Judging Models

Kensar, I can understand where you are coming from and your suggestion would only be workable at smaller single category shows. It would be a logistical nightmare to get all attending IPMS members to judge at the US Nationals or at Telford in the UK. The competition area would be simply overwhelmed and if every member had the judging criteria form to fill in it would just degenerate into chaos. What might work for a single subject show would not work in a multi class environment at a large show. Don't know how many members attend the USNats but a large percentage of IPMS UK members attend SMW at Telford on both or either day over the weekend. We have getting on for 3000 members, so therein lies the problem of all members voting. The comps area needs to be reasonably clear for judging to take place or it would never get completed. I accept that there are and will always be widely differing opinions about judging, but really it is a question of what is both practical and workable depending on the size of the show. At national level we have to trust that the organisers will place competent judges to look at their specialised interest group. At small shows often judges get 'roped in' on the day however.

I often wondered if any judge has handled a kit too many times and caused a small part snap off because of their overzealous attitude. 

I have competed in many contests, mostly automotive contests, and I have also judged in quite a few.  I have seen obviously biased judging.  I know just because a select few people (assumed to be subject matter experts) are chosen to judge a category, that dosen't mean the best model will be chosen.  Most subject matter experts have models entered in the categories that they are experts in.

For these reasons, several years ago, many car contests changed judging to the 'NNL' format where everyone attending the show casts votes as 'judges' for the top few models.  This resolved the issue of finding the 'right' people to judge models, making running the contest easier.  Yes, in this case, the judging is not based on absolute accuracy of the subject, but it is more of a popularity contest and how the model is presented.  Overall, most people are satisfied with the outcome.  There are not just a few judges to place blame on if a peticular model did or did not win - the outcome was the choice of everyone present.

As a contestant in this contest format, having my model chosen as one of the top models of the show gave me a lot more satisfaction than having a few judges select it.  I don't understand why many IPMS organizations didn't adopt this format.

Having judged and competed at IPMSUK Scale Modelworld where the competition is at the highest level there will always be people that will be unhappy with the results. Being a judge you have to resign yourself to the fact that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.  Personally I don't lose any sleep about either my judging decisions or how one of my models gets placed, or the diatribes of sore losers either.

TarnShip

Ed, that brings to mind something I have been wondering about for a while,,,,,,,,,when did Rusty stop being IPMS Head Ship Judge?

This is my third full year.   Before me,  Mark Persichetti was head ship judge.   He is now overall head judge.  Mark was probably the head ship judge for 5-6 years.    Guess that Rusty is 8 to 10 years out of being the head ship judge.    Rusty is still active as a moderator in the forums.

Silver

The I.P.M.S. Rule book rivals any large phone book.

Silver

I have seen people judging and competing at the same show.That to me is a no,no.

as long as you aren't judging your category it's fine. i have had 14 entries and still judged in cars or sci-fi. you can learn a lot from categories you usually don't build such as. "i'm not competing in this category. those guys are crazy."

Having read all the previous comments, judging will always be contentious.

I respect everyone's views. Some like contests,others not, so each to their own.

As long as we all enjoy the hobby in our own different ways and don't start taking ourselves or others too seriously that's fine by me!

But always be on the lookout for that sub species the 'Miffed Modeller Pothunter' who is full of their own self importance. Always seen lurking around competition areas no matter how big or small the show to get their winning 'fix'. Goes Cold Turkey if they lose, often accompanied by a load of negative diatribe about competitors models, judges parentage etc. ad nauseum.

I know that a bunch of us weren't "griping" at all in this thread, just discussing.

And I am pretty sure that Ed knows how many judges, and how many teams, etc......considering his position.

Ed, that brings to mind something I have been wondering about for a while,,,,,,,,,when did Rusty stop being IPMS Head Ship Judge?

Rex (another SMMLie)

IPMS judging on the national level is done by three judge teams.  So yes they talk to each other.

