where did everyone go?

hkshooter

(...)

I'm saddened that so many of some very good folks left the forum a couple of years ago. It's not the same place. Myself, it took many months before I decided to try to accept and use the new format. I still hate it and I don't spend nearly the time here I used to.

(...)

Same feelling over here!

I like the adds. The 1/32 scale Mitchell bomber advertised by Sprue Brothers is very tempting.

The format is what it is, it will evolve live the techniques involved with building models. Slick or slow I enjoy it here and could not find the time to join any other modeling forum.

LEM? I like the comparison 'To each his own watering hole (bar)'  Yet if every small group breaks away and starts another small forum it will weaken all the established existing ones. Another way to look at is everyone has a favorite sand box, its unfortunate some bad cats drop by to leave stinky bits now & then.

True enough, SF, but we don't get to vote here with our money, only our feet. People, for whatever reason, decide that the bar they've been going to isn't the right place for them, should we force them to stay and drink?

No, it's better to break up into smaller groups, then lose people from the hobby entirely. I'm both an FSMer and a LEMur, and am proud to be part of both groups.

mfsob

I second the motion that the "new and improved" site has a lot to do with the decreased traffic. I know Bill is going to say "change is good," but when you turn something that worked great into something that ... doesnj't ... then no, change just so you can cram as many ads as possible into the space allowed isn't good.

As a high-posting modeler here, I call FSM my home.

Been here since 2007, seen people come and go, and I've watched the dynamics of the forums shift and went through "The Change" same as everyone. By now, I'm used to it, and hardly remember the old format. The new one works fine for me; always something I wish I could change, but at the end of the day I post my WIPs, write my articles from them, and continue to get published.Still get great critique, can hold my own with the arses, and step up and admit when I've been one myself.

Personally, I don't lament who's here or who's not. Life goes on; people's lives and obligations change, just like mine did when I've been very busy working this past year and absent from the forums for a good while of it.You accept the change, make new friends, and don't spend time grousing about "how good it used to be". What a recipe for misery.

This "LEM" thing reminds me of a dirt bike racing club called "The Fast Boys"--I always said I would never be caught dead in a group with such a self-congratulatory name. I've been invited to other forums but have no interest. I'm not into elite "members only" type of cliques or clubs, or groups that seek to insulate themselves from the sometime-uncomfortable requirement of accepting and welcoming people with whom they can't easily relate.. I'm sure I'm completely wrong about the character of people involved in it, but the whole stated raison d;'etre of it strikes a sour chord with me. No offense intended.

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but without change we would be carving basswood into biplanes, instead of slide molded styrene, and we would be communicating by smoke signals instead of the internet.

Change for change's sake is bad, but change for good is, well GOOD!

The forum software is nothing. A forum isn't the sum total of its programming, but the people who use it. The people is the reason I keep hanging around, even though it is obvious that many people either don't bother to post, or have left for "greener" pastures.

the doog

This "LEM" thing reminds me of a dirt bike racing club called "The Fast Boys"--I always said I would never be caught dead in a group with such a self-congratulatory name.

You mean like Finescale?

Honestly, I don'y understand all this whining over the "new forums". Really, isn't life too short for this drivel? I understand why some members left, but again, to me, it was more of the same whining over PC this and that. FSM has really relaxed their Odds & Ends rules. It used to be that you couldn't talk about anything that wasn't in some way model related. Does anyone notice that almost nothing in Odds & Ends is model related?

Quit crying and start building.

Where did everyone go?  

The ones who matter are still here...

Aw, Manny, you DO care!

Hurray for Manny!

People are going to come & go for various reasons. I probably looked at the FSM site/forums a dozen times over the summer. Between yardwork and my 3-4 ball games a week, I just shut down the modeling portion of my brain from June - late September.

Bgrigg

 

the doog:

 

This "LEM" thing reminds me of a dirt bike racing club called "The Fast Boys"--I always said I would never be caught dead in a group with such a self-congratulatory name.

 

 

You mean like Finescale?

I know that, Karl. And the League of Extraordinary Modelers is a rip off from the movie "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and is a joke, rather than self-congratulatory. We call ourselves LEMurs, but only after the movie "Madagascar" came out, as opposed to the Roman word that means ghostlike (which the animal is named after).

The LAST thing we do is take ourselves seriously. If you knew us, and you do know some of us, you would also know that.

