'RIVIT COUNTING' -EPITOME OR SCOURGE?

Bbrown Thanks  for bringing us back to the essence of the discussion ,it takes replies like yours to get a real good idea of the discussion and its meaning. I believe on these forums that anyones expertise is a nesseccary and usefull thing. I also think that labeling someone with any kind of name is not proper and who is qualified to do that? If a critique is offered , and the way it is percieved is incorrect ,decorum and courtesy are the watchword , not an immediate ammo distribution and concentrated attack .As I stated I have recieved emails off here regarding this from people driven off by these attacks.Critisizm offered is not an attack ,its just an opinion.Granted there are ignorant rc's but what about those who just wanna contribute and are pounced on by the hyper-sensitive? If any thing this discussion is valuable in that the replies contain the repliers ,to me , valuable expertise. I know I will be coming back to this post time and time again to see who to ask about real-life info on a model I am building/considering. Offering anything leaves a person open for attack -I ask which of the two is correct? We are not tryna define an rc that is a personal  term used by others to describe someone they may not like because of offered critique. My intent was to let the name callers and labelers be aware that the quick draw is not always the best reaction.Thanks again for your reply.And thanks for correcting my spelling -does that make you a rc? See how perception is every thing regarding this matter.!!

I've read through this entire thread, and have to admit to being a little confused about what the conversation is about.  Are we just trying to define what a Rivet Counter is?  If that is the question, I doubt you'll ever find consensus because, as a lot of the posts have already mentioned, that is subjective.

I look at the title of the thread and see 'Rivit (-et) Counting - Epitome or scourge?' and immediately think 'epitome' of what?  Of all that is wrong with the hobby?  Of the passion and detail and precision that some modelers are able to achieve in their builds?

I mean, what is rivet counting, anyways?  Is it giving unsolicited advice on a build or a kit?  Or is it giving overly nitpicky comments about a build or a kit?  OR is it the manner and spirit with which comments are offered?

Case in point - I have a background in mortars.  I was a gun-bunnie, I was a team and section leader, an FDC chief, a Fire Support Coordinator and a Platoon Commander.  Like Rob, who has forgottten more about the Abrams than most people will ever know, I suspect the same could be said of me regarding indirect fire and fire support coordination.  The result of all that un-neccessary personal information is that I have a couple of pet-peeves.  For one, I tend to notice when people build a kit of a direct fire weapon (a Pak-40, for example) with the cleaning rods painted in the red and white pattern of firing stakes.  Typically I'll offer a, 'Hey, I like your Pak-40....  by the way, one thing you might want to keep in mind for you next build....'

Is that me being a rivet counter?  I don't intend it that way.  I offer my observations sincerely and with the hope they will be taken that way and (maybe) used to improve a future build.  Am I going to go up one side and down the other of someone for making that mistake?  Absolutely not.  Still, despite how I intend my comments, I cannot control how they are perceived.  If I touch a nerve on the builder of said Pak-40, and he gets his pantaloons in a bunch and starts labeling me as a rivet counter, who is right??

I don't know, but this is a pretty interesting conversation...

Tship- other than ranting about politics or showing any anger we can do what we want,I have been linked to other sites numerous times on here .Please go ahead and send them as I feel it would add to our discussion . As for the plane I felt that the builder was takin no chances and built to formula , a good strategy and obviously a winning one.Although its not all about that. My Earle fig took third but was the talk of the show because of my base and obvious research .See him on Resin Illuminati a good site for discerning modelers. My fig was built to my liking and I learned that 'formula modeling' wins the day.UhOh -did I just create another label ,dammit Jim Im a modeler not a doctor!

geez, that is just plain cool

I'd bet there isn't a guy on any of these sites that wouldn't like to build OOB well enough to take home Best of Show with one, against all the "open comp" models

I can't even enter OOB,,,,,I build jets and like weapons on my planes, pretty sure a Phantom with empty pylons wouldn't stand a chance, lol

I don't think we're supposed to link to other message boards here, or I would

Tarn ship Thanks for your continued input .I would clarify one item for you ,the model I mentioned that won our Best in Show was built oob with no additional am kits .It was not in the oob categorty it was in the large scale aircraft category.Please send or reply with the other sites you mention as I would like to check them out .

