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too much superdetailing?

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
Posted by ajlafleche on Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM

Other than a review, where the cost is relavant as are the contents of the box, ease of assembly, etc. the total cost of a model is no one's bloody business quite frankly. If your buddy shows up with a heavily modded car next week, lambo doors, GPS, bling-bling wheels, maxed out sound system, elaborate custom paint, are you going to ask him how much he paid for the mods? Are you even going to ask him how much he paid for the basic car? If you do, his answer should be' "Why would you want to ask such a rude question?"

20 years ago, when the aftermarket was in its infancy, a builder brought an F-15 to a show and listed how much he paid for each AM part. I have never heard anyone get dissed as much as him.

Talal Chouman, who has had a cover feature on FSM scratchbuilds his superb 1/16 armor kits. They are assessed by insurance companies in the tens of thousands of dollars. His total per kit cost for materials would by in the tens of dollars because he uses sheet stock and casts his own resin parts in his tiny workshop in his cellar.

The late Jim Jones, who taught me how to stretch sprue, had his fabulous Shinano in hte feature section about 1989 or 1990. He spent some 1200 hours on the kit and detaliled every gun mounmt and aircraft to a fare thee well. His basic material for this: you may have guessed it...stretched sprue. Cost, nothing.

IIRC, most of the detailing on that AC-130H was scratcbuilt. What would the cost of materials mean to a reader there?

Someone early on bemoaned not entering contests because they can't build cover -models for FSM. A couple years ago, our contest's Best of Show went to an out of box figure that was just extremely well painted. Last fall, I took several place awards with an out of box Verlinden 10" seacoast mortar. Very simple kit, maybe a dozen parts to the piece. It was well assembled and painted. That's what got me the trophies, not a ton extra parts.

My most detailed kits, a 1/72 Sherman (from 1983 before there was any aftermarket that didn't consist of a vacuform something or another), a 1/35 Tiran 5 and a 1/35 Bradley had next to nothing in after market costs.

Face it, gents. We aren't going to recreate the models we see on the cover of FSM for ourselves. No one expects us to. Use them as inspiration for what is possible.

As to the magazine featuring more OOB, they have half a dozen every month in the review section. Want to see what can be done OOB? Look there. Frankly, I think the magazine is already too dumbed down with some of the gallery pictures that have been posted recently and a couple of the feature ariticles that had a lot of WOW factor for size but a number of very basic assembly or painting flaws.

I hate the tought of paying $40 a year to look at average level work. For that money, I expect nothing less than masterworks.

Remember, if the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Greencastle, IN
Posted by eizzle on Monday, January 16, 2006 10:10 PM

Well add this simple build to the list. Matt's Harrier build in the January '06 Mag. A pretty inexpensive kit ( I just bought one for $22 and the PE set for $6) and a pretty inexpensive PE set that turned out awesome! I went out and bought this kit with the PE set, well, cause it looked really cool in the magazine. Hopefully my fat hands don't ruin it Big Smile [:D]

 

Colin

 Homer Simpson for president!!!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:18 AM
What did model builders do 20 or 30 years ago?  At that time AM parts were not available.  They built OOB or scratch built items to improve the quality of a basic kit.  With all the AM parts available today, most model builders rely on them and feel they must have them in order to build a quality kit.  As a result, scratch building has become a thing of the past, with only the old timers having the knowledge.  Has AM parts caused us to be spoiled?  

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:16 AM
To a degree Berny, yes, I think they have. I've looked at two identical models, 1/32 Tamiya F-4s, built back in Jersey. One was built OOB, the other, "to the nines" with Black Box cockpit, aftermarket decals, Eduard PE inside and out, Cutting Edge intakes, etc.

Up close and personal, when I'm looking at it from 6 inches away, yes, I can see the difference. From 2 feet away, I can't tell them apart.

My point is that people add details to their basic kits (not that the F-4 is a basic kit) because they want to, and they can.

Last night, I worked on a 1/350 Tamiya Fletcher. I'm converting it into a late war square bridge from an early war round bridge. That's equivalent to doing a late Tiger I from an early Tiger I, or a Spitfire XIV from a Mk Vb.

