'RIVIT COUNTING' -EPITOME OR SCOURGE?

Like bbrown says, I think Hans thinks of the term Rivet Counter (from his model RR days) in a negative light. He equates it with bad behavior. I see it as someone who is a true expert or extremely knowledgeable in their particular genre of modeling. Our basic definition differences prevent us from agreeing on whether they are the epitome or scourge.

Hans goes on to state that they (the RCs in his definition of the term) don't belong in a place like this and they do more harm than good. My thoughts, even using his definition of the term, is that anyone with internet access and an affection for scale modeling should be welcomed here. It's not my decision to make the imperial proclamation of who should be allowed to this site. Who am I, just another modeler who posts here. I have no greater powers than anyone else in this thread nor should anyone else be the one to decide who is welcomed or unwelcomed.

Those RC (again using Hans' definition) if they did appear and act as he's seen them do (I've seen those types as well), they would quickly be ostracized and eventually fade away. Either that or their bad behavior would push the Admins' limits and the staff would ban them. People who are jerks in real life tend to be jerks online as well. They can't help themselves. They are the ones that will get themselves banned, booted or just plain ignored.

Using my definition of a RC, I was friends with a man I met at an AMPS group in Massachusetts. This man mainly scratchbuilt kits, often based on the Czech 38t series. This man is one of the nicest human beings you will ever meet. He takes a photo of some obscure 38t variant (or other subject matter) and literally builds one from styrene and scavenged road wheels and tracks from a 38t kit. This man literally counts the bolts and rivets to replicate them on his model. He's helpful, supportive and gave demonstrations at the monthly get-togethers. He's not very web saavy and focuses on his hobby. Is he a rivet counter? In my definition, he literally counts rivets, creates them in the proper scale and creates beautiful works of art. Should we not welcome a modeler like this? Is he the bane of the modeling hobby?

I participate in another hobby where guys like Hans refer to that group as "elitist jerks", a more appropriate moniker. Hans and those guys are right, but to me they're just plain jerks.

Sorry guys, I use a laptop at home with wireless and just leave this and two other tabs open 24/7 so when I open up the computer I can just check what's going on. I never sign out and the computer never gets turned off so it always shows me as logged in.

bbrowniii, I'm saying, kind of... I don't think everyone should stop posting wip threads for fear of their build being torn down and ridiculed by others, I think quite the opposite actually. I think it is good for people to post, unless one thinks they know it all, there is someone out there who knows more and will help, (I hope), in a positive manner. What I meant by what I posted earlier is, if someone posts a wip thread and someone replies in a manner that doesn't sit well with the original poster, whether it be our `rivet counters' or someone else, it might be better to just not reply to that post at all. Because with that something ferocious could spark and away your thread goes into an internet battle that will only end with a moderator closing it and the original poster leaving the site for good.

I just want to say that if anyone reads anything I have stated in this entire thread and it is contradictory to something else I have posted here, it is not because I am a hypocrite, it is because I am learning. I find myself changing views on things without knowing it. (I would have to re-read through this thread because I could not give an example outright. I just feel like I have.)

From everything I have read, I can say for myself that a rivet counter designation is solely dependent on ones own ... mindset(?), for lack of a better word. Whether it be attitude, the way one reads something or a set standard of ways, it all provides the means in which we label. If someone replies to one of my threads and does so in a way that I find sincere, is read and typed out sincere (or as sincere as possible), and I have my open mindset on learning than there shouldn't be an issue.

Josh

Hey Josh

Thanks for the explanation - that really cleared things up for me.  I'd agree with you to a point.  The point being, if I post something, and someone else tries to stomp all over it just because they can, I'm going to let them know I don't appreciate their attitude.  I'm also the type of person who enjoys the occassional verbal sparring match, so I know that sometimes I get into things a little deeper than I should.  But your point is well taken that those are the ways that threads get hijacked and taken way off track.

