Recasting kits.

the doog wrote:

Wirraway wrote: ps:  Doog, if I pay $1.69 on iTunes to download a manowar track, how much of that does the band get ? About $.03.

reminds me of that seinfeld episode.  I can see Karl here sitting for hours signing a billion 3 cent checks.

Wirraway wrote:

ps:  Doog, if I pay $1.69 on iTunes to download a manowar track, how much of that does the band get ?

SMEAGOL !!

THIS IS THE F.B.I.  !!   COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP....... ER, NO,......COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS FULL OF ILLEGAL RECAST MODEL KITS !!

WE HAVE A ROAD ROLLER IN THE CARPARK READY TO CRUSH YOUR CONTRABAND KITS !!

WE KNOW WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE FELLA !!

ps:  Doog, if I pay $1.69 on iTunes to download a manowar track, how much of that does the band get ?

Understood, Karl, that's what I was trying to say, you're just ahead of the curve withthe technology.

ajlafleche wrote:

smeagol the vile wrote: since your so vocal on the subject let me ask you this, if I have an entire band's diskography over vinyl, casette, cd, and digital media is it wrong to download copies of the ones I have on non digital format, so I could listen to it on an iPod, or should I be tied to my turntable to listen to their music Fair use allows you to copy music for your personal use. The courts. incluidng SCOTUS, have weighed in on this. You are not allowed to distribute this in any way nor make any profit from it. From a strictly legal standpoint, when you buy a CD, tape, record, or any other form of recording, you are buying a license to play and replay that music. The same applies to books, movies, software or other copyrighted material. Read the copyright statement in a book and see what your rights are concerning copying the book, in whole or in part. Software, especially when it came on relatively fragile floppy disks, specifically stated you were allowed to make a back-up copy for yourself. Most of what comes on CD now, is copy protected. Unfortunately, models can't be copy-protected thta way. Here's your bottom line.You've done something that is objectively wrong. Maybe you didn't understand it at the time. Several of us have explained the reasons why it's wrong.Your redemption comes from opting not to continue down this path. The alternative is the likelihood of becoming a pariah on this site. Your choice.

The equivalent would be like saying "Well, I own a Honda Accord, but now that they have released an electric hybrid version of it, I can just go take one off the lot for free"! Or think of it this way--when they switched from albums and cassettes to compact discs, were you able to go into a store and take a CD for free as long as you showwed them your album cover?

NO!--same thing here.

It doesn't work that way.

It costs a band a significant amount of money to re-digitize an anaolg recording of an old album. These albums must be remastered and reformatted. That means studio time, engineer's fees, money for advertsising or promotion. There are licensing fees to allow your song on a site like iTunes, for instance. You can't just stick it up there for free!

If you own an iPod or MP3 player, there are only two legal ways to get your music on it--transfer it into your computer from your own legally purchased compact disc, or buy it online. ANYTHING ELSE IS STEALING.

smeagol the vile wrote:

since your so vocal on the subject let me ask you this, if I have an entire band's diskography over vinyl, casette, cd, and digital media is it wrong to download copies of the ones I have on non digital format, so I could listen to it on an iPod, or should I be tied to my turntable to listen to their music

Fair use allows you to copy music for your personal use. The courts. incluidng SCOTUS, have weighed in on this. You are not allowed to distribute this in any way nor make any profit from it. From a strictly legal standpoint, when you buy a CD, tape, record, or any other form of recording, you are buying a license to play and replay that music. The same applies to books, movies, software or other copyrighted material. Read the copyright statement in a book and see what your rights are concerning copying the book, in whole or in part. Software, especially when it came on relatively fragile floppy disks, specifically stated you were allowed to make a back-up copy for yourself. Most of what comes on CD now, is copy protected. Unfortunately, models can't be copy-protected thta way.

Here's your bottom line.You've done something that is objectively wrong. Maybe you didn't understand it at the time. Several of us have explained the reasons why it's wrong.Your redemption comes from opting not to continue down this path. The alternative is the likelihood of becoming a pariah on this site.

Your choice.

smeagol the vile wrote:

since your so vocal on the subject let me ask you this, if I have an entire band's diskography over vinyl, casette, cd, and digital media is it wrong to download copies of the ones I have on non digital format, so I could listen to it on an iPod, or should I be tied to my turntable to listen to their music

The bands have to pay HEFTY FEES to get that music transfered to digital format I KNOW!!!! They have to be re-mastered, and re-packeged as such. ALL THAT COSTS MONEY!!

If you want the CONVENIENCE of listening to it on an iPod, then YOU can buy a record player, or digitizing cassette desk--they do make them--to transfer those albums, cassettes, whatever--into digitized format. 

