromaster decals. Everyone knew Tamiya had just the week before released their Mossie but none of the local shops had it yet and only 2 or 3 vendors at the show and theirs had arrived the day before from distributors. I kept getting asked how I got a Tamiya Mossie and how did I build it overnight? Until I got tired of answering nobody would believe me so finally I simply took to picking it up and showing them the empty wheel wells....then they believed it was the ancient Monogram kit.....;)

What a interesting discussion this is. I won't repeat the opinions already made, but would add the following. When AM parts are used as a replacement for kit parts, I would dearly love to see a picture comparison between the kit parts and the AM part. Then I can judge for myself the relative worth of the AM part in terms of cost. As many of you have mentioned, that relative worth will be very subjective.

berny13 wrote:

I am the same way.  I would rather spend the $36 and get a kit that gives me pleasure over a $12 kit that gives me a headach.

Man, I think I'm just the opposite! My last kit was a 1/72 scale Monogram F-4J (a pretty good kit, by the way, but it's no Hasegawa), and my current kit is a 1/74 scale Glencoe MB-2 -- a MAJOR headache.

Still, I haven't had much more fun, or gotten such a sense of accomplishment from a kit, as I have with the MB-2.

Total cost is an interesting concept. For this build, I've bought:

• The kit, which was $5 at a show (retail is around $12).
• Two Aeroclub white metal Lewis guns: appox. $5
• Paint: $10
• Needle nose tweezers (a must for rigging a biplane): approx. $4
• Invisible thread: $2
• Wedding tulle (a fine mesh fabric): $3
• Sanding sticks: $7.50
• Orion Pilots of WWI figure set (24 figures, of which I've used three): $11
• Testors Decal Making System: $5
• Various strip and rod styrene packs: $8
• Some Woodlands Scenics stuff, and a picture frame: $12.

Total: $72.50

I'm not including the air brush I use, because that was a Christmas gift a few years ago; I did not buy it for this build.

In fact, if I don't count the tools or the items that I will use for other projects, I'm down to the cost of the kit, the paint that I've used completely, and the Aeroclub guns.

That's almost out of the box.

Regards,

Very interesting discussion. I don't have much to add except my own opinions. I guess, like most things in life, we can rant, but ultimately it's a case of "to each his own".

Personally I do not like the accepted forms of self proclaimed modelling academia (to steal a great phrase I saw earlier on the forum) of mostly accepting superdetailed and hyper-accurate models as the standard to judge by. I'm not the only one out there that just can't afford this stuff. I saw some tallies posted on this board, and I gotta say that it's fairly unrealistic. For example, that StuG project, were I actually able to find most of those parts, they'd cost me twice as much. Most I'd have to order online. Not that many shops are stocked with good AM parts, and those that are around me cost literally as much as a kit. Most of the AM stuff I found was on the net, and even then, when I tally it all up, the AM always costs as much as the kit. As a result, I've tried to stay away from it, and attempt to go back to modelling basics, that being of scratch-building some simple improvements out of readily available materials. Having said that, pretty much everyone I've shown my models to just muses at the time and patience it takes to make one of these things, straight out of box, nevermind even minor detailing. IMO, it IS a bad trend. I cannot see this hobby really attracting many young hobbyists. I know of this from personal experience. As much as people that go to shows and whatnot would like to disagree, they simply cannot fight facts, and that being that the average modeler is mid to late in their years, male, with a family and a middle-class stable life. FUrther, the geekiness factor of construction and superdetailing again is a factor that does not really appeal to younger crowds. It's kind of a catch 22. To attract more hobbyists, kits have to become simpler and more readily accessible, but it is those same restrictions that will make kits less detailed, thus making them less appealing to the established hobbyists...

zokissima wrote:

For example, that StuG project, were I actually able to find most of those parts, they'd cost me twice as much. Most I'd have to order online.

Excellent point...and this leads back to one of my previous points. Posting a cost for the build is relative. My StuG build has a lot of AM extras, this much is true. However, the kit could also be built up into a nearly identical model with no (or very minimal) AM products. With the hatches closed and the kit's gun used, perhaps only a few PE tool holders would be needed to make the models look substantially the same. The ONLY reason I used these AM products was because I got them all in a group purchase. If I had purchased the kit seperately, I would not have purchased the additional AM products...the kit really didn't need them to look good.

So what does my $50.00 price tag tell a potential reader other than my talent for finding a good deal? Does it tell them how much it would cost them to build the same model with the same AM items? No, it doesn't, because they are not likely to find the same "package deal" I found. Would the listing of MSRP's for all the items do any better? Probably, but as the modeler, I don't think it's my obligation to track down the current prices for these AM products any more than it's my job to find the "best price" for the kit itself. That's a job for whomever wants to buy it. Does the listing of cost tell anyone what AM is needed to correct kit errors? No, it doesn't, because the use of AM was strictly a "choice" on my part and not necessary to the build. Besides, I don't have a clue what parts of the kit are accurate and what parts have errors. All I know is that I prefer AM components in some areas because they look better to my eye.