Hans,

I think your definition is the one most of us (now) associate with a rivet counter.  At the same time, I see Rob's point, but to my way of thinking (and again, influenced by that definition), I would not personally consider that person a 'literal' rivet counter.  I'd probably just consider them one incredible modeler. 

It is the guys who lord their knowledge over you, the ones who look down on others who don't have the same knowledge or skill level, the ones (as Hans said) who seem to forget that these are tiny little pieces of plastic that we assemble for fun who, to me, are what we think of as 'rivet counters' today.

I can think of one who used to (may still for all I know) spend considerable time in the ships forum.....  one real piece of work, that one...

Hans, thanks for posting that definition, I didn't know that it was already an established term,,,,and it's origin makes sense

I wish the whole story would have been in the original post,,,the replies would have been a lot different, I'd wager, and now that the whole thing is out there,,,,,,I disagree with the OP's actions at that show

I didn't intend to get in anyone's face,,,,if I did,,,,I apologize for that

Rex

No problem. And I find myself agreeing with you. I do enjoy sparring matches myself, one of my most favorite things to do actually, lol. And yup, you understood what I was saying. Each person will react differently, it's the way we react that defines the outcome. (Don't take that wrong, I wasn't directing it towards you. Just saying in general.)

Josh

TarnShip

Hans, thanks for posting that definition, I didn't know that it was already an established term,,,,and it's origin makes sense

I wish the whole story would have been in the original post,,,the replies would have been a lot different, I'd wager, and now that the whole thing is out there,,,,,,I disagree with the OP's actions at that show

I didn't intend to get in anyone's face,,,,if I did,,,,I apologize for that

Rex

Hey Rex

I'm not sure who you are apologizing to, or what you are apologizing for.  To be honest, as I read through this, I sort of assumed your 'definition' of yourself as a 'rivet counter' was more consistent with how Rob was using the term, and not Hans. 

I didn't see you get in anyones face - I thought you were just explaining yourself.  No big deal there. 

Sorry boys I got a little modeling done while things were ongoing.I hope this discussion is helping us all.I think we may be on the brink of exhausting this topic...............

Anyway here is my work for today " Its my 1/9 Bobber HD Headlight.I filled the kit parts with a 1.5 volt clear light and a piece of styrene I heated and pressed into the bottom of an aerosol can .The chrome piece is vinyl we use in the sign industry ,cut out on my plotter.We see the parts and the final assy ready for primer with the cut out material.Had to put a little actual modeling into this and I will keep monitoring the post.I have read all the input and mostly wish to come back to it tomorrow and re-read the entire thread to get a real sense of whatsbeen said.

krow113

Touchy touchy .  Maybe its just me, but if a guy asks a simple question ,or makes any comment other than 'gladhanding' , about anothers post or work there is an instant labeling of 'rivit counting' . This seems to me to be a rather lame way to respond to a simple question or comment. I see some excellent work on here and there is evidence of people struggling with tools or products or procedures as well.  If a comment is made and not understood ,perhaps a little time to reflect prior to labeling someone , would be prudent .Or is this labeling a way of showing perhaps that the level of modeling commented on is below the 'rivit counter' level? Is rivit counting the epitome or the scourge of the modeling hobby ? I see people post excellent ,detailed work ,but mention one small thing about it and look out the dander is up way too fast.

I am almost at the point where posting any sort of comment other than back slapping is a waste of time on here. I expect this post to be interpreted ,as some of mine have been , incorrectly . One guy read a post three or four times before he decided to put a label on me, still misunderstanding my intent!  Maybe a fifth read would have helped. I have no time for comments that are useless ,so it may have been more proper to accept the comment in a good way rather than fire off a post that had zero to do with the model or my comments, other than one sentence they took umbrage to.

I took some time and reflection prior to writing this and will watch to see the response ,whether time will be taken to think about the entire post or single out one  sentence and respond to that.

I am able to tell what looks good to me, what doesnt is something I was hoping for help with on here.When I am asked for help I have responded properly . I do hope the time is taken to read this post and digest it ,I'm not trying to change any thing, I was just hoping honesty would be taken into consideration rather than as a reason to start labeling or gettin out the weaponry .

