'RIVIT COUNTING' -EPITOME OR SCOURGE?

ugoat Thank s for the input I feel like some are lookin and formulating replies .I think you are dead on abouthe internet and survival skills ,never hurts to have a personal firewall up..........

i meant to add also, i've only got ten fingers, the feets are actually hooves, so after ten i tend to sand the rivits off...

Looking back on the replies here I see one from an art major who made good point about the fact that no critique and gladhanding only would be quite useless to someone seeking all input ,could even lead a guy astray. I was just laughing my bag off on the average age post ,funny as hell, i think I saw that guy on the freeway............................

PaintsWithBrush

Most people include a "critiques/suggestions are welcomed/sought" when they post their works. This can be an open door for the "rivet counter" to come storming in.

There are people on this site who have openly stated that they do not give "atta boy" or "back slapper" responses to posted works. If they are not allowed to "critique", they will stay silent.

 

If your goal is to be a force to be reckoned with on the contest circuit or to gain employment in a museum, the "rivet counter" could provide a valuable service in pushing you to the most historically accurate representation possible.

Contest judges are few & far between that know enough about historical accuracy to be able to judge much in that arena.  As a judge, I have my own areas of expertise (WW2 German uniforms and US Army uniforms & equipment from 1940 through 2005 and WW2 USAAF and Early USAF camouflage & markings), but it doesn't mean much if I'm judging automotive, ships, or sci-fi... 

Judges (should) mainly concern themselves with the overall build and painting, looking for basic stuff like seams, sand-scratches, mis-aligned/missing parts, glue marks, paint flaws, etc, and don't know (or should ignore) that this P-51B has markings for a unit that only flew P-47s, or this Me-109E has the wrong tread pattern for 1940, or that the Panzer IV's NCO commander on that dio over there has infantry waffenfarbe on his shoulder marks and the infantryman walking alonside has an MP-40 in his hand but is wearing K-98 ammo pouches on his belt.  (Stuff like that drives me nuts, but if it ain't on the judging criteria sheet, it doesn't mean anything..  On the other hand, just because it's not judgeable doesn't mean you, as a builder, have a license to do that kinda stuff either..) A good modeler will always strive to be better with historical accuracy on historical subjects, IMHO...  That said, you're absolutely right about rivet-counters "storming in", PWB... They move about in groups at contests, two or three of them, and find something to b*tch about with every display...  Plus, there's always the modeling-version of "Cliff Claven" (The Mailman know-it-all from the TV series "Cheers" for those of you too young to know much about 80's sit-coms) in a group of non-modelers who are there just to look around... That guy's the worst kind of Rivet-Counter.. He's stupid on top of being an A**hole...  But he's fun to watch...

If, on the other hand, your goal is to fill your shelf with builds that make YOU happy and your idea of happy isn't wedded to pure historical accuracy, then "rivet counters" are a bunch of blowhards who need not inject themselves into the conversation.

The "Do whatever you want to do if it makes you happy" mentality should be discouraged among modelers who ask for comments/critique, IMHO...   I see this kind of response all the time, usually after five or six posts in reply to the request for comments...  I see it as fall-out from the so-called "Modern" theme of "everyone's a winner, there are no losers" philosophy that's all too prevailent in our 'enlightened" society... Anyone over 40 knows that that is pure 100%, Grade-A Felgercarb in the real world and results in the classic "Failure to Launch" more often than not, and in the modeling world, it's an invitation to "failure to progress" (if becoming a better modeler is your goal, that is)...  That said, obviously "Whimsical" builds should be treated as such, but the rivet-counter will take pure delight in ignoring a "fun build" and will mercilessly rip it apart even though the builder (and everyone else) knows what's "wrong" with it anyway...  So you're bang-on with your remark about "inviting rivet-counters, PWB..

One more thing... The Rivet-Counter has a tendency to disappear from a thread if he's proven wrong about his beef, or worse, he'll continue to prattle on about things and continue being pecksniffian about the build... 

BTW... I HAVE been know to get bogged-down in the details at times, so If any of y'all catch me being a rivet counter, PLEASE feel free to call me on it... I'm many things, but arrogant or hypocrticial, I'm not, or least I try not to be...  In the same vein though, forget about asking me to quit being grumpy... Ain't gonna happen...