IMHO modelers in general (including myself) should concentrate the majority of their efforts on "finish" rather than detail sets. A well thought out, superior finish can easily turn a OOTB build into an outstanding model that anyone would be proud to call their own. By the same token, an average or rushed finish on any build will still be substandard, no matter how many AM tidbits the modeler has added to the price tag. Granted, an outstanding finish on a super-detailed build is the "ultimate goal" in the minds of many modelers, but it's not absolutely necessary for someone to construct extremely nice models that showcase their talents.

In our local area, we are actually seeing a slightly higher influx of new, younger modelers into the hobby than in the past 5 or 10 years. I'm talking about the 15 to 20 year old crowd. In some cases, these young modelers are the builders who are embracing AM detail sets far more than some of our well-established, older builders. The older modelers look at an AM set and say, "I can make the same thing, or something darn close, for 1/3 the price or less." The younger modelers don't have those skills yet, but they have WAY more money than I ever did at that age and eagerly buy up the detail sets. This obviously isn't true everywhere, but I find it interesting nonetheless that this is happening in my area.

I personally marvel at some of the OOTB builds I've seen since returning to the hobby and strive to improve my basic modeling skills to meet those standards. Like my younger counterparts, I have yet to develop the scratch-building skills necessary to completely detail an AFV interior from stock styrene and wire...perhaps some day. Until then, if I want to "open the hatches", I'll have to rely on AM products to fill the void. Others may choose to simply keep the hatches closed. That doesn't make them any less of a modeler, just a different modeler, and since we are all individuals, that's a very good thing indeed!

Enjoy your modeling... 

Jeff Herne wrote:

I have a similar experience, although it didn't happen to me. A good friend of mine (yes, I still have a few left) started working on a scratchbuilt 1/35 Sturmtiger about one year before the Tamiya kit was released. He worked on it diligently, and ended up with a great looking model. The first show he brought it to was the first show on the East coast where every vendor had at least a case of the latest "must have" kit, the Tamiya Sturmtiger. How's that for luck? Jeff

Why do I have the feeling that is what might happen to me.  I'm doing a SCB27 conversion and I'm sure that DML will come out with their SCB125 the day I put the last touch on mine.

Then again, that would be great, because I don't care, I am doing what I love to do., converting WW2 Essex class carriers from kits.   How much did it cost me? Again, I won't know or care, for I have $300 saved in my piggy bank and when its gone, its gone and if I have to comb the dumpsters for materials, then that will only add to the fun and challenge.  How much time have I spent on it?  Again, I won't have a clue or care, for in my opinion, I can never totally finish a model.

This subject of time and costs in regards to our models is crazy.  Really, it reminds me of work, for as project manager, I'm required to cost every little part to the penny and estimate and track every hour spent on the project.

I really do not want to do that with my hobby, because then my hobby will become work.

Good point Scott, I never really considered that when I posting my reasoning.

I've had the chance to give it some thought (remarkable, huh?) and as much as I'd like to provide a line-by-line cost analysis of a project build, truth is, I don't know if I honestly could, or if I did, what would the reader gain from it?

What I mean is...my spares box gets a workout with every project, I do a lot of scratchbuilding, and I turn and mill and cast many of my own parts. Are those options available, or even useful, to the average modeler?

I honestly can't think of the last time I bought a kit and a detail set, and just built it. If that were my norm, it'd be easy to say I spent $30 on the kit and $18 on the detail set. I don't know how many of us actually build this way, but I'd tend to think most of us are somewhere in between those two levels.

Of course, it could get ridiculous too...

I spent $30 on the kit, $50 on resin bits, $25 on PE, $40 on Frui tracks, $7 on decals, then I spent $600 on a lathe to turn the barrel and $300 on a compressor to run the $400 Iwata airbrush I bought for this project.

I think that most "super" models that we see start out with a basic kit (obviously, scratchbuilt models are the exception). I think the average reader has the ability to read a story, understand that the builder started with a $30 tank kit, and added lots and lots of details to it. If he (the reader) is at the level of the builder, then chances are he already knows how much it'll cost to get that level of detail.

Most readers will look at a model and say, "I'm not going to add ________ because..." It could be money, skills, experience, or desire (or lack thereof). Usually, readers will say something to the effect that "I'm not going to scratchbuild a replacement mantlet just because the bolt pattern is wrong, but I am going to add a replacement barrel like he did."

Eventually, with each project, the reader's skills and confidence will increase, and eventually (it could take years) he finds himself adding tons of details to a project. That's the typical progression of a modeler. Eventually, we find that we're not newbies anymore. Most of the time, we don't know when we stopped being newbies and started becoming "experienced" modelers.

I guess it boil down to common sense, too. If you read a story and the builder says he added this resin set and that PE set, it's pretty likely that it's going to be expensive if you try to replicate the project.

