Etiquette in Responses?

No you do not chuck it in the trash!Although my ICM TB-3 Zveno surely tempted me to do so many times!

MJames70

When some one makes it clear in their post that the given kit is what they have to work with, it is not helpful when Mr. Rivet Counter comes in not to offer any advice, just point out all the flaws in the kit, and say 'I'd throw it in the trash'. That is not useful or helpful in any way. And this has happened here quite recently.

So before you go blasting 'fun defenders', ask yourself why some rivet counters have gotten a bad name, and people feel the need to offer some other other advice besides 'I'd throw it in the trash'.

Herein lies the problem; "Mr. Rivet Counter" said "he would trash the rest of the kit", but never told the modeler to do so. Sounded like his opinion to me. He then told him about stuff needed to accurize the kit, but then not to worry about spending extra money for aftermarket on it. Extraneous information because I don't think anyone expected the modeler to run out and buy the stuff any way, but could be helpful to someone who wanted to fully upgrade this kit.

I said it was a pretty good kit and to build it OOB.

You tell him to file my advice in the crapper and then give him the EXACT same advice to build it OOB.

I've been assisting the builder both in the forum and offline via private messages with my personal photos, my experience when I built the original kit, my observations on my unbuilt kit parts, and helping him fix his own construction errors that would cause problems finishing his kit.

The sum total of your assistance to him: calling people trying to help him rivet counters and telling him to ignore our advice.

Have you even read his responses to our assistance? Seems more thankful to us than to you.

When some one makes it clear in their post that the given kit is what they have to work with, it is not helpful when Mr. Rivet Counter comes in not to offer any advice, just point out all the flaws in the kit, and say 'I'd throw it in the trash'. That is not useful or helpful in any way. And this has happened here quite recently.

So before you go blasting 'fun defenders', ask yourself why some rivet counters have gotten a bad name, and people feel the need to offer some other other advice besides 'I'd throw it in the trash'.

I know if I post a build,I expect some feedback.Whether it be positive or negative.Of course negative should not be scathing but given with an eye toward improvement.I will apply the suggestions that I am caple of or save them for the next build,but again all comments are welcome.I think it's worse when you post a build and nobody comments,I mean nobody,yes it has happened to me,I mean was it that bad ? Part of being a community is the occasional attaboy even if your new to the forum,or don't feel qualified to say anything,or got nothing to say,just to let you know you are part of the community.

jtilley

I've long had the theory that a lot of people - not all of them by any means - use their hobbies as a means of getting what they don't get in their daily lives. When I was in college, and later when I was teaching, Model building offered an enjoyable, stress-free, utterly non-competitive activity with no deadlines, in which the only standards that really mattered were mine. That made it valuable to me - and still does.Some people have dull, repetitive, non-competitive jobs and have few or no professional outlets for creativity or individuality. They rarely, if ever, get to take pride and satisfaction from what they do on the job; nobody ever tells them they're doing it better than somebody else.

I respect and sympathize with such folks, and if model building fills a void in their lives, that's great. But I always wonder how many of those nasty, sneering "critiques" come from people who regularly are on the receiving end of such critiques in their day jobs. Or whose spouses and/or offspring are driving them to distraction. We'll never know how many times building a model has kept some poor schlep from going postal.

It's not for me to decree that anybody else's approach to a forum like this is right or wrong. If somebody thinks he/she sees something in one of my models that could be better, I'd like to hear about it. But a self-appointed critic who uses contemptuous language toward me or anybody else won't get a reply from me - and I reserve the right to hit the "Report Abuse" button. My observation has been that the FSM moderators have pretty reasonable standards of conduct. And please don't suggest that I enter a model in a contest-or worse, judge one. I've had enough competition for one lifetime.