Rob and Hans : Good interaction and relpies from both of you .Agent G same to you and thanks for bringing us back around to the original meaning of the post. A dfinition of these terms and meanings is a good thing ,however I do ask that someone defending thier use of the term reply here. I think a 'rivit -counter' may be someone ,as Rob states , who percieves himself to be qualified and may go overboard in thier enthusiasim .This may lead others to want to paste the label on him.I think of myself as a 'contest modeler' ,this has happened because of working for myself ,I cant afford to take any chances with materials and procedures , and developed ways to get the job done. I let this attitude ,or approach , my due diligence , wash over onto my model building(good pun there!) This was of no voluntary choice by me ,just good intentions. Last night ,thinking about all this and what it means ,I did relax on adding parts to a 1/9 scale Linkert carb for my bobber wip. I anly added 16 parts to it...............oh god help me I'm a rivit counter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Excellent replies and input from you guysplease keep it coming.

hey, G,,,,,,I think you have identified one of the main problems with these discussions

we need some kind of list of terms, so that being called an RC is not an automatic insult,,,,,,it's sort of funny to me that a discussion board that supports a mag named "Fine",,,,,is not "supposed" to be used to discuss details and factual data of details

the real truth is that "some RC helping Dragon get the tiny details right",,,,,,,didn't drive up the costs to the guy that only likes to build old Monogram molds,,,,,or the detail level expected of the Monogram builder

if anyone that types out "don't use ablative coating and 2 yellow stripes on bombs on a Navy jet before the Carrier fires" is an RC,,,,,,then, yup, I'm one of those, simply because I wasn't in until 1975,,,,,,,even though my intent is to help a guy to not make a mistake on his jet (and it's a "free fix",,,,costs the same to paint it semigloss with one stripe as it does to paint it flat and bumpy with 2 stripes),,,,,,,,same with "don't build a VF-32 F-4J,,,,,,they never had them"

to me, the difference is whether a person will tell you where you can find the info or not,,,,,,If I just say "in 1979, Phantoms were Gloss, not Flat on the upper surfaces",,,,,that's different than if I add "and you can see the spec in Monogram Color Guide Vol 4",,,,one approach is "elitist", giving only a small kernel of knowledge,,,,the other lets the person know where to look for himself (giving a fish or teaching to fish)

I don't know,,,,,,this is seeming pointless lately,,,,,,,there were 4 threads on different sites this week about how hated "we" are,,,,one got deleted by that site's owner,,,,it got too nasty,,,,,,,but,,,,,,,how nasty would y'all call me if during that same time all the threads were answered "they were gray",,,or "use putty", "make some yourself",,,,,and "that was released in a kit once",,,,,,without the details?

That's more of a pseudo-expert joy sucker than a rivet counter. Most rivet counters post in progress works, their observations on the kit error and how they are correcting it. You normally see their WIP consisting of grabbing parts from several kits (sprockets better in kit A, turret from kit B, details from kit C), scratch built corrective pieces they've poured resin copies of, bit and pieces from several PE sets and half of their PE pieces are scraped together from the fret scraps.

I run across several self-proclaimed experts. Especially after the start of OIF, anyone who took photos of a local National Guard Abrams, owned the Squadron in action title and thumbed through the Hunnicutt book at the public library thought they were an Abrams expert. One even proclaimed the GAS opening was the spent brass ejection port for the coax. I've forgotten more about the Abrams than they'll ever know and I don't consider myself an expert at all. Just a little more familiar with the vehicle than the average model builder.

Real rivet counters are amassing research information for the manufacturers informing them that they just can't toss in bits from kit A and B to create version C.

The pseudo-experts are tsk tsking you because you built the latest Dragon panzer OOB or you used the Eduard PE instead of the Aber PE or heaven forbid, did not use the Fruil metal tracks. In the armor world, they tend to hang out in the panzer section.

