'RIVIT COUNTING' -EPITOME OR SCOURGE?

"Hillbilly" would a Registered Redneck do?

I'm retired,everything is paid off and I get a allowance every month to spend on what ever my heart desires. If I want to buy a set of Friulmodel tracks or a full set of PE for a just released model I saved for to get, I save up until I can get them. If I blow the whole months allowance before the end of the month I just have to do without until I get my next allowance. Why would anyone care how much I spend? I sure don't care how much or how little any of you folks do so don't imply that i'm ignorant for spending what I do on kits or AM.

If I have the courage to post pictures of my efforts on a forum and ask for comments, I know what I might be in for but please don't ignore me because i've never made a post on your threads. The back slaps are great because it tells me i'm on the right path but if you tell me I need to do this or that or make a correction, i'll weigh it out and do just that on the present build or make the suggested change on the next one.

Am I a Modeler or a Assembler? I never gave it much thought, I just put all the parts and pieces together that I like or even scratch build and hope for the best.

I'm fairly new to the hobby and these are the things that get under my skin when I read the site forums.

It's a hobby and it shouldn't be stressful to enjoy and have fun, oops one exception "The Tweezer Fling"

Great discussion folks, thanks

Tony Lee

Thanks  aaron good reply- I would post up here because I feel the need for input .Input ranges on here from stupid to incredible I would encourage you to keep posting and never mind the attacks- this means you got to them,not the best thing but it provokes a real response other than 'awesome' .A word that now has diminished meaning. I would welcome the input from a concerned and knowledgeable person , I myself offer up my experience in the motorcycle world .A note on that -in that world we have what is known as 'purists' (this 'label' was overheard by me in a convo and is not one I personally use) who offerup unsolicited advice or knowledge ,sometimes abrasivly but usually out of concern for the bike itself. This is different in the fact that m/c are dangerous and the offering may save a life.Once a person has built something that is used by others a concern is developed for thier safety and the certification of the bike .I personally call this 'due diligence'

Some people are sitting at thier computors waiting to pounce on a well- meaning reply or post .they have nothing better to do and gain a phony sense of well being after an attack on what may well be an innocent offering of advice. Boy this is gettin good ,and I think we will be getting some of the best response's to come.

Bgrigg Thanks for posting Its not a matter of right/wrong ,for me its mostly about labeling someone ,especially when my post is not understood as in the case of the guy you mention who tried to label me as an 'extreme rivit counter' Opinion is expressed one way ,critique another, labeling and namecalling is an immature and useless way to reply to either . Of course the label is only an opinion as well, but may show an inability to respond in a gracious or courteous manner .The best thing about this post is the great replies and the fact that the quick to label types are not responding. I have never been ignorantly critical of any ones work on here ,and only after profuse kudos would offer an opinion or advice,this is not a scenario that requires me to be 'labeled' or 'painted with the wrong color'.I think the quick to label types may wanna consider this in the future.I am really enjoying the upper level of replies on this post.

A lot of these comments are exactly why I rarely comment anymore unless I am pretty comfortable with the poster. Too many seem to see any comment other than "awesome" as negative.

One of my areas of "expertise" is emergency vehicles, and part of that has been tracking when major changes occured in style and equipment. I will see people build a police car or fire engine and place a period incorrect light on it. For example a common error is a pre-1950s vehicle with a Federal Beacon Ray (the round topped rotating beacon) which wasn't introduced until 1949. I've given up pointing that out because 9 out of 10 times the person gets all defensive, about it. Even though I try to make it a minor point and even leave the out of older vehicles frequently being updated with later equipment.

I recently made the mistake of commenting on a diorama, I made a minor suggestion that I thought would really help capture the look the diorama was going for and not only got a "whatever, I know all about this subject"  from the original poster but got jumped on by some of his buddies (I assume) implying that my comment was rediculous to even suggest someone try to get that detailed (the extra bit I suggested would have taken about 5 minutes, maybe). A "hey, thanks, but I like it as is" would have been fine, but instead I got negative comments about what I intended (and really can't see how it was taken any other way) as a minor "hey this might make it even better"

Then on the other end you see a lot of people complaining that nobody comments on their work.