Our local club invested in a box of cheap penlights, and plastic dental mirrors so entries would not be handled by the judges.  Really ticked off the armor guys who had a habit of not finishing the underside of the hulls or inside of the road wheels.  If I could get down at table lever with my flashlight and see it, it was dinged.

When I'd judged at nationals, we were asked to stay around after the awards were announced, to answer questions by entrants.  Writing down what we saw about certain models is very time consuming.

 I'm at a loss, trying to understand the griping in here.  If you don't like contests, get nothing out of them, or are just too insecure, fine.  Don't go.  Why waste time going on about something you have no interest in.

Thanks Ed, this discussion seems to have been tabled in lue of checking of information. Like i said earlier stuff like this heelps this hobby stay current and change with the times. IPMS#46399

TarnShip

I'm more concerned with all the talk about models winning at a Regional and then being entered in a Local,,,,,,,,I thought that was not allowed? "entering upwards" is okay, but, not "slumming with a winner"

Now that i must agree with, i think it's fine to enter a regional winner as EXIBITION and not to compete,nothing wrong with showing off but try to beat possible less skilled modelers with a proven winner is IMO bad eticute. Not to go astray but what is said about entering the regional winner in another regional, ie one wins in region 7 and wants to travel to region 3 before going to Nationals?

Thanks Ed,,,,,,,so it is going to be spelled out even plainer as a tie-breaker.

By being 5th in line, it was only going to be used as a tie-breaker, anyway. That is what I was trying to say. (I am just saying that it is not correct to say that "accuracy is not a criteria", in 2014 and 2015 both, it is still on the list)

I'm more concerned with all the talk about models winning at a Regional and then being entered in a Local,,,,,,,,I thought that was not allowed? "entering upwards" is okay, but, not "slumming with a winner"

Rex

TarnShip

Accuracy is actually a  judging criteria (that would include colors),,,,,,,but, it is something like the 5th item on the list, with one huge exception.

Something like a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman, an International Orange Arizona or an Olive Drab F-4S gets thrown out before even looking at the glue seams and the quality of the paint job.

from the link in Wayne's post above, and in section

II-Contest Definitions and Judging

"Judging.  Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, scope of effort, and accuracy. " (there it is, Accuracy is number 5 in the IPMS-USA list of criteria for judging)

Rex

Accuracy is actually a  judging criteria (that would include colors),,,,,,,but, it is something like the 5th item on the list, with one huge exception.

Something like a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman, an International Orange Arizona or an Olive Drab F-4S gets thrown out before even looking at the glue seams and the quality of the paint job.

from the link in Wayne's post above, and in section

II-Contest Definitions and Judging

"Judging.  Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, scope of effort, and accuracy. " (there it is, Accuracy is number 5 in the IPMS-USA list of criteria for judging)

Rex

armornut

...by IPMS, it is my understanding that BASIC construction, APPLICATION of finish and decals are to be judged before color or accuracy. If an obvious seam is not addressed it matters not what color the subject is...

my understanding is colors aren't suppose to be judged  within reason. obviously any unusual color scheme should be documented. bases aren't suppose to be judged either but it's difficult to separate not to, ASSUMING the model sitting on top is a well done build. i'm sure at least one of my field guns won in part because it has a cool base that is within the new IPMS base rules.

i'll talk to the ipms head judge at breakfast on saturday if he makes it down due to weather.

http://www.ipmsusa2014.com/2014_IPMS-USA_National_Contest_Rules.pdf

Unless i'm misunderstanding this thread ( entirely possible) no one here has yet to qoute the actual rules of judging set forth by IPMS, it is my understanding that BASIC construction, APPLICATION of finish and decals are to be judged before color or accuracy. If an obvious seam is not addressed it matters not what color the subject is. I do however rarely enter contests myself mostly cause i've turned into a collector vs a builder, but i have also had my fill of "rivet counters", i will gladly fill a table at an exibition though. I mean no disrespect with my two cents, a few of ya'll are folks i talk to and am humbled by the work you do show. Great thread, this is how our hobby grows and adapts to changing times.