So far, I've used Tom's Modelworks replacement bridge, Corsair Armada's incredible 5in. turrets, scratchbuilt midship 40mm boxes, resin life rafts and 40mm guns that I cast myself, and L'Arsenal 20mm guns. I've used parts from 6 or 7 different PE sets, and white metal parts from an old Blue Water Navy Fletcher kit.

All of this stuff was just laying around my shop, I've even had the base kit for more than 5 years now. Sometimes, we have no choice but to detail with extra parts, especially in this instance when there's no late-war Fletcher available in plastic. Yankee Modelworks does an excellent kit in resin, but I decided it was easier to scrounge together the parts that I had laying around, especially since I knew exactly what I'd need to do the job.

In the end, you won't be able to tell my Tamiya from a Yankee kit unless you're on top of it with a magnifying glass. Some things on the Yankee kit will be nicer and more detailed than my model, but some things on my model will be nicer than the Yankee kit. Therein is the trade-off we make, and the reasons we make them are purely our own.

Jeff

PS: great thread, lots of insight into what makes us tick. Thanks for keeping it civilized.


  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:47 AM

 berny13 wrote:
Has AM parts caused us to be spoiled?  

Berny,

I would agree with Jeff and say, "Only partially". Heck, my Dad still thinks everyone today is "spoiled" by remote controls for electronics, cruise control on the car, and microwave ovens.

I would actually lean more toward modelers being indulged by AM manufacturers rather than being spoiled. While these words are synonyms and there's only a subtle difference, I think the word 'spoil' carrys too many negative connotations. There is no doubt that AM manufacturers have provided modelers with a time-saving alternative to scratch-building, but I'm not so certain this "lost art" is, or ever will be, completely forgotten. While I can appreciate the value of using a resin component to save time, I can equally appreciate the skill of using an old beer can to make fenders or stretched sprue to construct a radar array. Scratch-building will never completely die, but like many things in life, it will likely fill a smaller and more specialized nitch in the hobby. 

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM
one thing i think both sides of this discussion will at least agree on ( i hope)  is the use of  AM decals. i mean if you have a thing for a certain type of  aircraft that is the only way you can make 4-5 of them, only because the factory decals are often only 1 to 3 choices
  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:01 AM

now please i don't want to be Blasted by the people in this discussion  that heavily use  a/m parts but ...

in a way does anyone feel that it is cutting corners (not money wise) but in the sense of using your talents

and i have seen alot of your works out here so i DO mean talent

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Pensacola, FL
Posted by Foster7155 on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:01 PM

 DURR wrote:
in a way does anyone feel that it is cutting corners (not money wise) but in the sense of using your talents

I would have to say, No...and Yes!

Anyone who has assembled 3-piece PE German tool holders or spent hours attatching 20 pieces of resin to a build knows that modelers need to develop "new" talents to work with these products. In many cases, AM products require modelers to learn how to work with dissimilar materials, soldering, and modifications to basic kit parts (and many other things) that a basic OOTB builder will never need to learn. Once mastered, these skills don't make them more talented modelers...just modelers with different talents.

Now, are some of these AM products "cutting corners" when compared to a modeler scratch-building the same components? Yes, in many cases that is THE primary reason for using AM products. Even if a modeler has the talent and skill to completely scratch-build a perfect replica of an ACES II ejection seat, the task may take them a month or more to complete. When there's a more than satisfactory resin AM seat available, many modelers will choose to use it.

There will always be modelers whose primary concern in a build is speed (IMO, not a good thing). Just look at the number of requests for tips or tricks to do various tasks quicker and easier. However, I personally don't think that using AM products - by itself - constitutes "cutting corners".

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:25 PM

 DURR wrote:
one thing i think both sides of this discussion will at least agree on ( i hope)  is the use of  AM decals. i mean if you have a thing for a certain type of  aircraft that is the only way you can make 4-5 of them, only because the factory decals are often only 1 to 3 choices

You are 100% correct.  AM decals were the first item offered so you could build something different.  They have been around 30-40 years.  When the first AM decals came out, there wasn't on line reviews or magazine reviews of them.  You had to take your chances when you bought them.  The manufacturer did not always do proper research prior to releasing them.