I have had some great responses and interaction with some of the best modelers on here and look forward to much more of the same.I will continue to post my wips as I do have a contest to enter this year and fback is something I factor in ,good or bad , nice or nasty  .Like I say it may just be me .I expect a lot of response to this from the wags(Yeah it is just  you) and the serious modelers who are thick skinned enough not to resort to 'labeling'.  Right now I am making a neon sign for one of my LHS and am going back to that.   Please feel free to comment or critique this post

In a way krow113 I think it is kind of like  Art. Paintings, Sculpting, Etc.

Someone who knows Art will look at a painting and critique it as to  what it is in relation to others in style and media.

Others, Who know nothing about Art will say" I know nothing about art but I know I like it." Or I don't.like it"

The person who made the art(with great passion and love) will react to any response.

The main thing is the art of the Person. The love and effort in his/her Art. The understanding that when displaying your art you will be judged and critiqued and for good or bad  it's out there.

I know some people who never put their stuff out there. Yet will tell you all about an airbrush or paint technology.

This is a hobby about Art. The art of craftsmanship and pleasure and enjoyment in making something to look at.

Beauty and Correctness is in the eye of the beholder.

Satisfaction is in the hands of the builder.

Thanks DR

I agree with krow113 & Dr. Faust. While there are terrific modelers on this site, entry level modelers and guys like Model Maniac who post photos of so-so models built professionally for himself, the one thing that will bring the collective ire of the community upon you is any sort of critique.

If you ain't gonna pump the sunshine, keep your comments to yourself.

I'll point out the easy/harmless errors, like incorrectly painted head light and tail lights (super easy fix normally), but I'll steer clear of any comments that bring the "rivet counter" (Hans' definition of the word) scorn upon me. I've got better things to do than to enter into heated discussion with defenders of a modeler who installed his .50 cal upside down. Yeah, ok, maybe the unit he depicted used the gun that way.

Hans - I have watched this over the past few days and though I understand your feelings, I have to say I am more in the Rob G camp.

For me a RC is not a bad term and I consider myself to some extent one of them. A great modeler can carry off a great build just OOB or with a ton of details. It is not in the “rivets” but in the “nuts and bolts” of basic modeling.

I will agree with Rob that when I see something really bad, I try not to comment, as negative comments will go nowhere. The idea of the forums is to try to help, teach and build skills, not degrade.

As to your thoughts on how the RCs who drove you from model Rail Roads….I would not call them RCs but Rectums. I have seen it here and at some shows but whenever you get a group of people together there will always be one. Some of the best modelers I have seen like Steve Zaloga is a RC big time but a great guy and always there to help (check out Missing Lynx). It does not mean because you like detail you are a RC….in the bad sense

As far as judging…again there is always some rectum in the group. You cannot stop it so I just ignore it. I show models to “show” not to win awards. There are some who live for the awards and some judges who live to cut everything up. It happens everywhere in life.

As far as the cost of modeling, I see a thread on this about every month. Yes….some kits are quite expensive, but let’s look at this in context. I much prefer the model with separate hand tools than the molded on blobs of the 70’s. This is just one example of how things have improved. I like using AM items but that’s my choice yet I am not afraid to scratch build other items. As for the cost…everything has gone up. I take out my old Lionel trains at Xmas and see the old price tags for $8.95 and realize today that is $150.

This hobby overall is cheaper than most. Model trains, RC, etc are all up there in cost. Let us not even talk about things like car restoration or sports like golf or fishing.

Lastly, the thought of driving kids out of the hobby due to cost is just bovine scatology. The kids today have exponentially, more things to divert their attention than we did. I look at the cost of my daughter’s video games, IPod, computer, videos, etc and thank God I only build models. If a kid can drop $50 on a video game, they have the cash to drop on a model. Today in our instant gratification society, modeling takes too long.