We used to call them the Joy Sucking Modeling Nazis in the old USENET rec.model.scale and I refer you back to my example, most don't know what they are really talking about. They just parrot what they read or hear and are often times wrong and rarely sociable.

I couldn't care less what rivet counters did for a manufacturer to help them release a new kit, Rob..   I also said I wasn't wasn't gonna derail the tread by ranting about kit prices...

What my beef with 'em is is in modeling forums and on the contest circuit...  No matter what a guy does to his model, the RC will find something wrong with the way you built it or what the manufacturer got wrong and that you didn't go out and buy the freakin' blueprints and correct the fact that the fuselage is too long by a scale two inches and the rudder has one too many ribs in it, or the track pad on the left track-link number 39 is wrong, and delite in a long, drawn-out post or disertation about it, with photos and links to 12 different websites showing dimensions and specs proving his point...  

He also never tells you how HE corrected it,  because he probably never built it...  Hell, there was a guy in here about a year ago that ran down everyone's build because they didn't use 5 pounds of brass after-market parts on the kit they built and would insult the modelers personally too...  I wanted to choke the living sh*t outta that guy, believe me...  He was of absolutely no help at all, and was a freakin' waste of oxygen, IMNSHO...  A more perfect example of a rivet counter never existed....

not to be argumentative, but some of the things thrown at the Rivet Counter's feet did not occur *because* of RC's,,,,,they were happening before the internet came along

model costs were already going up before Win 95 and the general use of forums to share information on these sites,,,,due to inflation and new molding technology

"Rex's rules" of building have never been the same as judging criteria at a show, for sure,,,,,,,IPMS rules in theory should let you win with a Purple and Pink camo'd USS New Jersey,,,or a Gloss Sea Blue Sherman,,,,,and in OOB you are NOT allowed to add brake lines to a plane, or other extra details like that,,,,only seatbelts

if we need RC's or not is an easy question to answer,,,,,do you want ME to answer if someone asks what the travel cradle for the barrel of an M-109 should look like,,,,,or Hans? (trust me, you want Hans, not Rex, lol), not to be elitist,,,,,,but, just to pick two names,,,,,,I'd rather have Bernie answer any USAF Phantom question I might come up with, than Hans, only because if I have to ask something, that means the question is coming from a guy looking for nuances with a pretty good education of the Navair Phantoms, not general knowledge (just an example, Hans, please don't be offended by this)

for the $10 kits from 50 year old molds,,,,rivet counting your own build only makes sense if you are trying to build a jem for yourself,,,,,,if you just want a model on your shelf,,,,,a newer mold might be cheaper to build from, when you total all the parts and hours it might take to bring that oldie up to new mold standards,,,,,,,if you don't rivet count those kits,,,they can make some pretty impressive models, too,,,that's all on the builder,,,,,,,but, if you are going to start with the Revell 1/72 P-51D from the sixties, and want it "done to the nines",,,,,you're going to be chatting with a few RC's in your quest

oh, and just a little note, here,,,,it's popular to say "okay, tear the kit apart, but only if you have a fix already to post with your critique",,,,sounds fair,,,,,but, what if *I'm* posting to point out the flaw in hopes that someone might have an idea of how to fix it?,,,,even RC's should be able to publicly ask other modelers for suggestions, you know?

the "good RC's" share their info with you for the cost of a thank you,,,,,,,the bad ones cut down your builds online or in person, and maybe are the guys that talk and don't have a completed model on any shelf in their house

haha, enough of my rambling thoughts

Rex

edit, left out a line

there are 4 questions commonly/constantly asked on forums,,,,,anyone that gives a correct answer to those could be considered an RC by anyone that didn't know the answer (even if that "non RC" gave an answer, but was incorrect)

krow113

Thank s for adding some more input .As for the level of skill/satisfaction question it is a personal thing and contest modeling is not far off that.I was astounded (almost) to see the best in show at our last contest(IPMS) was straight oob!!  Superb modeling skills ,but when I commented that (P-47) there were no brake lines or antenna wire,thinking these would be by rote ,  I was told 'better to leave it out rather than get it wrong"!!!! I learned that day that modeling skills, over accuracy , win contests .This did not deter me in my builds as I look around at what is 'acceptable' ,disregard this ,and try for a higher level but as said in my first post on this ,that may just be me!