I remember in the mid 70's when Monogram released their F-86 and MIG-15 in 1/48 scale.  The F-86 was an E model with the 6-3 hard wing.  The MIG-15bis had markings for the Russian AF.  The F-86 kit decals were "Paper Tiger" which was correct for a F-86E, 6-3 hard wing.  I was wanting some North Korera markings for the MIG and some other set for the F-86.  A set of AM decals were released, along with the MIG-15bis.  I bought both sets and when I got them home I discovered the F-86 decals, two were for the F-86A and one for the E model which was "Paper Tiger".  The MIG-15bis had markings for one Russian, one Polish and one East German. 

Several months later another set was released and the LHS only got one set of each.  My friend bought the F-86 decals and I got the MIG decals.  The F-86 had decals for Korea War -F-86 and after further research we discovered two were for the F-86E Standard Soft Wing.  A third was for a F-86F-30, 6-3 hard wing.  None were useable with the Monogram release.  The MIG decals had one Chinese and two North Korea aircraft.  The results were I built the "Paper Tiger" and North Korea MIG-15bis. 

When Monogram re issued both kits later the F-86 had markings for "Jeannie" and the MIG had North Korea markings. 

  

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Friday, January 20, 2006 8:46 AM
I don't think anyone would argue too much about decals, after all, according to the model manufacturers, the only P-51s that existed during WW2 were Big Beautiful Doll, Cripes a Mighty, Shangri-La, Ridge Runner, and Ding Hao! (you get my point)...

I'm on the fence about aftermarket details. In some instances, I think it's overkill, like resin intakes just because you're too lazy to sand a tough seam, or the 'bulged' tire controversy. In my days as an air museum director, I got to work with many WW2-era groundcrew, and a few mentioned that if the tires of their aircraft were bulged like that, they'd be replaced. The only exception, I'm told, is when P-47s were loaded up for strike missions, but in that case, you'd better have lots of garbage hanging off the wings and centerline.

In most cases, aftermarket parts give the modeler the opportunity to add detail without huge amounts of work. Do I have the talent to scratchbuild every little detail? Sure...but I don't have the time, or the desire.

I must confess that my latest addiction is to the new pre-painted cockpit sets by Eduard. They provide a level of detail that I personally cannot achieve in 1/32 and 1/48 scale using any kit part or scratchbuilt piece that I could come up with.

So what's the worst thing about model building?? Excess. What's the best thing about model building?? Excess!! :-)

It's all good, it's a matter of determining where you sit in the moral majority of modeling.

J
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: NYC, USA
Posted by waikong on Friday, January 20, 2006 11:36 AM
Cutting corners? Don't we all do that? (unless you are a complete scratch builder of course). We 'cut corners' in areas that we don't find enjoyable or can't replicate with our current skill sets. Canopy masks are a good example, personally they seem like a lot of money for something I can do just as well with some masking tape. But many people HATE canopy masking (NOT that I love it - I'm just cheap!), so they spend the extra few dollars to achieve the detail the want. I think that rule of thumb applies to much of the AM stuff. Afterall, we are in this to have fun ;)
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Friday, January 20, 2006 4:45 PM

The one AM item I hate the most is PE parts.   I never can get them bent to where they look good.   I can't see taking a PE part, bending it so many times to form a square box.  In that case, I take plastic stock, sand, file and cut to form the same item.  It is much easier for me.  Some parts are so small, I can't even work with them.  My fumble fingers always gets in the way so, I just don't use the small parts. 

Back in the stone age, when I really got serious about model building, I used a lot of plastic and wire to form canopy lock down hooks and side rails,  I remember working several weeks just on one canopy.  Today PE parts enable the builder to do it in less than an hour. You almost never see an aircraft without the PE parts on the canopy, where 20-30 years ago you never saw anything on the canopy.  I now use the PE parts for all my canopies. 

I admit, that PE parts are one of my weaker points of model building.  It hasn't stoped my use of them though. 

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 23, 2006 12:08 PM

Hello all!

I´m sorry - but as I got through the first page of this tread, I almost went into "a giggle loop".  ;)

No offence to all replies...... I just "scrolled" the rest!  Only to confirm that You all could have done a great model in the same time. A model to YOUR OWN satisfaction! No more no less!

Personally I have done excellent handpainted OOB(with homemade detailing) - and the audience....... friends & family....... are in awe!  :))  They don´t know better, do they!? ;)

I´m a total "newbie" to this site/forum. Nonetheless, I did see something like "building-forum/group" somewhere.