I think the biggest difference between a "rivet counter" and an honest critic is that the rivet counter is trying to show how smart he is, and the honest critic is trying to be helpful. Getting into a pissing match about under or over weathering is merely opinion. I build mostly cars, and like the factory fresh or car show clean. The Doog likes rust buckets, neither of us are right. Other then we both LIKE what we build.

Thanks for wieghing in on this ,thats a very good way to put a description of a rivit -counter .I think that some of the best ,and most thoughtful modelers on here will answer in that fashion ,these may not only be the most confident ,the best modelers and would prolly not throw the 'RC' label around as quickly or freely as others .I think it almost shows that on here one must be careful of questions and replies to certain modelers who may not be confident enough to put the proper amount of thought prior to labeling someone incorrectly. Some of you are going on long but dont worry about it ,this is an excellent post/reply so far and I hope some more guys post thier thoughts.Personally I am of the opinion that there are no stupid questions ,and even the most backward hillbilly will spew out a verbal gem once and a while ,and if you arent listening ,you will miss it.

Most people include a "critiques/suggestions are welcomed/sought" when they post their works. This can be an open door for the "rivet counter" to come storming in.

There are people on this site who have openly stated that they do not give "atta boy" or "back slapper" responses to posted works. If they are not allowed to "critique", they will stay silent.

I guess one's view of the "rivet counter" stems from what one is looking to accomplish with their building.

If your goal is to be a force to be reckoned with on the contest circuit or to gain employment in a museum, the "rivet counter" could provide a valuable service in pushing you to the most historically accurate representation possible.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to fill your shelf with builds that make YOU happy and your idea of happy isn't wedded to pure historical accuracy, then "rivet counters" are a bunch of blowhards who need not inject themselves into the conversation.

Thank goodness the post is provoking these replies .I am sure that all of us are more aware of the 'RC' label and how different peoples ideas are .I think I can safely say that 'RC' is not a relevant modeling term. keep em' coming men!!

I think many of you are barking up the wrong tree........if you really go and look at the kind of discussions you are referring to, they are mostly over matters that have nothing to do with the accuracy of the build per say, but on aesthetic principals, such as weathering....

Most folks in here have no problem constructing a kit....finishing it is where the opinions start creeping in...

Hans, you might have gone on "too long" but you've been going on too long about all the right stuff!

FastasEF

Hans, you said that you were involved with artillery for quite some time. I agree to an extent that if someone like you, that knew a thing or three about the given subject with first hand experience, came along and commented on serious deficiency of a kit it should be listened to but, I have some questions/comments on that.

What if I'm building an older kit that comes wrong and just build it oob. There is no way that I am even going to touch it again when it's finished if that's when the comment is made. In my mindset, the model is done, it's going on the shelf and if I happen to build the same kit again, then I will put what you said into the kit. OR, what if I just don't have the skill to change said problems? Even cutting and shaping can be a difficult task for some. If you came along mid-build and gave the advice, it would make it easier to change the deficiency but there is still the skill level to factor in.

Josh

Josh, I answered that question with, *** "I I tell them what I,  I   did or would do, never what they should or shouldn't do...  Or, I phrase it like, "That looks really good, I like the effect you got there.. BTW, on your next build, You might want to consider trying XXX....."***  ... meaning that I politely and/or tactfully (as tactfully as I'm capable of anyway) suggest to them that they keep those and other tips & techniques  in mind on their NEXT build, not go back and tear down the one you just finished... 

If cutting and shaping are difficult for a modeler (and makes it apparent), I'll always offer to explain to them the techniques and materials I use to correct or replace something, and it's never just telling them they have to buy this resin set or that PE set or they're just lousy modelers who should go back to Snap-Tites...  I'll take the time to help as much as I can, and back-channel usually...   If there's a way I can help a guy improve his skill-sets, I'm all for it, and I'm also all for doing it "old school" if I can get away with it... I've found that it's usually not the fact that it's a difficult task, but rather that it's something the guy never thought of before, and thusly never tried it... I don't "think outside the box" (a phrase that irritates the hell outta me, BTW) but rather, think "inside the kitchen junk-drawer"...  I guess it's more like "lateral thinking" than anything else...