It is the skill of the builder doing the basics right that wins contests, not the bells and whistles of the kits. I've won a couple of trophies with ancient Airfix kits; one was a 1/32 scale VW Beetle and the other a 1/76 scale LCM III (before the latest kits from Dragon and Italeri).

Thank s for adding some more input .As for the level of skill/satisfaction question it is a personal thing and contest modeling is not far off that.I was astounded (almost) to see the best in show at our last contest(IPMS) was straight oob!!  Superb modeling skills ,but when I commented that (P-47) there were no brake lines or antenna wire,thinking these would be by rote ,  I was told 'better to leave it out rather than get it wrong"!!!! I learned that day that modeling skills, over accuracy , win contests .This did not deter me in my builds as I look around at what is 'acceptable' ,disregard this ,and try for a higher level but as said in my first post on this ,that may just be me!

'Hans von Hammer',

"Cliff Clavins", I love it. 

As far as the "model for themselves" crowd asking for critiques, I think that would probably be limited to the quality of the workmanship rather than any sense of accuracy. Also, those guys (who I would count myself among) aren't looking for any kinds of prizes.

There's nothing wrong with the commenter who offers up friendly advice. That's why someone like me puts up a project. For example, your advice about Luftwaffe ground crew uniforms (Black instead of the Blue I had used) was appreciated, as well as the cordial style in which you offered it.

You have a valid point with the "everybody's a winner" attitude that has swept over America. Competitions are just that: Competitions. What's the point of participating if the best don't stand out? Racing has this same attitude. Look at the old Formula 1 points system. They only paid back six places and there was a premium placed on winning. Now, every sanctioning body pays points back through the whole field and there is no incentive to keep moving forward. 

I also find myself in agreement with 'Rob Gronovius' with the superior "straight from the box" details in the current era kits. I know many people lament the cost that is associated with these improvements but the new molds cost and the manufacturer has to make a profit.

Nice discussion here. It has been enjoyable to read.

Regards, PWB.

Keep it going men .Some good points coming up and hearing all the different ideas and opinions is good .Please keep in mind ,I just woke up and thought almost immediatly (after feeding the feline masters) about the guy s driven off here by the labeling or being mistaken in thier critique or posting.They would need a thicker skin. But I would consider this 'harm' done. An attack on here is not really warranted ,and rushing to someones defence , well , howd you get that job? Another post shows the average age on here to be 39 or there abouts all grown men ,albeit playing with models, but still GROWN MEN. Thank you all for the participation ,perhaps the quick to label will read this  and take some measure of heed ,I think it may have had at least one guy return to the forums here and thats good..................

Hans von Hammer

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

Oh yeah.. Sure.. We oughtta thank 'em for kits that cost 70-80-140.00 dollars?  You gotta be kiddin' me, herr Major..  

Although that subject is an entirely different rant, and I won't derail the thread by going on about it,  I don't think rivet-counters are owed anything, as they do, IMHO, more harm than good in places like this one... If they confined thier talking points to between them selves and the manufacturers, then fine... But they don't..

 

Haven't been a major in a half a decade, but yes, they've given modelers the option to buy the $100 kit. They did not make the old kits go away. As a matter of fact, everytime the latest uber $100 kit comes out on a long-neglected subject, all the ancient dinosaurs kits hit eBay at rock bottom prices.

For instance, the M50 Ontos was available as either the 50 year old Renwal kit (about $75) or the Revell 1983 rebox that could fetch around $50-75 as well. The only other option was a couple of resin kits that were both over $100.

A couple of modelers who were fans of the vehicle worked with various museums and restoration enthusiasts and accumulated countless measurements, restoration photos and walk arounds of the finished vehicles.

Academy jumped on the bandwagon and produced a brand new tooled kit (have one sitting in front of me now) that I paid $25 delivered off of eBay.

Now given the choice between the formerly $50-75 50 yr old kit (have one and a half of those as well) and the $25 brand new kit, I know which one I prefer.