I don't think I've seen sneering critiques in the armor forum beyond the ones given to Model Maniac's commissioned builds. He only posts pictures of the latest kits he's paid someone to build for him. He's proud of  his collection. The kits normally have uneven finishes (heavily weathered upper, showroom clean lower) and often have basic construction errors. I usually pass them by, but many members take his participation as a personal affront. Easier to just avoid that mud hole than to fall in by choosing a side.

The critiques I see that get attacked are simple observations, often direct answers to questions made by the modeler asking for help. Someone then enters the discussion telling the OP to ignore the advice and build it to suit themselves and just have fun. Most of the modelers I know personally think it is fun to build a kit as accurate as possible. And I do to an extent, but I also enjoy buying a kit on impulse, cracking open the box and just gluing parts together without regard to accuracy issues.

I "love" the way folks are in these forums. Whether they are "atta boy" or "rivet counter". If the original poster asks for a critical review others shouldn't jump all over one of those reviews. I couldn't tell the difference from one kit's accuracy to the next. But I can find the wrong hardware on a full size A/C nearly blind-folded. ( I found a run on my mom's van recently also!) That's why I never became an inspector at the factory I used to work at. :) But always, always, be courteous. I might need help the next time. You know: do unto others... Bob

definitely, Glenn

Just a simple "gripe sheet" for anyone that didn't place would be a help,,,,,,It would be good to know that I built at the fourth place level instead of "not 1,2 or 3",,,,heck right now I wouldn't know if I was 4th or 17th out of 17 models.

Both require improvement to win,,,,,but, I would know how much I need to improve if I know 4th or 17th

Rex, the contest part could contribute to a modeler's skill set improvement much more than it does now. Instead of 1, 2, 3, then "nice try, come again"; it should rate a modeler's skill in several areas of technique and provide that info to the builder, along with a rank of (for lack of a better word) competency. At least everyone would get feedback on how to improve should they so desire.

Jtilley, you just touched on another area that modelers can be in different places in their lives.

First, I fully agree with the Jobs vs Hobby part,,,,,,,I have had menial jobs and needed something to occupy my mind. Then I went to college and used my hobby both to relax and to dive into the details even deeper, I had found that exercising my mind helped keep it sharp.

The new item you introduced is the different spots we might all be in concerning shows and competitions.

I was a member of IPMS a long time ago, in a very remote area that had no clubs or meetings,,,,we didn't have a "real" hobby shop for more than a hour's drive. So, after about five years of not too many useful benefits, I quit renewing. (that made me a non-competing member)   About 2007 or so, I started going to the shows and contests, including two Nats,,,,,,as a spectator/vending room customer.  I enjoyed looking at other people's models very much, and seeing which ones won an award, and how many times Anne and I could guess right beforehand. (that made me a non-competing contest spectator)

So, now, today,,,,,,at 57 years old,,,,,,I am thinking that it might be fun to compete and maybe win a trophy or two. Mostly just to see if I build as well as I have always thought I do,,,,,,or to see if my style is "out of touch" with the rest of the modeling world, even though I enjoy my way just fine.

Just one or two Firsts, seconds, or thirds, or a Gold, Silver or Bronze or two, would satisfy me just fine.

At the other end of the spectrum, there is a guy that could say "I have competed in every US Nats except 1972, and have won at least a Third place in every one,,,,,,except that time I was robbed in 1982"

There are hundreds of online members that fall in between there,,,,,including some that are not even interested in trying for just one trophy at all.

I am sure that if we factor in all the possible differences, no two modelers are alike in their goals, or in their experiences, which is actually a good thing.

Rex

I've long had the theory that a lot of people - not all of them by any means - use their hobbies as a means of getting what they don't get in their daily lives. When I was in college, and later when I was teaching, Model building offered an enjoyable, stress-free, utterly non-competitive activity with no deadlines, in which the only standards that really mattered were mine. That made it valuable to me - and still does.Some people have dull, repetitive, non-competitive jobs and have few or no professional outlets for creativity or individuality. They rarely, if ever, get to take pride and satisfaction from what they do on the job; nobody ever tells them they're doing it better than somebody else.