Many of the points that Hans makes I have to agree with.....I will stick to bullets for my rant,

You have to be THICK skinned when you post.

I can tend to be a detal freak....but like Hans I judge contests and it is not the details that makes the winner, it isthe well built well executed and well finished model that wins.

Here to some extent I disagree with Hans....I build what make me happy....the level of detial from build to build may vary, based on how I feel

I check my ego at the door so I invite comments and listen to the all...good or bad....and ignore the rectums....you can spot them a mile away

I go to shows and enter models but I go as a social event.....if I win great if not I had a great day with a bunch of modelers.

I think of the fact that in the army "there is no explosive expert, the last thing you need to learn will kill you"........No one is perfect. We all learn from each other and always continue to learn.

Lastly, if you want to get detail information....do research....go to other sites like Missing Lynx where you can ask historians like Steve Zaloga question.....but most of all remember this is a HOBBY....it is supposed to be fun.

Rounds Complete!!

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

I agree that online, many rivet counters seem overly "holier than thou". Tsk, tsk, you built the ancient Monogram kit and not the newer Trumpeter one in their eyes.

To each their own, if you enjoy constructing a box shaker, good for you. If you enjoy pouring hours into teaching an old dog to look like a new kit, good for you too.

If that rivet counter points out an error on your old dog, take it in stride. You did your best and missed a spot, nobody's perfect. Or maybe that issue just didn't matter to you. What's the worst that has happened, he hurt your whittle feewings?

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

Oh yeah.. Sure.. We oughtta thank 'em for kits that cost 70-80-140.00 dollars?  You gotta be kiddin' me, herr Major..  

Although that subject is an entirely different rant, and I won't derail the thread by going on about it,  I don't think rivet-counters are owed anything, as they do, IMHO, more harm than good in places like this one... If they confined thier talking points to between them selves and the manufacturers, then fine... But they don't..

But here's the shirt front & back... Maybe they can give 'em out at shows..

Hans von Hammer

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

Oh yeah.. Sure.. We oughtta thank 'em for kits that cost 70-80-140.00 dollars?  You gotta be kiddin' me, herr Major..  

Although that subject is an entirely different rant, and I won't derail the thread by going on about it,  I don't think rivet-counters are owed anything, as they do, IMHO, more harm than good in places like this one... If they confined thier talking points to between them selves and the manufacturers, then fine... But they don't..

 

Haven't been a major in a half a decade, but yes, they've given modelers the option to buy the $100 kit. They did not make the old kits go away. As a matter of fact, everytime the latest uber $100 kit comes out on a long-neglected subject, all the ancient dinosaurs kits hit eBay at rock bottom prices.

For instance, the M50 Ontos was available as either the 50 year old Renwal kit (about $75) or the Revell 1983 rebox that could fetch around $50-75 as well. The only other option was a couple of resin kits that were both over $100.

A couple of modelers who were fans of the vehicle worked with various museums and restoration enthusiasts and accumulated countless measurements, restoration photos and walk arounds of the finished vehicles.

Academy jumped on the bandwagon and produced a brand new tooled kit (have one sitting in front of me now) that I paid $25 delivered off of eBay.

Now given the choice between the formerly $50-75 50 yr old kit (have one and a half of those as well) and the $25 brand new kit, I know which one I prefer.

And if building older kits is your cup of tea, you can probably find the old Renwal or Revell kits more readily today and at a much more reasonable price than you could before all thanks to the dreaded rivet counters that helped produce the new kit.

Keep it going men .Some good points coming up and hearing all the different ideas and opinions is good .Please keep in mind ,I just woke up and thought almost immediatly (after feeding the feline masters) about the guy s driven off here by the labeling or being mistaken in thier critique or posting.They would need a thicker skin. But I would consider this 'harm' done. An attack on here is not really warranted ,and rushing to someones defence , well , howd you get that job? Another post shows the average age on here to be 39 or there abouts all grown men ,albeit playing with models, but still GROWN MEN. Thank you all for the participation ,perhaps the quick to label will read this  and take some measure of heed ,I think it may have had at least one guy return to the forums here and thats good..................

'Hans von Hammer',

"Cliff Clavins", I love it. 

As far as the "model for themselves" crowd asking for critiques, I think that would probably be limited to the quality of the workmanship rather than any sense of accuracy. Also, those guys (who I would count myself among) aren't looking for any kinds of prizes.