In a nutshell, I'm happy to help a guy, not to "get more bang for the buck", but rather to get "maximum bang for less than a buck", knowwhutImean?  I especially like helping beginners, because they have little or nothing to "unlearn".. But in reverse, they sometimes give ME inspiration to try what THEY have done, too..

***"I think some people's mindset is that if you can't build it to look accurate, don't build it at all."***

BINGO!   THAT'S part of what I was refering to with the "AMS" definition... It's also partly why I love building Monogram and Revell kits so much...  I'll do my damnedest to show the "kit-snobs" (or "Kit-Pickers" as another member here calls them) that you CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear with patience, thought, and imagination rather than a fat wallet.... I have to anyway, since 80% of my stash is made up of pre-1990 kits (that percentage is growing, BTW, with the all new kit's prices going up & out of control, but that's a different thread)

There's a lot (A LOT) of guys here that are WAY better modelers than me though, and I take in as much as I can from those guys... But then I try to figure how to do it cheaper than they did, lol..  Sometimes it turns into a "brain-storming session" where everyone's input results in an entirely new innovative idea...   I also know how to take a "Thanks, but No Thanks"  answer, and I don't get my skivies in wad about it...

Wow, looking back, I'm afraid I've gone on far too long here, but I wanted to try and help y'all understand that I ain't gonna advise anyone on anything that I haven't tried or am willing to try, and I'll never advise you rebuild or tear down and start over...

I do agree with you on courtesy going both ways. One should expect criticism when posting their builds but, like I stated, if I thank you for your knowledge and politely decline, I think it polite for you to not take it further. It's been stated previously, that while this being the internet and not a face to face discussion, comments are going to be taken for read/face value so things will come up from time to time regarding misinterpretation.

Hans, you said that you were involved with artillery for quite some time. I agree to an extent that if someone like you, that knew a thing or three about the given subject with first hand experience, came along and commented on serious deficiency of a kit it should be listened to but, I have some questions/comments on that.

What if I'm building an older kit that comes wrong and just build it oob. There is no way that I am even going to touch it again when it's finished if that's when the comment is made. In my mindset, the model is done, it's going on the shelf and if I happen to build the same kit again, then I will put what you said into the kit. OR, what if I just don't have the skill to change said problems? Even cutting and shaping can be a difficult task for some. If you came along mid-build and gave the advice, it would make it easier to change the deficiency but there is still the skill level to factor in.

I think some people's mindset is that if you can't build it to look accurate, don't build it at all. I personally think that is utter crap. I will never stop building based on anyone else's opinion, period.

Josh

I think rivet counteing is is a specific term applied too broadly...   I look them as someone who suffers from a lack of attention in other aspects of their lives and make up for it by typing haughty-toned posts about a difference that makes no difference (which is no difference, BTW)... 

They're not to be confused with someone who actually has first-hand knowledge of a system or vehicle and is pointing out errors that are totlally incorrect with regard to the kit's presentation... It's not rivet-counting when an Artilleryman points out to you that, one your diorama, the trails on your 105mm Howitzer need to be spread and spades dug in if you have a figure that's about to load a shell into the breech, or that you have a bunch of personal gear, dufflebags, and packs laying all over the top of the M109s turret that's not tied down in some manner... 

They ARE the ones who looked your B-17G and typed, "You got it all wrong... Yankee Gal didn't have 13 kill-markings when it had the red stabilizers repainted in yellow.  That was 13 Octber 43 and you have it dated when she was at Basingborn on the 12th..." (That's why I normally do my aircraft in spurious squadron and group markings, with my own serial numbers and nose-artwork, BTW)

They're also obsessed with after-market parts and will poo-poo any kit that doesn't feature at least 40.00 dollars worth of PE parts in the cockpit that you can't see into anyway, or will scold you for having failed to correct the tread pattern on the left main gear tire...  They also scoff at any build that features a kit made in the 1960's because the kit was made in the 1960s and only cost 7.00 bucks, and you should have built the one from Ttrumperhasedragongawa for 70.00 bucks because it has the right decal for the left side of the cockpit...