That way, YOU have invested YOUR money into the convenience of making digital copies of them. It would be unethical and illegal to simply avail yourself of them for free when that band is paying THEIR money to give YOU the convenience of listening to them in a digital format!

Here's some good advice to stick in your brain, and words to live by--"Nothing is free--and if it is, it's probably ILLEGAL!"

smeagol the vile wrote:

I have purchased, once, a set of recast figures that wernt legal ones, and that is because after all my searching I could not find the kits anywhere online, except for the person who had the recasts (anime figures are hard to come buy after first run)

Honestly, I jsut cannot fathom how you convince yourself that this is acceptabe behavior just because you wanted it soooo bad! 

ajlafleche wrote:

Time to wake up and smell the roses. You are engaged in criminal activity. In fact, you may have put yourself in some level of jeopardy, having posted on-line for the world to see that you have been engaged in violations of copyright law, like all those file sharing kids who thought they were doing nothing wrong by downloading all the "free" music.

ABSOLUTLEY.

Steven, it is NOT only "my feelings about downloading". It has to do with my personal ethics and morals about theft; about stealing from people--no matter the circuitous avenues that you take to procure what you think you so deperately want or "need". Doesn't matter if it's illegal downloading, slipping something into your pocket on the sly, or buying illegally recast or copied products. There's no justification, no "degree" of wrong in it for my money. 

You either see it as "wrong", or you steal. Simple.

smeagol the vile wrote:

Well, the way the anime kits go, its a bit diffrent then other things, once the anime comes out, they make the resin garage kits, but onces the anime stops, unless they get specific requests, and in number, for the kit to be remade, it doesnt, and even sometimes requests dont get it remade, or the number is equal to the amount of requests, so one person wont be enough to fire up the molds. Thats why you have alot of recast anime figure shops, to be honest. I have purchased, once, a set of recast figures that wernt legal ones, and that is because after all my searching I could not find the kits anywhere online, except for the person who had the recasts (anime figures are hard to come buy after first run)   But we all konw your stance on buying bootleged stuff Karl

That's called justification. Just because the only copy is illegal doesn't make it any less vile, onerous and illegal to buy pirated copies. Back in the day, the nuns would have had a field day with that post!

Say your favorite music artist has chosen not to release live albums or videos of his concerts. Does that make it RIGHT for someone to sneak a camera in and record the performance and resell it? I think not.

Animes are hard to get after the first run? Too #@<&ing bad. Buying these pirated items is no different from walking into the LHS with a big overcoat and dropping models and supplies into hidden cavities. Would you do that even if you KNEW you wouldn't get caught?

Time to wake up and smell the roses. You are engaged in criminal activity. In fact, you may have put yourself in some level of jeopardy, having posted on-line for the world to see that you have been engaged in violations of copyright law, like all those file sharing kids who thought they were doing nothing wrong by downloading all the "free" music.

The previous poster doing the studio scale model with copied parts is also treading the same thin ice as you, perhaps even farther out, since it sounds like a commercial venture. The original Star Wars, Battelstar Galactica, etc. special effects, were indeed made from model parts, but the parts were from original kits, not multiple illegal copies.

Enforcing copyright law is very difficult and expensive. Thieves know it and rip off people who do not have the capital (and I mean capital—the stuff Microsoft and other megacorporations still have, if they are even marginally well run) or the time and other resources necessary to catch them and prosecute a case against them. The little guy has three choices: prosecute and go out of business; don't prosecute and maybe go out of business from lost profit; or come up with a new product that will pay the bills until it is also bootlegged.

It is perfectly legal to make a copy of most things for personal non-profit use, or for educational purposes. But if you are compensated for it, even only for the cost of making the copy, or you trade for it, or even for "good will," you have crossed the line.

I've had my work stolen, once. Having physical property or money stolen from you is bad. It makes you angry, you feel violated. But when it's your intellectual property, hell hath no fury to hold a pale candle to what you feel.

Well, the way the anime kits go, its a bit diffrent then other things, once the anime comes out, they make the resin garage kits, but onces the anime stops, unless they get specific requests, and in number, for the kit to be remade, it doesnt, and even sometimes requests dont get it remade, or the number is equal to the amount of requests, so one person wont be enough to fire up the molds.

Thats why you have alot of recast anime figure shops, to be honest.

I have purchased, once, a set of recast figures that wernt legal ones, and that is because after all my searching I could not find the kits anywhere online, except for the person who had the recasts (anime figures are hard to come buy after first run)

But we all konw your stance on buying bootleged stuff Karl

Smeagol, if you KNOW that certain companies are selling recast--ILLEGALLY recast--figures, then I would urge you to NOT patronize them. You are essentially dealing with thieves.