I respect and sympathize with such folks, and if model building fills a void in their lives, that's great. But I always wonder how many of those nasty, sneering "critiques" come from people who regularly are on the receiving end of such critiques in their day jobs. Or whose spouses and/or offspring are driving them to distraction. We'll never know how many times building a model has kept some poor schlep from going postal.

It's not for me to decree that anybody else's approach to a forum like this is right or wrong. If somebody thinks he/she sees something in one of my models that could be better, I'd like to hear about it. But a self-appointed critic who uses contemptuous language toward me or anybody else won't get a reply from me - and I reserve the right to hit the "Report Abuse" button. My observation has been that the FSM moderators have pretty reasonable standards of conduct. And please don't suggest that I enter a model in a contest-or worse, judge one. I've had enough competition for one lifetime.

I too have to agree that the only weak point of this site is the oversensitivity.  I mean yes, if someone does not want critique, that is fine, I won't offer it.  But then again, you can't ever know if the person rally wants critique (unless they come right out in the beginning and say they want it.)  All it takes is being a little polite on both sides.  If the builder does not want the advice offered to him then a simple "yeah, I knew it was probably wrong, but I like it the way it is and I learned a lesson for next time."  But the door does swing both ways. If you are going to offer critique there is being nice about it and being an ***.  For example, a Spitfire build I did and posted here I got the usual "nice job" and "atta boy" comments, which I appreciated.  I also got some honest mistakes pointed out to me, which I appreciated much more and thanked everyone for.  Alas the last comment I got was a rather rude one.  The commenter said "I am nonplussed why you would complain about the overlarge panel lines and then go and accent them with a pin wash".  I decided to just take the high rod and leave it at that.  The me of a few years ago would have started arguing like a pit bull in a dog fight, but as I grow older I realize it isn't worth arguing with people on the internet.  There is too much negativity on the net already, so I now try to keep positive.  It may not cancel out the negativity, but I feel better about it at the end of the day.

Brian

Well, there is a third way that discussing it all in public can affect modelers.

We've covered the "don't say anything bad about a model" approach,,,,in those cases, I just don't say anything, I can't make myself say "great model" for a Phantom painted "SEA" by using 14090, 34108, 30140 and 36081. So, if I see something like that, I won't praise it or slam it down.

We've covered the "say it in a PM, to really help the guy out, without attracting the people that jump on anyone talking accuracy" approach

But, there is a very good reason for giving the help in public. People actually do follow the common advice and do a search for topics on web forums. So, if Stik asks "what do you think of my version of International Orange?" and I answer that in a PM,,,,,,only Stik ever gets the answer. The people that search for that later on, find the thread, and think they can just open it and get the answer, don't get anything out of that thread.

I just answer out in the open, and if someone wants to come roaring in and stop the helping, I either snarl at him, or PM a mod. Trust me, if I snarl at a guy, someone PM's a mod right quick, lol.

It is just a matter of trusting the mods to do their jobs and allow the public exchange of facts to flow. Otherwise this entire forum only needs one post, and no responses. It is "Use your search engine to find the specs, documents, and photos, if it is not on the internet already, go without it"

We need to be able to just talk again, without all the disclaimers "it is your model" (no kidding, it was my money), IMHO (if it is not fact, and you typed it, we know it is an opinion), labeling factual statements as IMO (if it is a fact, you don't need to say it is only an opinion, it is a fact, whether someone agrees with it or not) "to my eye, at least" (yeah, each of us looked at it, it is "to all of our own eyes")

of course, IMO YMMV, and IMHO TGIF

Rex

Critique is a funny business.

Disclaimer: I've neither been around here long enough nor have the experience to do so, and I am aware of that. I speak generally. Too busy learning and critiquing myself to even think about critiquing in these here parts.