There's nothing wrong with the commenter who offers up friendly advice. That's why someone like me puts up a project. For example, your advice about Luftwaffe ground crew uniforms (Black instead of the Blue I had used) was appreciated, as well as the cordial style in which you offered it.

You have a valid point with the "everybody's a winner" attitude that has swept over America. Competitions are just that: Competitions. What's the point of participating if the best don't stand out? Racing has this same attitude. Look at the old Formula 1 points system. They only paid back six places and there was a premium placed on winning. Now, every sanctioning body pays points back through the whole field and there is no incentive to keep moving forward. 

I also find myself in agreement with 'Rob Gronovius' with the superior "straight from the box" details in the current era kits. I know many people lament the cost that is associated with these improvements but the new molds cost and the manufacturer has to make a profit.

Nice discussion here. It has been enjoyable to read.

Regards, PWB.

Thank s for adding some more input .As for the level of skill/satisfaction question it is a personal thing and contest modeling is not far off that.I was astounded (almost) to see the best in show at our last contest(IPMS) was straight oob!!  Superb modeling skills ,but when I commented that (P-47) there were no brake lines or antenna wire,thinking these would be by rote ,  I was told 'better to leave it out rather than get it wrong"!!!! I learned that day that modeling skills, over accuracy , win contests .This did not deter me in my builds as I look around at what is 'acceptable' ,disregard this ,and try for a higher level but as said in my first post on this ,that may just be me!

krow113

Thank s for adding some more input .As for the level of skill/satisfaction question it is a personal thing and contest modeling is not far off that.I was astounded (almost) to see the best in show at our last contest(IPMS) was straight oob!!  Superb modeling skills ,but when I commented that (P-47) there were no brake lines or antenna wire,thinking these would be by rote ,  I was told 'better to leave it out rather than get it wrong"!!!! I learned that day that modeling skills, over accuracy , win contests .This did not deter me in my builds as I look around at what is 'acceptable' ,disregard this ,and try for a higher level but as said in my first post on this ,that may just be me!

It is the skill of the builder doing the basics right that wins contests, not the bells and whistles of the kits. I've won a couple of trophies with ancient Airfix kits; one was a 1/32 scale VW Beetle and the other a 1/76 scale LCM III (before the latest kits from Dragon and Italeri).

not to be argumentative, but some of the things thrown at the Rivet Counter's feet did not occur *because* of RC's,,,,,they were happening before the internet came along

model costs were already going up before Win 95 and the general use of forums to share information on these sites,,,,due to inflation and new molding technology

"Rex's rules" of building have never been the same as judging criteria at a show, for sure,,,,,,,IPMS rules in theory should let you win with a Purple and Pink camo'd USS New Jersey,,,or a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman,,,,,and in OOB you are NOT allowed to add brake lines to a plane, or other extra details like that,,,,only seatbelts

if we need RC's or not is an easy question to answer,,,,,do you want ME to answer if someone asks what the travel cradle for the barrel of an M-109 should look like,,,,,or Hans? (trust me, you want Hans, not Rex, lol), not to be elitist,,,,,,but, just to pick two names,,,,,,I'd rather have Bernie answer any USAF Phantom question I might come up with, than Hans, only because if I have to ask something, that means the question is coming from a guy looking for nuances with a pretty good education of the Navair Phantoms, not general knowledge (just an example, Hans, please don't be offended by this)

for the $10 kits from 50 year old molds,,,,rivet counting your own build only makes sense if you are trying to build a jem for yourself,,,,,,if you just want a model on your shelf,,,,,a newer mold might be cheaper to build from, when you total all the parts and hours it might take to bring that oldie up to new mold standards,,,,,,,if you don't rivet count those kits,,,they can make some pretty impressive models, too,,,that's all on the builder,,,,,,,but, if you are going to start with the Revell 1/72 P-51D from the sixties, and want it "done to the nines",,,,,you're going to be chatting with a few RC's in your quest

oh, and just a little note, here,,,,it's popular to say "okay, tear the kit apart, but only if you have a fix already to post with your critique",,,,sounds fair,,,,,but, what if *I'm* posting to point out the flaw in hopes that someone might have an idea of how to fix it?,,,,even RC's should be able to publicly ask other modelers for suggestions, you know?