These people are stealing from people who make their living by spending the time and effort to craft and sculpt these very figures that you love to build and own. If you buy stolen products, you are really cutting your own throat, because if you remove the profit motive from the people who make the original items,then you willbe quashing the incentive for people to make new ones. WHo wants to spend time and money to make something when they're not going to reap their rightful profit from it? If you're buying ANYTHING stolen in this surreptitious manner, you are not only breaking the law, you are hurting the very industry of the genre that you love.

How do people get away with it? Simple--criminals have a myriad of ways to disguise their activities. It IS possible that they share the profit somehow through some deal or licensing agreement, but if you're suspicious of their products, you should enquire what the legitimacy of their products is before you buy.

When we went into Russia, we simply could not believe the amount of bootlegged material that people were setting up and selling outside our shows. Cheaply made garbage, but selling it for cheap, so people were buying it. There was no way to actually stop them because "everybody" was in on the take. SO we cut a deal with some of the biggest ones--we allowed them to sell inside the doors, and then took 50% of their profit. They sold a lot, and we at least got paid for their thieving of us. Not a perfect arrangement, but better than nothing.

It's possible that these sites have some sort of arrangement of this type with the original sculptors, but not likely. The best thing you can do is to not patronize this type of illegal immoral behavior, and know that you are legitimately supporting the people who produce these models out of the same love with which you build them.

smeagol the vile wrote:

then how do companies get away with only selling recast figures, alot of anime figure sits only sell recast, not always licensed at that.

They are acting illegally, plain and simple.

The end result is the original company looses so much money, they go out of business. Then no new product becomes available. 

Kind of like asking how did the mob go about extorting protection money from businesses in their "territories?" How do drug dealers go about selling controlled substances? How does any criminal get away with his/her illegal business? Many of these pirates are from places that refuse to enforce copyright law.

It's unjustifiable, wrong, illegal and unethical.

then how do companies get away with only selling recast figures, alot of anime figure sits only sell recast, not always licensed at that.

Also, your link was to an auction thats over, and whatever ebay you use, thats not the Us one the Us one has 0

the doog wrote:

smeagol the vile wrote: As far as finding someone goes, the guy whos selling it was commissioned to build these and recast a ton for someone as a dio (whoever comissioned was nuts) but they backed out, which is why hes selling the kits, though, he says hell be willing to cast me a bunch for cost of materials. smeagol, I hate to tell you this, but if you are receiving any of these "recast" kits, then you are now in possession of stolen property. You could be arrested if this guy is investigated. It's no different than buying "burned" CD's, or bootlegged DVDs. He brokek the law by recasting these kits. It doesn't matter if he owned the kits before he cast them--by selling them as part of a diorama, he is technically breaking the law, and I suspect that possibly the buyer opted out when he mayhave realized that? In nay case, if this guy is the "business" of recasting entire kits, I would give him a wide berth. If there is an investigation into him, you could wind up getting caught in the web as a recipient of stolen property.

Amen to that. The person who engaged him to recast them is complicit with the illegal act. All of the stuff he has is illegal. If you bought/have them, you are in possession of stolen (intellectual) property and if you recast them, you are still breaking the law.

I raised a rhetorical question about Infinity Shape's Last of the Mohicans figure here. This is a great figure that disappeared when Infinity Shape suddenly went out of business. Of interest are comments from sculptors, such as Alan Ball, who makes a living creating masters.

smeagol the vile wrote:

As far as finding someone goes, the guy whos selling it was commissioned to build these and recast a ton for someone as a dio (whoever comissioned was nuts) but they backed out, which is why hes selling the kits, though, he says hell be willing to cast me a bunch for cost of materials.

He brokek the law by recasting these kits. It doesn't matter if he owned the kits before he cast them--by selling them as part of a diorama, he is technically breaking the law, and I suspect that possibly the buyer opted out when he mayhave realized that?

In nay case, if this guy is the "business" of recasting entire kits, I would give him a wide berth. If there is an investigation into him, you could wind up getting caught in the web as a recipient of stolen property.

Why go the recasting route, these kits are finable on Ebay for reasonable prices:

http://cgi.ebay.com.sg/MIXED-2-KITS-ACADEMY-HYDRALISK-MARINE-PLASTIC-KTS_W0QQitemZ190292199730QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1193QQcmdZViewItem

Thank you for clarifying your intentions, Mark.

Back to the bench.

the doog wrote:

...Uh, yeah, but you're overlooking that I didn't run before I could walk. ... ... Not real sage advice, in my view, to urge him forth with idealistic platitudes that are going to cost him a lot of money--which, as Hans has pointed out--we all know he doesn't have, without trying to steer him down a more cost-effective and realistic path which will better inform him as to both his abilities, and the complexities of casting--and then he can better judge where he stands as far as his finances, his resolve, and his expectations....

