What is your answer?

the doog

The pilot can't kill you; the plane can....

That's the same as saying "the person doesn't kill; the gun does." Baloney!

You shoot to destroy the pilot & his machine. It's the pilot that makes the machine do it's job. Once you take out the pilot, he can't come back with another machine to continue his mission.

Yes, it was,,,,,photos are in various books showing Marines loading planes,,,,,,and in some South Vietnam photos of T-28s and the like.

Rex

(not an apology, just an explanation, but, knowing what did and will again happen to any landing craft full of Marines steaming for the beach, I am fairly comfortable with my stance on this topic)

,,,and remember to wrap some ammo belts around some of the bombs to provide plenty of shrapnel

Was that ammo belt for more shrapnel really done?

The pilot can't kill you; the plane can....

When I was in the police academy, I was taught to shoot for center mass. In a warbird, that's where the pilot is.

If you think about it...paratroopers vs pilots bailing out is not that odd. See previous explanations in this thread or the link I posted.

Ain't no thing to stay away from bears I hope I never see on while I'm out hunting. Deer are just plain delicious.

In the savagery of war, and not being a pilot, my moral compass swings to let him ride to maybe fight another day Von Richtofen allowed enemy aircraft and crews a pass if thier guns jammed or ran out of ammo,  it's only "sporting" but if the swinging pilot was shooting with his service weapon well, a bullet is a bullet and ANYBODY can make a "one in a million" shot. Odd that it's ok to shoot paratroops but not pilots. A humorus twist, would we wait for a deer or bear to arm themselves before we made sausage or burger out of them?

Convert plane to scrap metal, if pilot gets tagged in process, that's the luck of war.  If pilot leaves plane, he gets to live to fight another day.  Going after a heavy, take out the gunners, just like a flak suppression mission before killing the plane.  View that as self defense.  If bomber crew bails, they get to live to fight another day.  I can agree that if I observe a pilot not playing nice, he gets singled out for the same treatment he is dishing out.  

John

shoot at center of mass, just like self defense shooting. on a fighter that's the wing root into the fuselage which just happens to be where the pilot is.

Further commentary on the subject if anybody finds themselves interested.

www.icrc.org/.../Comment.xsp

Rob Gronovius

DURR

the other part to this ? might be do you shoot to kill the enemy pilot who has bailed out  or do you shhot a guy in the back because his gov views r diff than your gov views  that my view  and i know many will not like it

Shooting a pilot in a parachute or other air crewman, like from a bomber, is against the law of war and is a crime. Now paratroopers are a different topic. They are combatants and can be shot while parachuting down from an airplane.

Air crew parachuting from a destroyed have certain protections afforded them by the Geneva Convention. They are to be given a chance to surrender to ground forces.

Bottom line, paratroopers are open season; you can fire machine guns, flak etc. at them. Air crewmen are not.

Seeing as the discussion is primarily talking about WW2, this only became a war crime in 1949, during WW2, it was not against the rules of war.

At the start of WW2, the idea was considered unchivalrous by many on both sides. Goering once asked Galland his view on the matter, to which Galland replied "I should regard it as murder, Herr Reichsmarschall. I should do everything in my power to disobey such an order". To which Goering responded with "That is just the reply I had expected from you, Galland".

But while it was frond upon, it of course did happen, but at the time, it was considered bad sport, but not illegal.

DURR

the other part to this ? might be do you shoot to kill the enemy pilot who has bailed out  or do you shhot a guy in the back because his gov views r diff than your gov views  that my view  and i know many will not like it

Shooting a pilot in a parachute or other air crewman, like from a bomber, is against the law of war and is a crime. Now paratroopers are a different topic. They are combatants and can be shot while parachuting down from an airplane.

Air crew parachuting from a destroyed have certain protections afforded them by the Geneva Convention. They are to be given a chance to surrender to ground forces.

Bottom line, paratroopers are open season; you can fire machine guns, flak etc. at them. Air crewmen are not.

Yes, a pilot has to get in pretty close to be able to place his fire at a specific point of his target aircraft as opposed to just shooting at the whole aircraft silhouette. There is a well known piece of German gun camera footage of a rear attack on a B-17 where the pilot gets closer and closer and his fire gets more specific into each engine as he closes. I'm sure most folks here have seen it.

stikpusher

"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commander's won't allow them to write  on their aeroplanes. Because, 'it's obscene' ".

I have a new friend here (former FFG type) that we have weekly movie nights watching older movies and  enjoying some refreshing beverages while the kids and wives do their thing. Quite enjoyable. We watched The Sand Pebbles and The Wind And The Lion for our last viewing.

Ah,,,,,,it has been quite a while since I watched that last. I am currently part way through WW II again, on "A Bridge Too Far".  Going to be a while before I get to Vietnam and DS again. (All of the Victory at Sea episodes are still to go)

It's from the end of Apocalypse Now... the last transmission of Col Kurtz just before his final demise. I think it perfectly sums up the hypocrisy of high command regarding such things.

I think I am supposed to know that quote, Stik. But, those two brain cells aren't active at the moment. Who was that? (I can guess the era, because of aeroplanes)

"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commander's won't allow them to write  on their aeroplanes. Because, 'it's obscene' ".

Yes, we were left to assume that taking out the pilot or taking out the aircraft were equal choices.

I wonder how the ground attack deal would work, trying to keep all of that "honor" in place as it was done.

"okay, you Blue shirts tow those loaded up Corsairs over to the bombing up area",,,,,,"you Red shirts arm them up with bullets, shells, bombs, and Napalm,,,,,,,and remember to wrap some ammo belts around some of the bombs to provide plenty of shrapnel",,,,,,,,"pilots, there is a pre-flight briefing, you are on notice that some of you seem to have been dropping your stuff on the enemy, you know you are only supposed to be taking out trucks and tanks, and let the people thing 'just happen' as you go along"

I don't think given all that is going on in aerial combat that many, if any, pilot was good enough to so narrowly target just the pilot.  But for the hypothetical here, the proper answer is destroy the air asset and whatever happens collaterally, happens.  Of course the argument in taking out the pilot is that he could then get in another plane one day and then take you out.

Fighter vs fighter usually lucky to get a hit.

Fighter versus multi motor, go for the airframe kill.

CN Spots

I'd fly alongside and tell him his panel lines are out of scale.  He'd bail out in disgust.

I'd fly alongside and tell him his panel lines are out of scale.  He'd bail out in disgust.

BSheep

I think there's a movie in the works about this incident. What is funny is that Charlie Brown was probably living close to me in Miami and being a police detective at the time, I could have located him very easily if I had known about this.  A truly moving story.

www.youtube.com/watch

It's against the laws of war to shoot an aviator in a parachute in the air. Us paratroopers are fair game. That being said, I remember seeing an interview with one if the Yoxford Boys, I can't recall if it was Bud Anderson or somebody else. But he mentioned about how they would not shoot parachuting German airmen. But, during one escort mission he saw a German fighter pilot shooting downed bomber crews in their chutes. He said that he got on that fighters tail then picked and picked at him until he forced that pilot to bail out. He said that he then shot that pilot in his chute. Like I said in my original posting on this subject, when your blood boils, you may want to really kill someone.

plasticjunkie - A Higher Call is one of the best books I've ever read. I applaud Franz for what he did - protect and lead Charlie and his crew to safety unbeknownst to his superiors.

Having never flown an armed aircraft, I have absolutely no idea what I would do.

Fill my pants is probably my best and most honest answer.