When I critique someone's build, I always try to leave it on an "up" note, and I try never tell them what they should have done instead.. I tell them what I,  I   did or would do, never what they should or shouldn't do...  Or, I phrase it like, "That looks really good, I like the effect you got there.. BTW, on your next build, You might want to consider trying XXX....."

These folks are not to be confused with the folks who suffer from AMS, either.. Advanced Modeling Sydrome is another can o' worms, and beyond the scope of this discussion, although many Rivet Counters do have some form of AMS, but usually they're just posting about what's wrong with your build (but for some reason, never post any of their completed work) and little else...

Wicked answers boy 's!!!  I am more enlightened and really happy I posted this. Spusher right on if you dont wanna wire it then ok just say so . However to  answer critique or a simple question  with essentialy ,to me ,name calling or labeling is wrong and counterproductive.FEF I can see your point as well , I have kits that will be oob simply because they are crappy kits! I was looking at the 1/72 MPC Vulcan bomber which is prolly not that good however me old mum usta take me to abbotsford to see the Vulcan , a very old and cool memory for me,reason enough to build the kit! If a person doesnt want the comments then say so ,but I have never seen a post with that in it. Courtesy is a 2 way street as well. I think a person must be ready to take all that comes thier way in a manner that shows courtesy and the ability to respond maturely. If you guys wanna elaborate go ahead, I find saying things out loud makes a person more aware and leads to open discussion.

I will have to agree with most everything said.

I think `rivet counting' is entirely personal opinion. I don't think there is too much or too little, it is entirely up to the person putting the work in. A few things though...

If I pick up a kit, say it's an older kit that everyone knows isn't accurate, I may have picked up the kit purely for pleasure and not to ... `update', we'll say. I like the box-art, I like the subject, whatever, I bought it and I want to build it. So I start building it, I post progress pictures, get, "hey, that's nice" comments, etc. and then someone posts stating that said kit isn't accurate, this is wrong, that is wrong, do this, blah blah. When I post next, I state that I picked the kit up purely for an oob build and, although the comments are welcome and appreciated, I'm not interested in updating the kit to more accurate standards as I, frankly and not to be rude, do not currently care. Now the situation goes the other way, I didn't mention rivet counting or make accusations, I purely stated that it wasn't my intention to add any detail. If comments are made prior to that first comment about inaccuracy, should one let it go or again state they are not interested yet again?

I stated above about it being for pleasure. I do know that this term is different for everyone, some people build to just build oob, and others to make it as absolutely close to the real thing as possible. If I build something oob, build it to the T the way the instructions say and am pleased with it despite it's inaccuracy, then so be it, I don't see it as anyone's but my own problem if there are things wrong. I don't build for `you', I build for me. This is a hard thing for both sides to agree upon though, some people cannot stand that someone build something oob with it's problems, and some people don't understand why add all the extra detail, again, personal opinion.

Now, the way I decipher rivet counting, as I can say I've said it before and am guilty. If I build something, finish it and show people. Someone comes along and says, those two gun barrels are 1/100th of a centimeter off, the rivets on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer are 2/16th's of an inch too far apart, etc., etc. I may say something. Rivet counting is exactly like it sounds, it is someone who says "there are not enough rivets on that wing to be worth building OR, worth building without fixing". I really do not mean to come across as being harsh but, I could live without this unless I say otherwise. (For future reference .)

It is hard for people on both sides, constructive criticism is hard to give and receive. I think that if someone doesn't mind the comments, then they will say so and likewise for someone that doesn't want them. It's up to said party building X subject to state what their intent is with that subject. If I state I appreciate your knowledge but am building it the way I want, it is not your place to say otherwise, it is called courtesy. I will not post on your builds stating that you are putting too much effort into your build, I will either state that I like it and enjoy watching it come along or, in the rare time where I might dislike it, will take the quiet road and say nothing. No harm dished, no harm known.

Like I said, I build for me, you build for you. It doesn't hurt to hear a `nice job' every once in a while and if I want more, I will let you know.

I could go on with odds and ends but shall stop here. If there is something you would like me to elaborate on, just let me know. (Good topic BTW.)