the "good RC's" share their info with you for the cost of a thank you,,,,,,,the bad ones cut down your builds online or in person, and maybe are the guys that talk and don't have a completed model on any shelf in their house

haha, enough of my rambling thoughts

Rex

edit, left out a line

there are 4 questions commonly/constantly asked on forums,,,,,anyone that gives a correct answer to those could be considered an RC by anyone that didn't know the answer (even if that "non RC" gave an answer, but was incorrect)

I couldn't care less what rivet counters did for a manufacturer to help them release a new kit, Rob..   I also said I wasn't wasn't gonna derail the tread by ranting about kit prices...

What my beef with 'em is is in modeling forums and on the contest circuit...  No matter what a guy does to his model, the RC will find something wrong with the way you built it or what the manufacturer got wrong and that you didn't go out and buy the freakin' blueprints and correct the fact that the fuselage is too long by a scale two inches and the rudder has one too many ribs in it, or the track pad on the left track-link number 39 is wrong, and delite in a long, drawn-out post or disertation about it, with photos and links to 12 different websites showing dimensions and specs proving his point...  

He also never tells you how HE corrected it,  because he probably never built it...  Hell, there was a guy in here about a year ago that ran down everyone's build because they didn't use 5 pounds of brass after-market parts on the kit they built and would insult the modelers personally too...  I wanted to choke the living sh*t outta that guy, believe me...  He was of absolutely no help at all, and was a freakin' waste of oxygen, IMNSHO...  A more perfect example of a rivet counter never existed....

That's more of a pseudo-expert joy sucker than a rivet counter. Most rivet counters post in progress works, their observations on the kit error and how they are correcting it. You normally see their WIP consisting of grabbing parts from several kits (sprockets better in kit A, turret from kit B, details from kit C), scratch built corrective pieces they've poured resin copies of, bit and pieces from several PE sets and half of their PE pieces are scraped together from the fret scraps.

I run across several self-proclaimed experts. Especially after the start of OIF, anyone who took photos of a local National Guard Abrams, owned the Squadron in action title and thumbed through the Hunnicutt book at the public library thought they were an Abrams expert. One even proclaimed the GAS opening was the spent brass ejection port for the coax. I've forgotten more about the Abrams than they'll ever know and I don't consider myself an expert at all. Just a little more familiar with the vehicle than the average model builder.

Real rivet counters are amassing research information for the manufacturers informing them that they just can't toss in bits from kit A and B to create version C.

The pseudo-experts are tsk tsking you because you built the latest Dragon panzer OOB or you used the Eduard PE instead of the Aber PE or heaven forbid, did not use the Fruil metal tracks. In the armor world, they tend to hang out in the panzer section.

We used to call them the Joy Sucking Modeling Nazis in the old USENET rec.model.scale and I refer you back to my example, most don't know what they are really talking about. They just parrot what they read or hear and are often times wrong and rarely sociable.

hey, G,,,,,,I think you have identified one of the main problems with these discussions

we need some kind of list of terms, so that being called an RC is not an automatic insult,,,,,,it's sort of funny to me that a discussion board that supports a mag named "Fine",,,,,is not "supposed" to be used to discuss details and factual data of details

the real truth is that "some RC helping Dragon get the tiny details right",,,,,,,didn't drive up the costs to the guy that only likes to build old Monogram molds,,,,,or the detail level expected of the Monogram builder

if anyone that types out "don't use ablative coating and 2 yellow stripes on bombs on a Navy jet before the Carrier fires" is an RC,,,,,,then, yup, I'm one of those, simply because I wasn't in until 1975,,,,,,,even though my intent is to help a guy to not make a mistake on his jet (and it's a "free fix",,,,costs the same to paint it semigloss with one stripe as it does to paint it flat and bumpy with 2 stripes),,,,,,,,same with "don't build a VF-32 F-4J,,,,,,they never had them"

to me, the difference is whether a person will tell you where you can find the info or not,,,,,,If I just say "in 1979, Phantoms were Gloss, not Flat on the upper surfaces",,,,,that's different than if I add "and you can see the spec in Monogram Color Guide Vol 4",,,,one approach is "elitist", giving only a small kernel of knowledge,,,,the other lets the person know where to look for himself (giving a fish or teaching to fish)

I don't know,,,,,,this is seeming pointless lately,,,,,,,there were 4 threads on different sites this week about how hated "we" are,,,,one got deleted by that site's owner,,,,it got too nasty,,,,,,,but,,,,,,,how nasty would y'all call me if during that same time all the threads were answered "they were gray",,,or "use putty", "make some yourself",,,,,and "that was released in a kit once",,,,,,without the details?