Karl, I'm sorry to correct you again, but if you had paid better attention, you would have observed that I was indeed responding with sound advice for the typical beginner - which included picking up a book geared for the beginner, which would explain everything a beginner needs to know before setting out. (How exactly did you miss that?!) Further, I posted him a link to a (relatively) inexpensive starter set, which met his limited budget.(Again, how did you miss that?!?)

As Smeagol confirmed, I never expected he was going to attempt to cast an entire kit right off the bat - that would be an unrealistic expectation, and did not need to be mentioned.

Further, it is a shame that you brought only more discouragement, and offered him nothing in the way of helpful advice on how he can get started on his journey. Instead, right off the bat you tell him he's "over his head". Ouch. I would think a modeler of your exceptional skill would have more to say in the way of positive advice or encouragement.

smeagol the vile wrote:

woah, woah, woah, who ever said I was going to attempt doing the kit at my first go?  you guys know me, and I that stupid?  Of course im going to practce, there are alot of weapons and figure kits I'd like to have multiple copies of for hacking purposes, especially like that esci partisans kit.  I also have a HUGE tub of junk and scrap for scratchbuilding that I could use, I'm in no way going to start off with this rare kit, what do I look like, a singer?

Good man, Steve! In that case, go slow, learn, and save those kits until you feel confident that you won't screw up those rare gems in the pocess and waste a lot of cash!

ModelNerd wrote:

the doog wrote: ...I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. ... Excuse me, but everyone's "in way over their head" before they try something new, no? When you first picked up a guitar, you were in way over your head. But you learned by doing, and then you were no longer in over your head, eh?

"Everything worthwhile takes time".--best advice I ever got. I still give it today.

Occasionally, one of my first or second-year guitar students will come to me and ask me if I know anywhere that they can record their own CD. Mind you, they're still only learning, do not have anywhere near what could be called a reasonable "command" of the instrument, and they're playing on $200.00 just-above-crap instruments.

And yet they want to spend $1,000 or so to record a CD when they barely know how to compose songs. Instead of spending that money (for kids who have little to begin with) on a CD that will embarrass them in two years, I advise them to spend their money on better equipment, and take the proper time to actually become a musician first before wasting that hard-earned money. 

It's a question of putting the cart before the horse. Smeagol wants to do a full kit cast--without ever having cast even so much as a jerry can before, or even knowing the stuff he needs to begin? Not real sage advice, in my view, to urge him forth with idealistic platitudes that are going to cost him a lot of money--which, as Hans has pointed out--we all know he doesn't have, without trying to steer him down a more cost-effective and realistic path which will better inform him as to both his abilities, and the complexities of casting--and then he can better judge where he stands as far as his finances, his resolve, and his expectations. 

Almost every one of my students who has taken my advice has returned to thank me when they finally could, and did, record a CD or song that they were proud to distribute.Though I doubt smeagol would be "embarrassed" of his efforts, without some expeimentation before attemp such a complex effort,he might well rue the day that he embarked on this endeavor with more wishful thinking than relevant wisdom.

But hey, it's your choice, smeagol. I myself would personally content myself with having the kits in my possession, and know that I could just hang on to them until I get some confidence under my belt with regard to casting, and then I could always cast them in one or two years, if it even took that long?

the doog wrote:

...I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. ...

Excuse me, but everyone's "in way over their head" before they try something new, no? When you first picked up a guitar, you were in way over your head. But you learned by doing, and then you were no longer in over your head, eh?

Smeagol, again I say don't let anyone discourage you. If you have the confidence and desire to try something new such as casting, go for it. It's not rocket science, and it's really not that difficult, overall. You have all the support and help you will need to be successful at it.

ajlafleche wrote:

smeagol the vile wrote: no I really appreciate the tips Hans, where would I go about finding someone to recast it for me and how much would one cost Don't expect a reputable person to do this for you. They would be violating copyright laws. Doing it yourself for your own use is a gray area as far as legality goes and giving, selling, exchanging, or distributling these in any way is clearly a violation of copyright. Take a look around some of the other nodeling sites to see how pirates are reviled in the hobby, even for OOP stuff.

You'd be skirting all kinds of legal boundaries here.

I also agree with Hans that you're in way over your head here before you're even in up to your ankles. If you're truly trying to cast kits this rare, you might run the danger of ruining the actual kit or losing/ruining the parts before you even build one of them.

If you have one rob, that would be amazing.

As far as the copyright laws, I know people dislike recasters, but if these are for personal use and to build myself I dont see a problem, especially if there discontinued kits that you can BARLEY even find info about online if you look hard