And if building older kits is your cup of tea, you can probably find the old Renwal or Revell kits more readily today and at a much more reasonable price than you could before all thanks to the dreaded rivet counters that helped produce the new kit.

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

Oh yeah.. Sure.. We oughtta thank 'em for kits that cost 70-80-140.00 dollars?  You gotta be kiddin' me, herr Major..  

Although that subject is an entirely different rant, and I won't derail the thread by going on about it,  I don't think rivet-counters are owed anything, as they do, IMHO, more harm than good in places like this one... If they confined thier talking points to between them selves and the manufacturers, then fine... But they don't..

But here's the shirt front & back... Maybe they can give 'em out at shows..

We as modelers owe the rivet counters a debt of thanks. Although personally, they tend to be anal to the Nth degree, it is their devotion to the hobby, research on their "pet" vehicle, etc. that in turn provides model manufacturers with the necessary information to produce more accurate models for the rest of us to build.

I agree that online, many rivet counters seem overly "holier than thou". Tsk, tsk, you built the ancient Monogram kit and not the newer Trumpeter one in their eyes.

To each their own, if you enjoy constructing a box shaker, good for you. If you enjoy pouring hours into teaching an old dog to look like a new kit, good for you too.

If that rivet counter points out an error on your old dog, take it in stride. You did your best and missed a spot, nobody's perfect. Or maybe that issue just didn't matter to you. What's the worst that has happened, he hurt your whittle feewings?

Many of the points that Hans makes I have to agree with.....I will stick to bullets for my rant,

You have to be THICK skinned when you post.

I can tend to be a detal freak....but like Hans I judge contests and it is not the details that makes the winner, it isthe well built well executed and well finished model that wins.

Here to some extent I disagree with Hans....I build what make me happy....the level of detial from build to build may vary, based on how I feel

I check my ego at the door so I invite comments and listen to the all...good or bad....and ignore the rectums....you can spot them a mile away

I go to shows and enter models but I go as a social event.....if I win great if not I had a great day with a bunch of modelers.

I think of the fact that in the army "there is no explosive expert, the last thing you need to learn will kill you"........No one is perfect. We all learn from each other and always continue to learn.

Lastly, if you want to get detail information....do research....go to other sites like Missing Lynx where you can ask historians like Steve Zaloga question.....but most of all remember this is a HOBBY....it is supposed to be fun.

Rounds Complete!!

PaintsWithBrush

Most people include a "critiques/suggestions are welcomed/sought" when they post their works. This can be an open door for the "rivet counter" to come storming in.

There are people on this site who have openly stated that they do not give "atta boy" or "back slapper" responses to posted works. If they are not allowed to "critique", they will stay silent.

 

If your goal is to be a force to be reckoned with on the contest circuit or to gain employment in a museum, the "rivet counter" could provide a valuable service in pushing you to the most historically accurate representation possible.

Contest judges are few & far between that know enough about historical accuracy to be able to judge much in that arena.  As a judge, I have my own areas of expertise (WW2 German uniforms and US Army uniforms & equipment from 1940 through 2005 and WW2 USAAF and Early USAF camouflage & markings), but it doesn't mean much if I'm judging automotive, ships, or sci-fi... 

Judges (should) mainly concern themselves with the overall build and painting, looking for basic stuff like seams, sand-scratches, mis-aligned/missing parts, glue marks, paint flaws, etc, and don't know (or should ignore) that this P-51B has markings for a unit that only flew P-47s, or this Me-109E has the wrong tread pattern for 1940, or that the Panzer IV's NCO commander on that dio over there has infantry waffenfarbe on his shoulder marks and the infantryman walking alonside has an MP-40 in his hand but is wearing K-98 ammo pouches on his belt.  (Stuff like that drives me nuts, but if it ain't on the judging criteria sheet, it doesn't mean anything..  On the other hand, just because it's not judgeable doesn't mean you, as a builder, have a license to do that kinda stuff either..) A good modeler will always strive to be better with historical accuracy on historical subjects, IMHO...  That said, you're absolutely right about rivet-counters "storming in", PWB... They move about in groups at contests, two or three of them, and find something to b*tch about with every display...  Plus, there's always the modeling-version of "Cliff Claven" (The Mailman know-it-all from the TV series "Cheers" for those of you too young to know much about 80's sit-coms) in a group of non-modelers who are there just to look around... That guy's the worst kind of Rivet-Counter.. He's stupid on top of being an A**hole...  But he's fun to watch...