Rob and Hans : Good interaction and relpies from both of you .Agent G same to you and thanks for bringing us back around to the original meaning of the post. A dfinition of these terms and meanings is a good thing ,however I do ask that someone defending thier use of the term reply here. I think a 'rivit -counter' may be someone ,as Rob states , who percieves himself to be qualified and may go overboard in thier enthusiasim .This may lead others to want to paste the label on him.I think of myself as a 'contest modeler' ,this has happened because of working for myself ,I cant afford to take any chances with materials and procedures , and developed ways to get the job done. I let this attitude ,or approach , my due diligence , wash over onto my model building(good pun there!) This was of no voluntary choice by me ,just good intentions. Last night ,thinking about all this and what it means ,I did relax on adding parts to a 1/9 scale Linkert carb for my bobber wip. I anly added 16 parts to it...............oh god help me I'm a rivit counter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excellent replies and input from you guysplease keep it coming.

Tarn ship Thanks for your continued input .I would clarify one item for you ,the model I mentioned that won our Best in Show was built oob with no additional am kits .It was not in the oob categorty it was in the large scale aircraft category.Please send or reply with the other sites you mention as I would like to check them out .

geez, that is just plain cool

I'd bet there isn't a guy on any of these sites that wouldn't like to build OOB well enough to take home Best of Show with one, against all the "open comp" models

I can't even enter OOB,,,,,I build jets and like weapons on my planes, pretty sure a Phantom with empty pylons wouldn't stand a chance, lol

I don't think we're supposed to link to other message boards here, or I would

Tship- other than ranting about politics or showing any anger we can do what we want,I have been linked to other sites numerous times on here .Please go ahead and send them as I feel it would add to our discussion . As for the plane I felt that the builder was takin no chances and built to formula , a good strategy and obviously a winning one.Although its not all about that. My Earle fig took third but was the talk of the show because of my base and obvious research .See him on Resin Illuminati a good site for discerning modelers. My fig was built to my liking and I learned that 'formula modeling' wins the day.UhOh -did I just create another label ,dammit Jim Im a modeler not a doctor!

I've read through this entire thread, and have to admit to being a little confused about what the conversation is about.  Are we just trying to define what a Rivet Counter is?  If that is the question, I doubt you'll ever find consensus because, as a lot of the posts have already mentioned, that is subjective.

I look at the title of the thread and see 'Rivit (-et) Counting - Epitome or scourge?' and immediately think 'epitome' of what?  Of all that is wrong with the hobby?  Of the passion and detail and precision that some modelers are able to achieve in their builds?

I mean, what is rivet counting, anyways?  Is it giving unsolicited advice on a build or a kit?  Or is it giving overly nitpicky comments about a build or a kit?  OR is it the manner and spirit with which comments are offered?

Case in point - I have a background in mortars.  I was a gun-bunnie, I was a team and section leader, an FDC chief, a Fire Support Coordinator and a Platoon Commander.  Like Rob, who has forgottten more about the Abrams than most people will ever know, I suspect the same could be said of me regarding indirect fire and fire support coordination.  The result of all that un-neccessary personal information is that I have a couple of pet-peeves.  For one, I tend to notice when people build a kit of a direct fire weapon (a Pak-40, for example) with the cleaning rods painted in the red and white pattern of firing stakes.  Typically I'll offer a, 'Hey, I like your Pak-40....  by the way, one thing you might want to keep in mind for you next build....'

Is that me being a rivet counter?  I don't intend it that way.  I offer my observations sincerely and with the hope they will be taken that way and (maybe) used to improve a future build.  Am I going to go up one side and down the other of someone for making that mistake?  Absolutely not.  Still, despite how I intend my comments, I cannot control how they are perceived.  If I touch a nerve on the builder of said Pak-40, and he gets his pantaloons in a bunch and starts labeling me as a rivet counter, who is right??