A hobby is supposed to be fun. Each of us enjoys at their level. Don’t group people as RC being bad. Those who are negative or don’t post but act as a know-it-all or are just flat out jealous, like Rob said are just jerks. In the old days we could give them a blanket party….today in our PC world and at my age, I try not to let them spoil my fun and generally just ignore them.

That’s my opinion……I could be wrong

Resident artillery rivet counter

Rounds Complete!!

Hey Redleg

I know you were directing your comments mostly at Hans, but I wanted to chime in.

Broadly speaking, I agree with your overview - and I agree (having only met you a couple of times) you probably are a rivet counter, in the sense of a person who notices and strives for precision.  However, where I would diverge from you and Rob is that, I would suspect, if you were to conduct a poll, you would find that most people's perception/definition of a rivet counter is more along the lines of Hans' definition.

And again, I think the key is that now, the term rivet counter is applied to people in a negative way because they are perceived as sucking the fun out of the hobby.  You, Rob, Steve Z, and many others, have an eye to precision, but because of your helpful nature, your willingness to assist, ect, I don't think most people would consider that rivet counting because of the nature of how the term is now perceived.

Of course, this is one of those discussions that could go round and round and round about trying to decide what the definition of 'is' is....

That is what I said back on page two:

I think the biggest difference between a "rivet counter" and an honest critic is that the rivet counter is trying to show how smart he is, and the honest critic is trying to be helpful.

There I'm using rivet counter in it's most negative connotation. Redleg, Rob, Gino, Berny and others are perhaps 'rivet counters' in reality, in that they strive for perfection, and really do know their stuff, having been there and done that. They also come into the 'honest critic' camp, as they don't display their expertise as if it is a mating ritual. All of them are forthright in their opinions, without being @sshats about it.

But still, Bill (huh huh - that rhymes...)

Can you tell me what the definition of 'is' is...?

Simple!

"Is" is a verb and is the 3rd person singular present tense indicator of "Be". It descends from the Old High German "Ist", which is from the Latin "Est" which in turn is from the Latin "Esse" which means "to be". The 1st and 2nd are "am" and "are", respectively speaking, with "are" also being used for 1st person plural. Past singular 1st and 2nd are "was" and "were", with "were" also being used as past plural.

That is what "Is", is! Isn't it?

We went from modeling to English class...

krow113

Hans:Are the kids using it?

Dunno, the probably got kids of their own now..

      Well, it seems that things have cleared up a bit... I certainly understand now why the term isn't viewed as negative by some others, but were I labeled a rivet counter because I point out some details that are wrong in someone's model, that would be somewhat confusing to me, since the builder had posted his work and asked, "Whattya think?"... I simply said what I thought, and, here's the key, I also told them how I would have fixed it and perhaps they'd take that to heart on their next build.. Something along the lines of Brownie's example, whereas someone has painted a ramming staff as aiming posts... 

     Pointing out those kind of errors and offering an explaination and a fix isn't rivet-counting, as far as I'm concerned...  Pointing them out and ridiculing the build(er) IS...  Telling someone who asks about kit's quality and accuracy which kits you would reccomemend isn't rivet counting... Telling someone who's posted an SOB Hawk P-47 that they should have bought the Tamiygawa one and that building the Hawk kit was a stupid waste of time & money  IS...

     I don't think of guys like Zaloga and the rest as rivet-counters anyway... At worst, I'd call 'em Detail Freaks...  I'm a Gizmologist... I don't do bolt-for-bolt, wire-for-wire detailing, I don't buy a bunch of AM parts for 'em,  I use whatever's around the house that "looks miniature" to make what I think is fair representation, using references, of some internal mechinism or area...  I don't build cockpits that can't be told apart from the real ones, but I build them to look "busy", and even though they may be off a bit, they're pretty close overall, although I don't conjure up items from thin air, either (unless I'm building Sci-Fi)...  I'm pretty sure that, unless you were actually a rated pilot in one of them, or had the Pilot's Operating Handbook with you while you were looking at it, you wouldn't really know what was "wrong" with it...   Guys like Rob that have forgotten more than than I'll ever know about M-1s (I've never beem closer than a motor-park fence to 'em and I'm that way about M101s, M102s, and M109s),  have looked at a number of works and will take the time to tell someone how to fix the mistakes (if the builder's interested) ...  But they don't run down the builder at all...  The Rivet Counter DOES...  