Maybe I'm an exception to the rule...but I can't tell you where my kits came from, how long I've had most of them, or how much they cost me. I'm constantly swapping and trading kits and buying collections. Same with my detail parts, I have no clue what I have. Sometimes, I'll open a box and find it jam-packed with aftermarket details, and I have no clue where they came from, or where I got them! It's hard to quantify something like that.

I'm babbling again...

Jeff

Jeff Herne wrote:

Most readers will look at a model and say, "I'm not going to add ________ because..." It could be money, skills, experience, or desire (or lack thereof). Usually, readers will say something to the effect that "I'm not going to scratchbuild a replacement mantlet just because the bolt pattern is wrong, but I am going to add a replacement barrel like he did." Eventually, with each project, the reader's skills and confidence will increase, and eventually (it could take years) he finds himself adding tons of details to a project. That's the typical progression of a modeler. Eventually, we find that we're not newbies anymore. Most of the time, we don't know when we stopped being newbies and started becoming "experienced" modelers.

Jeff,

You're not babbling again; you make perfect sense.

I've been reading FSM since I was in high school in '89. In fact, the article that prompted me to buy the magazine was by Bob Steinbrunn on backdating and superdetailing a Monogram F-80C to a P-80. That article blew me away!

I'd read articles like that and say to myself, "Well, I can't make an instrument panel from scratch, but I can make a seat cushion from tissues soaked in glue, and make my own seatbelts from masking tape."

Like a lot of people, I didn't build models after high school until I started again a few years ago. Now I'm in my early 30s, I have a lot more money to spend on the hobby (especially for tools) than I did before, and my skills are much better than they were seventeen years ago.

However, I still look at a lot of the builds, and think, "well, I can't cast replacement landing gear struts from resin (yet), but I can certainly make my own decals."

Truth be told, the title of the magazine is "Fine Scale Modeling" not "Regular Scale Modeling." I expect to see a fair amount of high-level work that involves scratch building and after market parts.

At the same time, Matt Usher's recent articles (on the Corvette and building a diorama) where he shows how to go just a step or two beyond a straight OOB build are fantastic. I hope FSM keeps the varied content of different genres and build levels coming.

Regards,

Quite the can of worms being opened here!

Okay, I see the difficulty of stating exact prices, perhaps it's my naivete with the hobby that makes me want to know how much stuff costs? Perhaps it's my job as Estimating Manager for a large printshop? I certainly don't want my hobby to end up the same as my job, for then I will truly be insane, instead of just being suspected of it.

I just can't get over the feeling that FSM is not really a magazine for experienced modelers, who already know most of what they see each month, or even have those kits in the collection (built or stashed), but is a way for newbie modelers to learn and grow our skills. I look to FSM to educate me on the minutae of the build, and with that in mind, can't help but associate costs to it. I am most definitely NOT independently wealthy, and I'm betting most of us aren't, so cost is a factor to a certain segment of the readership.

Bgrigg wrote:

...so cost is a factor to a certain segment of the readership.

An excellent point! Cost is not only a factor, I think it's one of the most important aspects of everything we do in life. I personally live on a fixed income of under $18K per year, so how much something is going to cost is extremely vital. In addition to the thousands of hours I've spent researching kit reviews and availability, I've spent hundreds of hours over the past three years researching costs. However, the cost alone is seldom the sole decided factor in whether I tackle a particular project...it can be, but not very often. 

The question that appears to need resolution is, "Where is the best place for a modeler to get cost information?" and should the answer be, "FSM". I would personally never rely on a modeling magazine or non-retail web site to provide a completely accurate representation of costs for a kit, product, or project. While they are usually able to provide a "ballpark" figure, my experience has been that I will find cost variations of 30% or more (up or down) from any cost quoted by a non-retail source. The absolute best place to get a cost on anything is from the person, store, or web site where you will buy the item.

My biggest complaint about FSM - aside from the quantity of advertising space - has always been that most build articles are extremely "watered down" and seldom provide the level of detailed information I would prefer. Whether builds are OOTB or super-detailed, nearly all FSM articles appear to written in way that is solely determined by publication space and NOT by the level of information the article should be passing on to the reader. I completely agree a listing of products used on a particluar build (kit#, AM products and #'s, scratch built or spares used, etc.) is valuable information to many modelers. However, one-time cost estimates may not be completely accurate and may only eat up already limited publication space.

This is an extremely interesting discussion and some outstanding points have been raised!!!

Robert,

I consider you a very experienced modeler, so yeah, you shouldn't be relying on FSM for costs. As you said, you have spent hundreds of hours researching costs. A newbie to the modeling addiction doesn't have that experience, or the knowledge, and will look to FSM for that information. FSM knows that hence the msrp cost in New Products and Workbench Reviews.

I'm becoming more experienced about the kit prices but am still a n00b when it comes to AM. Searching online doesn't help as many sites don't show images of the AM and I don't have specifics to compare one kind to the other.

As indicated earlier, I work for a printer and have 20 years of costing print production, not to mention co-ordination of many magazines, books and catalogues. The addition of a price list would be a minor problem to overcome.