I don't know, but this is a pretty interesting conversation...

Bbrown Thanks  for bringing us back to the essence of the discussion ,it takes replies like yours to get a real good idea of the discussion and its meaning. I believe on these forums that anyones expertise is a nesseccary and usefull thing. I also think that labeling someone with any kind of name is not proper and who is qualified to do that? If a critique is offered , and the way it is percieved is incorrect ,decorum and courtesy are the watchword , not an immediate ammo distribution and concentrated attack .As I stated I have recieved emails off here regarding this from people driven off by these attacks.Critisizm offered is not an attack ,its just an opinion.Granted there are ignorant rc's but what about those who just wanna contribute and are pounced on by the hyper-sensitive? If any thing this discussion is valuable in that the replies contain the repliers ,to me , valuable expertise. I know I will be coming back to this post time and time again to see who to ask about real-life info on a model I am building/considering. Offering anything leaves a person open for attack -I ask which of the two is correct? We are not tryna define an rc that is a personal  term used by others to describe someone they may not like because of offered critique. My intent was to let the name callers and labelers be aware that the quick draw is not always the best reaction.Thanks again for your reply.And thanks for correcting my spelling -does that make you a rc? See how perception is every thing regarding this matter.!!

Hans touched on that in one of his earlier posts, about commenting and not intending to come across as a rivet counter. (I meant to say something to you about that Hans and forgot to.)

Your last paragraph says it all. And as far as who is right, personally, I think you would be. Being the internet, one can only type so many ways to come off in one manner or another. So, the way in which the said statement is taken is completely up to the other person. If he decides you meant it in a nasty way then so be it, you know how you meant it and sometimes clarifying it just makes it worse. It's been mentioned that thick skin is needed on here and what you explained is a perfect example of when that is needed. Well ... not even thick skin, just a positive outlook. It's up to ones self on how they perceive something, whether they take it as a good comment or a bad one.

There are a few of you guys on here that have first hand experience with certain areas of military equipment and it's nice to have you guys around. You were there, you know what it looks like and how it's supposed to be. And most of you have kept your comments just like Hans and you both stated, in a kind manner. Offering the advice and hoping one take it to heart for their next build, or if possible, fixing their current wip. I would not classify either of you as rivet counters. You both use a friendly opening and/or closing line to start your conversation, it's how it has to be done on the internet I think. If I open the conversation by stating everything that is wrong and don't say anything else it will be perceived as coming off as `male reproductive organ-ish'.

Some of the guys on here are the complete opposite though. And I don't think we'll be hearing from any of them here for worry of being driven back to the bell tower. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your outlook, leaving rivet counters be and not starting up anything is probably for the better, for this is the internet and attitudes will run wild. You can be anyone you want on here. I really do try and keep my mindset open and my emotions reserved because arguing on here is confusing to say the least.

Will type more later, I need to get some groceries in this house before I starve!

Josh

FastasEF

 Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your outlook, leaving rivet counters be and not starting up anything is probably for the better, for this is the internet and attitudes will run wild.

 

Josh,

Interesting response - you seem to have put some thought into it.  Mostly I am right on board with you, but I as a little confused by what you meant in the above.  Are you saying that sometimes it is better to just not post anything for fear that the 'rivet counters' will rear their ugly heads and slap it down?  Could you expand on that thought a little for me?

Not trying to take this off in a completely different direction, but I also feel that we ourselves are responsible for the 'beast' that we call the rivet counter (at least as we apply it in a negative context, which many self-identified 'rivet counters' may find objectionable).  What I mean is this: several people made remarks on the first or second page of this post about how many (most?) people, when the post something, often have a concluding line that says, 'Comments welcome' or something similar.  Well, pardon me, but I don't care if you request comments or not (you can even post a line that says, 'Just shut up, 'cause I ain't gonna listen') - if I feel warranted in making them, you're going to get them.  This is a PUBLIC forum.  If you don't want comments on your work, then do as some builders (wbill for example) who post here have done - start up your own webpage and don't allow comments.  You can go to Bill's (excellent) website and look at all his builds and follow his logs, but you cannot comment.  Of course, since Bill posts his work here, he gets plenty of feedback.  However, I do tend to get a little frosted by people who post something, then either expect only verbal attaboys or no comments at all, and then get bent out of shape when we don't accomodate them...

bbrown; Seek out the reply on here regarding no feedback ,what a wunnerful world that would be! I always think of the midget on Monster Garage "That aint gonna work!!" Excellent point THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM.If you dont want comments or are unable to deall with them courteously  then dont post or reply to this or any other post.Josh you have been asked for a clarification ,pease reply.

krow113

Josh you have been asked for a clarification ,pease reply.