I´ll "see" You all there, then! :)

Happy modelling,

Gunnar - Denmark

  • Member since
    July 2005
  • From: Queensland ,Australia
Posted by richard bent on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:59 AM
Well I guess thats all very well, but then if we take that to the extreme, we might as well close the forum down. I for one have very much enjoyed keeping an eye on this thread and its interesting and varied points of view. I personally enjoy spending my time on this forum almost as much as actually building my models.  My 2 cents [2c]Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:00 AM
True, the amount of time we spent here debating and discussing this topic could be spent modeling, but I spend more than enough time in my shop each week, thank you.

I think part of our hobby that we've missed for the last 30 years is the ability to communicate with fellow modelers. Before email, the internet and online forums, we had snail mail and local clubs. I remember my first model club in upstate NY, we had 5 members, and I was the only ship builder in the entire group...not really an informational mecca.

What makes this hobby so great in this day and age is the ability to get advice, research information, and input on a project in a manner that doesn't impede the progress of the build. I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...well, some of us anyway!!!! Tongue [:P]

Jeff
  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by DURR on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:21 PM

 Jeff Herne wrote:
True, the amount of time we spent here debating and discussing this topic could be spent modeling, but I spend more than enough time in my shop each week, thank you.

I think part of our hobby that we've missed for the last 30 years is the ability to communicate with fellow modelers. Before email, the internet and online forums, we had snail mail and local clubs. I remember my first model club in upstate NY, we had 5 members, and I was the only ship builder in the entire group...not really an informational mecca.

 I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...well, some of us anyway!!!! Tongue [:P]

Jeff

were those dugout canoes hard to model?

Oh just wondering did Fred and Barney help youClown [:o)]Laugh [(-D]

 and on a serious note i agree with you

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Greencastle, IN
Posted by eizzle on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:32 PM
 DURR wrote:

 Jeff Herne wrote:
True, the amount of time we spent here debating and discussing this topic could be spent modeling, but I spend more than enough time in my shop each week, thank you.

I think part of our hobby that we've missed for the last 30 years is the ability to communicate with fellow modelers. Before email, the internet and online forums, we had snail mail and local clubs. I remember my first model club in upstate NY, we had 5 members, and I was the only ship builder in the entire group...not really an informational mecca.

 I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...well, some of us anyway!!!! Tongue [:P]

Jeff

were those dugout canoes hard to model?

Oh just wondering did Fred and Barney help youClown [:o)]Laugh [(-D]

 and on a serious note i agree with you

ROTFLMAO!!!Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D] I would imagine you would only have to find a twig that was in scale, how hard could that be??? Man, we are both gonna get bannedTaped Shut [XX]

Colin

 Homer Simpson for president!!!

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:48 PM
I'm amazed at Jeff's prescient ability:

I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...except for Durr and eizzle!!!! Tongue [:P]


LOL!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Greencastle, IN
Posted by eizzle on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 2:59 PM

 Bgrigg wrote:
I'm amazed at Jeff's prescient ability:

I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...except for Durr and eizzle!!!! Tongue [:P]


LOL!

I think finding out htere are more people out there that enjoy the same hobby you do and have normal lives as well helps people feel more secure with this hobby, that is, unfortuantly, seen as a kids pasttime. It does bring confidence to have friends who enjoy the same things, and be able to talk to these friends, rather than trying to talk to your friends that know nothing about it. I wouldn't exactly say I'm more sociable, but I am much more of a smart Censored [censored] since I joined, if you can't tell... BgriggBig Smile [:D]

Colin

 Homer Simpson for president!!!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:48 PM

 Bgrigg wrote:
I'm amazed at Jeff's prescient ability:

I think as a lot, we've become more sociable...except for Durr and eizzle!!!! Tongue [:P]


LOL!

Only you could come up with something like that.  I like it.  Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 26, 2006 12:06 PM

Hello again!

I sincerely did not have any intentions to try ending this tread at all. Just a small input!

To be honest, I should have found a model and got started myself instead!  ;)

Unfortunately, I just joined here a few days ago........... so now - I check my e-mails, and then go and login here......bugger-bugger-bugger!!! :)

In a lot of ways this beats FSM, but then again - I love paper, and it doesn´t need rebooting all the time.

:))

Gunnar - Denmark

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