     In my definition (and the one that I've always used since I started being a "serious" modeler), RC is definately a negative connotation, and I think that "Rectum" although accurate, is actually far too polite a term...  They're a bunch of self-important, narcissistic, know-it-alls that have failed i other aspects of life and need to validate their own miserable existance through the belittling of others... The only other form of life that burns m'azz as much or more is the "Military Enthusiast" who knows everything about everything ever painted green... (There's actually many others, but I'll confine it to this area)

     So, in a nutshell, I think  Rivet Counter=Bad,  Detail Freak,=Good...

     BTW, If you think you're into details a LOT, and wonder if you're a rivet-counter, then you probably aren't...   Rivet-counters never wonder about anything... They already KNOW everything there is, 'cuz ... They bought a book about it...

 Well well what a bunch of great guys to go as far as this with a post I thought would be pushed aside for lack of real substance.I think the many diverse ,yet applicable , definitions apply here as stated and confirmed.There are no hard and fast rules just the desire to help and have fun.Thank you Dr.Faust for your eloquent response .I am sure we will all agree the term  rc has numerous meanings ,good-bad ,and is reliant upon how a person presents themselves and thier critique. I cant see or imagine a bad personality ever going over good ,no matter how hard a person tries.At my age I was a little perturbed to be mildly upset at the labeling of my self however I am ok with it now reading these posts and replies.I may be a rivit-counter but my motivation in this will never be self-satisfaction or liking the sound of my own voice but only to improve my models and the models of those who really seek the input of others.I have learned a lot here and thank you all for,at the very least, showing me the real thoughts of the majority on here.And isnt it true if one enmbraces the label applied by others ,then said label loses its negative connotation. In the end i think the stronger more secure modeler will take all that comes with the realization ,albeit selfish , its really a personal hobby ,done for personal satisfaction. I especially saw a clearing of the air after the definition /history supplied by Hans,thank you for that.

Well said Hans.  I couldn't agree more...

Hans - I accept you explanation and my movement to "detail freak" (sounds better toooo)

As far a rectums.....you should know me by now....I'm just nice on the public forum....Lets try this another way

    PLUS   

I would love to expound with a plethora of colorful metaphors!!

Thanks.......great discussion

Rounds Complete!!

I'm new to this forum and just ran across this thread.  The definition of  "rivet counter" seems to be dependent on what kind of modeller you are.  When I was young in the hobby of model railroading I felt that historical accuracy was paramount because I was trying to recreate a specific time and place and began to amass a huge amount of knowledge on very small details.  Anyone who didn't model things to exacting detailed standards was an idiot.  (Yes Hans, I was one of THOSE rivet counters)  Later on I graduated to 12 inches to the foot scale at a railroad musem and realized that equipment is always evolving, be it trains, armor, cars, planes etc. and that capturing the "feel" of a certain era is more important than all of the minute details involved to get there.

Now that I am back into modelling and into a subject about which I don't  know nearly enough (armor) I find that capturing the feel of the subject is more important than all the little details involved.  Don't get me wrong, I still find the details intriging and find it very enjoyable to add them.  But I'm not going to blow somebody out of the water if they don't like to do it.  The main thing is to have fun regardless of what anyone says and to be constuctive in any critiques and not denigrating.  Hey, If  I can change from a rectum to someone who's just interested in how tiny parts can get, maybe there's hope for the rest of the rivet counters!

sies&s Thanks for putting the post back up and your reply .This was/is still relevant simply because of the nature of the original post and the excellent replies. I hope the post is read by the labelling types and there is a realization of the damage done by ' ridin' to the rescue' of someone who may have had thier work critisized.