Give him time.  Josh said he would be back later.  I'm sure he will and I have no doubt he'll answer my question - he always has in the past.

Speaking of questions, one for you krow113: as I read through this, am I correct in understanding that what sparked this whole conversation was someone accusing you of being a rivet counter?

EDIT:

Krow,

I just read your bio.  I was surprised to see the comment in it that mentioned anyone posting anything on here other than an attaboy is labeled a rivet counter.  As my above question implies, I am getting to believe someone busted your stones for something you think was over the top, and that just sucks.  That being said, please don't get that impression from one bad interaction.  I'm not sure which forums you float around in, but I can say that in my experience, the level of feedback and give and take at this site is pretty high.  Of course, I have the benefit of having been around for a while so I 'know' a lot of the regulars.  But still, I think if you give it time, you'll see that the experience you had was the exception rather than the norm.  Like I mentioned in reference to one of my earlier posts, (and without knowing the particulars of your 'incident'), I'd guess someone got their knickers in a bunch after mis-interpreting the tone of something you said, and they went off the deep end about it.

Sorry to hear (or am I assuming?) that was your experience, but like I said, don't let it color your entire perception of the site - by and large there are good folks around here. 

Thought I'd post this definition of a rivet counter and see what happens..

Rivet Counter is a term taken from the model railroading hobby, where it is used negatively to describe a hobbyist who thinks authenticity is important, and who (canonically) counts rivets to see if the model is accurate to the extent that accuracy is more important than having fun or appreciating a model on its own aesthetic merits. Trains fans probably have more rivet counters than other types since there are so many prototypes out there.

I think the key point in the above is this:

"...accuracy is more important than having fun or appreciating a model on its own aesthetic merits."...

Certainly have to give a nod to the RR modlers in this arena, since they've had to deal with them far longer than any of us scale modelers have... The R/Cs in that hobby drove me right out of the club I was in for years and I tore down my layout and gave all the track, locos, & rolling stock to the kids next door, easily four thousand dollars-worth of stuff... 

Hans:Are the kids using it?

Never would I lump all of you into one basket ,the key to satisfaction in this hobby is to make your model for your self and if your gonna display it,here or out there, better be able to handle it. I created this commentary to seek out who really is kinda above that level of response, basically the name calling or labeling ,in response to an opinion . I feel a lot better now.

Great thread and I wish I had the time to read all the replys fully.

 I believe a model is just that, a fun hobby to achieve a pleasing finished product. A scale miniature is of the next level with accuracy and scale taken to a realistic level. A museum miniature or scale replica is usually scratch built in scales not available on production kits. Origionals if you will. All are built for viewing and to be appreciated for the time and skill involved.

Like any work of art each viewer will have different interpertations and opinions of the subject. One good example of this would be at a model contest, the judges and general public all have their favorates for varied reasons and interists. Inaccurate models or details will be noticed there and score accordingly. Accuracy and research can become a hobby alone and take more time than the build, so thats where some perfer to assemble, paint, decal for their earned hobby time vrs. 'rivet counting'

One of many things I like about this site is when im unsure of a certain detail or such I just post it as a question and someone has a picture or explanation to solve the issue. It saves me time that I would rather spend at the hobby bench, always thanking the reply for their time and effort. When I know something is wrong I post that as well, a short sentance telling that I am aware of the mistake yet chose to soldier on. Besides people like me learn more from mistakes than success and will rememberit  for the next build which is always a bit better than the last. Most here realize 'new' modelers and are encourageing without discourageing their efforts. They may be the next master builders teaching us new tricks in a few years, and everyone started somewhere building a kits with a mistake or two.

I enjoy scratch building details, assembly and painting. Accuracy isn't tops on my builds. If they turn out looking cooler than OOB and are unique because of my efforts than im happy. Some win at contests and others don't. I build to my standards of a pleaseing display that draws viewers closer, when that happens it is all woth the time and effort to me