Over the years (mostly in photography, not modelling forums) I've seen folks ask for critique, then get all bent out of shape when it is offered up. This isn't Stik or a person like Stik. There are folks like Stik who ask for it, and want it if it is delivered properly. Then there are folks who ask for it then go berserk when it it offered up.

Then there is the issue of a person sincerely asking for critique, and meaning it, then getting bent out of shape because critique is offered up by a newbie, or by a person the OP deems below him/her.

Point being, again, tricky business.

All I know is I joined here early last year because I had been doing a lot of googling for general modeling info, and in the months of doing so, 90% of the useful info came from here. And it was easy to see what a great group of folks call this place home.

I am so glad I joined. I love this place and the folks here. Thanks to you all and of course to FSM for making this wonderful 'place' available to us.

I doubt that as long as I live, will I forget the warm welcome, and how y'all made me feel so at home so quickly. Getting 'established' at forums in general can be frustrating. I'd all but given up on forums in general. Taking the plunge here last year was one of the best calls I made last year for sure.

BTW, that suggestion a few pages back to google internet trolls was interesting, thanks for that. Confirmed my theories. I think of them as introverted narcissists. (a bit of a contradiction in terms, I know. )

(Sorry about long post)

Oh so very true. We can not improve and grow as modelers, in either the accuracy or artistic camps, without feedback. And feedback that helps one improve has to catch the gigs. We learn more from our mistakes and how not to repeat them.

Bish

stikpusher

 

So for those of you who do have technical knowledge of a subject, please continue to share it with me. And I am sure other folks here will continue to appreciate such input as well.

I'll second that. I know Roy, amongst others, helped me out hugely with the 88 I built a few months back. I know that if they had kept quiet and I had found things out later, I would have been kicking myself.

I will share, but will not critique publicly. I don't worry about responses I get from the builder who asks for it. I just don't want to deal with the negativity by other members who feel the need to defend your build from "the mean old nitpicking rivet counter who never builds kits and just sucks the joy out of model building." Yes, I know you can take it and appreciate a keen eye, but there are too many people who feel the need to jump in to your defense.

It is easier to avoid those situations. No one wins and we all lose.

Youse achuallie put dem on backwoids ? Whoo dats funnie

Aha !

You're from " Down Under ? "  I have a mate who runs Kids Run The train at our rail Museum . he retired as the driver of that long straight scudder in your country .

Hi ,

     Over time I've been the butt of some comments too . I just let it go now .Before an H.A. almost took me out of this world , I now know what's important and what's not . You post because you want to share or need help .That's what it is supposed to be about .

    All the folks here , Past and Present are the Grand Old Team  !They welcome you , Chide you and congratulate you too .There's no Prima - Donna's here . Some perfectionists , Yes , But I love them all the same . As a member let me say " Thank You " for being part of our family !

Well, then. . .

it's almost the Red Hour

and time for Festival

Or would that be another name for "modeling madness?"

We have no plans to attend the festival. Is this truly Landru?We have destroyed ourselves!.

I am waiting for "Festival" here...

Joy to you, friend;  peace and contentment.

It is the will of Landru.

And it makes a great forum, too.

I got thrown off a forum. I did a little self-examination and concluded I had been behaving like a horses ***. Probably was good for me.

Who me? Nope. LOL!

Mike Van Buskirk, is that you?

Out of curiousity, I went to the website where I got banned 6 months ago. Not surprisingly it won't let me scan the forums without signing on. A window was popped up stating this:

Reason for the ban as follows - No reason specified.

Date ban will be lifted: Never.

Thats a good story. You mentioned footprints on models a while back- I've never heard of that before.

I'd say if that modeler went to that level of detail, he probably really appreciated the 1/1 observation.

My surprise brown (well almost) moment on the flight line. Dad and I went for a ride on the Collings B-24. First flight of the day. The crew chief asked for a volunteer- I jumped on it.