Rob Gronovius

an Abrams tank or other modern US armor piece, I could judge those items and more, but would have to "force" myself to see through inaccurate markings, like USMC markings on an Army M1A2SEP or USMC style grenade launchers on an Army tank and just look at construction basics.

hey rob

you should have seen me judging sci fi and figures. it was all about the basics until the last 3 and than a which one did we like most. like over weathered armor, so some of these universes can fly FTL but can't prevent rust? unless, of course, we are talking FIREFLY.

i wouldn't know any of that. maybe that's why i build JGSDF and PLA stuff. not too many Chinese army judges. i understand the forcing issue but i wonder if an inaccuracy on an OOB build should even be considered. obviously in a contest with no specific OOB it would be judge able. or maybe my mind is delving into minutia this AM and i need to focus it on some detail stuff like a 1/35 truck engine or a jigsaw puzzle... 

.

judging at local contests can be a bit of a crap shoot. it helps to have one person knowledgeable in the subject to point out obvious flaws (such s someone who knows the round thingie on the back of a PZ IV is a muffler not a fuel tank). my BEDFORD took a 2nd in a regional but didn't place in a later local contest. OTOH my UN UNIMOG took a first in regional and local and 2nd in another local (commercial trucks) . the 2nd was going up against a 40+yr experience model builder in my club with a tricked out 1/24 wrecker. some of my wins are ok builds that saturated a category (that i happen to enjoy building in) but some are worthy of bragging. i do enjoy it and enjoy the wins but don't mourn the losses.

I will enter a contest or two, when the schedules and moons align.  Not for the chance of winning a prize or ribbon, but for the drive that it gives me to do better.  I can easily overlook a mistake here and there if it is "Just for me", but when the thought occurs that this will be sitting on the table and getting scrutinized by better modelers than myself?  I take a deep breath, and go correct that mistake.  

It makes me a better modeler.  It makes me enjoy the hobby more.  It makes me strive for my own excellence.

I have entered exactly one hobby store show, and took best of show with an A-4 that was unweathered, unweaponed, and unfinished.  No, it wasn't a super small show, but I was proud.  I gave that model away.

I will build another.  And another.  And another.  Sometimes I will show others what I have done.

The differing points of view in all the preceding posts made for some very interesting reading. Modelling competitions will always be the subject of hot debate.

Personally I enjoy entering competitions. The reason being that it 'ups the ante' for me as a modeller, so that I develop my skills, have a timeframe to work within and it makes me actually finish a model off. There is nothing like a deadline for doing this. I dropped out of competitive modelling for a number of years and started again about 4 years ago. Whilst in the 'doldrums' so to speak, a lot of my models remained half finished for ages (if they got finished at all in some cases)!

I have seen competitive modelling from both sides both as a competitor and as a judge at SMWUK.

As a judge, I always looked at the build quality and the finish of the model before anything else was considered, to sort out the ones that would be in contention from the also rans. I have never felt the need to use a jewellers loupe, torch or magnifying glass to do any judging. Judges that resort to using those sort of things only look as if they are going over the top instead of looking like experts my opinion. After all it is only models being judged not micro bioscopic samples!

As was earlier suggested, writing comments about the models for each entrant on the day would simply be too time consuming to complete anyway. The suggestion is well meaning, but the downside to this is if a modeller takes umbridge and disagrees with any comment it could lead to unpleasant incidents. Judges sacrifice a lot of their time at any show to do what sometimes can be a thankless unpaid task. Best left alone I think.

As a competitor, I enjoy the challenge and it is nice to be a winner once in a while, but I do not lose any sleep about it regardless of whether my models win or lose, and aim to do better with the next model. I always bear in mind the philosophical words of a late friend of mine and highly regarded model maker Tony Woolett who was winner of the IPMS UK National Championships on a number of occasions.

'REMEMBER THAT YOUR MODEL WILL BE NO WORSE AT THE END OF THE COMPETITION THAN WHEN YOU FIRST PLACED IT ON THE COMPETITION TABLES'