Josh

I would not describe rivet counting as a disliked calling out of a small detail as you described. It is more minute than that. It would be pooh poohing the build because of such a small detail, rather than taking note of the whole build. It sounds like you had a legitimate (although possibly somewhat tongue in cheek as well) super detailing question, based upon a similar tiny item super detailed nearby. If it were me, I would say say yes I did do the wiring in proper order or no I did  not because:a) I did not have the reference (not likely if you can do the linkage so well) b)I did not feel like doing that also, or c) I did not think of that. In the end, we are building for ourselves, even if we enter in to a contest. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Thank s for the response I think that it is becoming clearer that 'rivit counting ' is a term used when a person requires a description of someone who points out something they dont like.  ie I saw a great piece of work where a tiny linkage was detailed to hell and back but when I asked quite politly if the engine was wired correctly re the firing order I was told that was rivit counting?! Pretty obvious that 'rivit counting ' is in the eye of the person who beaks off about it and they set their own parameters.I think super detailing is awesome- the smaller the better and it never becomes 'rivit counting' it is up to the modeler to determine when to stop. I personally think models are raw material and need to be finished to the owners satisfaction.As for flawed kits if a guy aint happy then fix it ,dont whine about it. This post is great because it is only attracting comments from the best on here

Those are very subjective questions. I would answer that super detailing is when the builder adds lots of stuff to any stock kit to lift it way above what one can build out of box or even with some simple add ons. Be they pre made after market resin, photo etch brass, or decals. or what some other builder creates on their own with epoxy, sheet and rod plastic, and various sheets and rods of brass, lead foil, or some other mediums that their creative genius can think up.

In my book the rivet counter is the one who calls out a flaw that 99.99% of modelers would not notice nor care about. (the angle or placement of a panel line or access panel) And then bash the kit as 'whatever" due to high expectations of perfection due to it being a new technology kit. Lets face it, models are created and built by people with all our inherent limitations and flaws. Out of personal experience I could bash Italeri's 1/35 M901 ITV kit due to it lacking details, using an early style road wheels, or a few other flaws that were in the kit compared to the ones I served on. Instead I was very happy to have the kit, added the details I felt it lacked to bring it up to peculiarities of the tracks I served on, and detailed out the turret to make a more accurate one (and ignored the road wheel issue- we occasionally got the old ones for replacements). 

A rivet counter is not the person who calls out the obvious- "the Emperor is not wearing any clothes!". Lindberg's 1/72 Japanese sub was a prime example here last year, a few die hard defenders called out as rivet counters those who called out the obvious and multiple flaws on that kit.

This is exactly what I was looking for with this post .Intelligent responses, perhaps delving deeper past the obvious lack of info that can occur in a comment or posting ,the reason for all the 'emoticons' or symbols guys put in to clarify thier meaning.Thanks for the response , am looking forward to the best from everyone who looks in on this. Perhaps a better post would be "When detailing becomes super detailing which then becomes rivit counting" Or is rivit counting only a description for the person who critiques others work?

It's all in the delivery. As G pointed out, conversations face to face allow the participants to gage the other and the delivery- tone of voice, facial expression, etc. With the Internet we loose much of that and the same phrase or comment delivered face to face without any mis interpretation and hurt feelings will cause a flame war on here. And while some folks critiques are rivet counting and can be construed as a "look at how much I know about this particular subject", others are dead bang helpful when delivered in a timely manner. (I got one of those on here on a kit a couple years back and was quite happy to receive the critique before completion of the kit) In my particular view, I like to give an atta boy along with and aw shoots I see.... (your paint looks great, but ya may wanna check the left wingnut seam). Just a way found to get better results in life as opposed to the straight up verbal slap (which also has its value in the right time and circumstances). But lets face it, some critiques, no matter how well intentioned and delivered will go nowhere as the recipient is not in a mindset to accept any. But if you have something helpful to say, by all means say it. Let the other fellow say later, "thanks, but not thanks". Because some other modeler here may read what you have just critiqued and find it most useful.

...and yes G I recall the metal barrel seam you refer to...

Thank you for taking the time to read and digest the post .The answer(?) is your opinion and that is what I'm looking for .Your intelligent and mature response to the glaring omission or mistake pointed out  is the difference between labeling ,and being able to take a critique or comment, and not extrapolating to the negative extreme.Please feel free to expand on your answer after sleepin' on it.