So he had me pull the props through on the starboard engines while he did the other side. Big son of a guns.

On the second engine as I leaned into it, the pilot fired up some electrically driven pump in the engine. Big escalating whine. Man I jumped.

The payoff was that I got to sit in the r/o seat right behind the pilots for take off, and I got to crawl forward into the nose turret once the gear was up. That big front tire was still spinning a little.

The mention of accuracy and the "what do you think of this?" in posts above got me to remembering a model.

It wasn't on here, but, it was a Skyhawk. The guy posted a finished model of his, and asked "what do you think of my weathering job?". I posted my thoughts about 5 posts into the thread,,,,,,and got my rear end royally blasted by a squadron of people that must have been good modelers, but had never spent 2 minutes near a real Skyhawk.

The reason was that I pointed out the boot scuff marks out near the wing tips, right over the vortex generators and front slat. The aircraft was decaled up as the exact same one in a Ginter photo, right down to the weapons load out. So, I explained why there wouldn't be boot and knee prints out that far on a real Scooter,,,,,,and tried to convey how important a Gunny would find it if he caught you "stomping around on my fuel tanks" (It was a Marine model)

after 15 or 20 insults about me being a "rivet counter with no life",,,,,,,,the model builder thanked me for telling him about those wings, and then in PM we exchanged "sea stories" about that subject, in which I told him what each of those oval panels on top of a Skyhawk's wings really was, and why you got screamed at if it even looked like you were going to step on them.

There are model builders out there that spent time around the 1/1 thing,,,,,,,I hope that I run into one in any thread I start about an aircraft I didn't work on or near,,,,,,I don't know who else I would learn from,,,,,I have just as many books as any other "book-spert" on my chosen subject,,,,,,just quoting from those is something I could just do myself.

edit, I started the slat thing and didn't finish it.  That pair of slats that are so famously "always deployed when on the ground" could be in the stowed position. There are two reasons, one is that they sometimes held up there just by friction when a Ramp Roach pushed one up as he walked by, and the other is that there was a strap that could be installed to hold the slat up in the well. I guess you could stomp your tootsie's on a slat, but, it would either be strapped up,,,,,,,,,or it would instantly deploy when your feet hit it,,,the resulting fall would make me inclined to "weather" just that one slat with the colors Buttocks Blood or Back of the Head Blood, with maybe a touch of "Surprise Brown",,,,,,,we used to startle the newbies by pushing some slats back and then driving a tow tractor by, the vibration caused the slats to fall, lol, this was an important part of their education concerning where the Gunny and Cpl approved of them walking

I've been here for quite awhile now and, though there have been four or five exceptions (at least three of whom apparently got thrown out), I've generally found the participants to be a fine, courteous bunch of folks. I'll never forget what happened when I came back to the Forum after a three-month medical problem. The good wishes and encouragement from Forum members on three continents were indescribably moving.

I make it my personal policy never to criticize a finished model. Once in a while I'll point out a problem I see I an in-progress photo, IF I think the problem can be fixed without much difficulty. And I regard manufacturers, as opposed to modelers, as fair game - especially when they try to rip off the public. (See HECEPOB.) But model building for me is strictly a hobby - a source of satisfaction and pleasure. This Forum makes it more enjoyable. If it ever ceases to do so, I'll quit posting.

Advice and criticism is fine...as long as it is being asked for.  It the poster just wants to share a build then critiques and advice really need to be avoided.

Likewise, if advice and criticism are being asked for then the other people reading the replies need to respect that.  For example, there was a thread were a plane builder asked people what they thought of his work.  This plane was flawlessly built.  But the weathering was a bit strange and deliberate looking.  It sort of looked cartoonish.  One of the forum members pointed this out in a very nice and non-hostile way after complimenting the other aspects of the build.  Well, some of the other members attacked him for daring to criticize this build...even though criticism was asked for.

We all have to respect others' comments but we need to be respectful with our comments, as well.