If, on the other hand, your goal is to fill your shelf with builds that make YOU happy and your idea of happy isn't wedded to pure historical accuracy, then "rivet counters" are a bunch of blowhards who need not inject themselves into the conversation.

The "Do whatever you want to do if it makes you happy" mentality should be discouraged among modelers who ask for comments/critique, IMHO...   I see this kind of response all the time, usually after five or six posts in reply to the request for comments...  I see it as fall-out from the so-called "Modern" theme of "everyone's a winner, there are no losers" philosophy that's all too prevailent in our 'enlightened" society... Anyone over 40 knows that that is pure 100%, Grade-A Felgercarb in the real world and results in the classic "Failure to Launch" more often than not, and in the modeling world, it's an invitation to "failure to progress" (if becoming a better modeler is your goal, that is)...  That said, obviously "Whimsical" builds should be treated as such, but the rivet-counter will take pure delight in ignoring a "fun build" and will mercilessly rip it apart even though the builder (and everyone else) knows what's "wrong" with it anyway...  So you're bang-on with your remark about "inviting rivet-counters, PWB..

One more thing... The Rivet-Counter has a tendency to disappear from a thread if he's proven wrong about his beef, or worse, he'll continue to prattle on about things and continue being pecksniffian about the build... 

BTW... I HAVE been know to get bogged-down in the details at times, so If any of y'all catch me being a rivet counter, PLEASE feel free to call me on it... I'm many things, but arrogant or hypocrticial, I'm not, or least I try not to be...  In the same vein though, forget about asking me to quit being grumpy... Ain't gonna happen...

Looking back on the replies here I see one from an art major who made good point about the fact that no critique and gladhanding only would be quite useless to someone seeking all input ,could even lead a guy astray. I was just laughing my bag off on the average age post ,funny as hell, i think I saw that guy on the freeway............................

i meant to add also, i've only got ten fingers, the feets are actually hooves, so after ten i tend to sand the rivits off...

ugoat Thank s for the input I feel like some are lookin and formulating replies .I think you are dead on abouthe internet and survival skills ,never hurts to have a personal firewall up..........

good discussion you have going here.  as has been pointed out, it's mostly in the delivery, as there is a fine and possibly blurred line between a history enthusiast who's turned that eye to detail towards modeling, and an online bully/prick, despite his knowledge/skill.

i'm here to learn how to model better, and i found as an added bonus, a bunch of history nuts, and some real gems full of knowledge.  i've learned as much about modeling techniques as i have the interesting history behind the kits we build.

i also learned, long ago on the world wide web, that one must have very thick skin, and let things roll off your back.  no sense getting riled up over what amounts to text and some digital photos.

Thanks for the reply This is keepin me busy! I think one thing I will mention a few times is that  the rush to label has driven off a number of perhaps good people ,thier loss as well as ours. I am new on here as well ,a few things disturb me _ the lack of info on some profiles and the number of 'hows your dog today' posts ,easy enough to post this kinda stuff all day ,but what does it have to do with modeling? Attack is not always the best defence and one should be careful of the names or labels being used. A modeler at my club meeting told me he quit a car model club because of critique.I showed commiseration but was thinking "suck it up cupcake'  ! Namecalling ,labelers feel free to chime in ,you sure dont wait when its time to beak off about percieved critizism , I want a balanced discussion .Oh did I just label someone??? oops

This is an interesting discussion. I'm fairly new here still, a rookie compared to many of you and I've only posted a meager handful of models. I expect, and desire, a large amount of criticism for my work. I majored in Art (and history) in college so I"m used to criticism (and modeling gives me the chance to meld history and art together - of course, that's a discussion for another time). I feel that the lack of constructive criticism would make this forum useless, at least for me.

I'm no rivet counter, I don't know enough about any particular modeling subject to offer such conjecture. But my feeling about this whole thing is that the blame for so-called rivet counting can be placed, in some cases, on both parties. It all depends on how you perceive your own work and how you think the other person perceives your work.

Though I'm fairly new, I've lingered around long enough to know who is genuine and who would rather 'hear themselves talk'. I think people have to decide for themselves what advice they will take and what they won't. It's your model, do what you want with it, but be prepared for fundamentalist activity if you post pics here. If guys want to help, listen. If guys want to tear you down, just wipe that dirt off your shoulder. Thats the nature of being creative!

Good reply Thank you ,I have yet to hear anyone defend thier 'rivitcounting ' comments i guess they wait for an opportunity to pounce rather thn involve themselves in a decent discussion of the subject. I have recieved emails recently regarding this ,most of them urging me to dump this forum and move on to others.I requested these people to post a reply on here, they were driven off here by the 'rivitcounter' cries.I too post my work seeking comments of all types ,being secure in myself and my work.

I alsway try to post that comments are welcome, and I mean it.  I really want to

know what others think.  It’s hard for me to work hard on something for weeks and weeks and objectively be able to evaluate it.  Often I will post that I am not happy with something, or thinking about one approach or another, to get input.  Anyone who comes blowing in and screaming that I have done something “wrong<” as someone else already pointed out here, is just trying to show how smart they are, and they are ignored, or would be if that ever happens, because it hasn’t.

As to others’ posts, I try to use the same logic:  if it’s someone who is clearly super excited about having finished something, it’s not really up to me to rain on that.  I might offer advice for future builds, but this needs to be tempered with the responsibility that I don’t want to drive someone off the site or away from the hobby, I’d much rather invite new people in!

If it’s someone I personally know, I’ll offer comments, but anything like criticism, I’ll just call them and we hash it out over the phone rather than in public.     

Rex Thank s I think you nailed an important difference there - offered advice is one thing ,a bold statement of incorrectness is quite another ,I hope the quick to label types are watching and listening , and perhaps thinking of a reply ,we have not heard any one defend thier cries of 'rivit-counter' and I for one am obviously watching ..................................

part of the problem with the RC label is that there are actually two kinds,,,,,,I'm one of them, but, strive very hard to make sure I'm not seen as the other kind

you'll never see me tell another modeler that he "got it wrong" on a built up model

I've pretty much stopped with the "F-4 153009 on June 16th had a XXXX on the inner wing pylon" type of thing, too

But, here's what I can do , and will do for any modeler that posts,,,,,since my collection is about a specific subject matter,,,,if a modeler asks, for example "what 1/72 kit has a XXXX in it?",,,,,I'll open the box, and tell him what box that item is in, and whether it's OOP or not,,,,,,that lets him know what to buy to get a Phantom strike camera, and gives him a clue as to where to look to try and buy the kit

decals "wrong",,,,,,yup, many popular kits may have repeated that error for decades, but, If I know of one kit or sheet that "got it right",,,,,,I post an answer,,,,,,,if you don't care about that level,,,,,that's fine by me, too

I have enough models to "have control" over,,,,,,,the last thing I need is to try and control your's, by internet remote control

if someone doesn't want to know what Phantom kits have "good" tanks or "bad" tanks in them,,,,,he won't ask,,,,,,if someone does want to know,,,and posts the question,,,,just let us answer him,,,,,input from the "drop tanks is drop tanks" people won't help the original poster one bit

Whenever the cries of "you're a Rivet Counter" seem to overtake my willingness to help,,,,,I just shut up for awhile,,,,,they're not my models, anyway

Rex

TL Thank s for your input I guess I should define Hillbilly as a remark not intended to pigeonhole or denigrate anyone ,you seem happy and content to build to your satisfaction and would respond graciously and maturely to offered advice or percieved critique. The fun does drain out at the bench when things dont go right ,but being labeled or pounced on isnt fun for the best modelers who offer thier expertise or advice on here- big difference there.