Egg Zachary   ^

Oh and hey, Unca' Tony the Mutt. You've been a LEM member for over two years now haven't you? lol

Bgrigg

I know that, Karl. And the League of Extraordinary Modelers is a rip off from the movie "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and is a joke, rather than self-congratulatory. We call ourselves LEMurs, but only after the movie "Madagascar" came out, as opposed to the Roman word that means ghostlike (which the animal is named after).

The LAST thing we do is take ourselves seriously. If you knew us, and you do know some of us, you would also know that.

And like I said, I'm not "issuing a pronouncement" on the integrity of the members or trying to judge your motives. I'm sure I know and am fast friends with several of your members.

Maybe I misunderstand your group. For instance--how does one gain membership? Is it through an "approval process"? And based upon what criteria? Do you have to be "sponsored" or "vouched for" by another member? Or are your modeling skills your ticket in?

Karl,

while I can't speak for Bill, or the LEM itself for that matter,  I was invited by a member but I think you can apply as well. There was no 'criteria' I had to meet and model skills were definitely not considered.

Even that forum has changed over the years, the group of 'regulars' that posted actively years ago has changed a bit, there are many people that I hardly ever see now and some that seem to have disappeared altogether. I would assume that the reasons for the LEM's existence has changed as well over the years, while it may have been a dust up here that gave birth to it in 2004, I don't think any of that really matters to the LEMurs now.

It's mostly just regular guys building models and stuff, not that I am super active there or anything but I do pop in from time to time and check stuff out, or join in a group build. It's really just another everyday model forum IMO.

Like Ken says, it's mostly by invite, but you fill out the same form that anyone who finds the site can fill out for application. YES, it's by application, but modeling skills are not a factor, after all, I'm a member! What is a factor is how you act online. Spew hatred and nastiness and expect to be declined. Be reasonable and willing to live within the rules and you're pretty much in. Again, I'm a member!

If one does search out the site, you'll find that you can't even "lurk" there. All you'll pretty much see is a link on how to become a member. Here's the blurb in it's entirety:

To become a member of The L.E.M., you must apply.

Your application will be reviewed by the admin team who will make a prompt decision.

Please supply us with enough information to make this decision process as simple as possible. If you are a member of another forum, please supply us with your user name and the forum you attend.

Please note that this site is not a pay to use site, this site is made possible through donations from some of the active members.

The rules of the L.E.M. are quite simple.
- No use of foul language.
- No political debates.
- No religious debates
- Before you type a message ...... think!!!
- And then think again!

Always remember you are a guest on this forum,
and guests can be asked to leave.

Very few people are asked to leave, but it happens, and for all the good reasons.

Has it been two years already Ken?  I don't remember being invited,the door was open and I just walked right in and set up shop.

There was a lot of activity when I first started posting at the LEM but like all the sites that activity has slowed to nothing like what it was.  With the economy like it is that's no surprise,hobbies are curtailed just like eating out and going to the movies.

Peace

Tony Lee

I think it was the summer of 2008 Tony but you can check your profile there to be sure.

SMW was going through one of it's 'even deader than usual' phases and you asked me via e-mail what was up, I think I sent you the link to the LEM at that point.

Bgrigg

Like Ken says, it's mostly by invite, but you fill out the same form that anyone who finds the site can fill out for application. YES, it's by application, but modeling skills are not a factor, after all, I'm a member! What is a factor is how you act online. Spew hatred and nastiness and expect to be declined. Be reasonable and willing to live within the rules and you're pretty much in. Again, I'm a member!

If one does search out the site, you'll find that you can't even "lurk" there.

 

Very few people are asked to leave, but it happens, and for all the good reasons.

Well, it would admittedly be narrow-minded of me to paint the whole group w\ith one big brush, and I'm sure that the members there don't encapsulate whatever cynical or angry motives might have underwritten the founding of the group, but something about the whole premise of it still bugs me. Namely the fact that it seems somewhat insulated and exclusionary, if not in practice, then in theory.

I've never cared for groups, cliques, clubs, where you had to be "approved" for membership, as if you had to meet a certain criteria. I think that that is a way of pre-judging a person, and a way to "keep out the riff raff"--which is itself an exclusionary, somewhat-elitist motivation. I mean, why not just go over to say, Armorama? Why not just say ":Hey, I'll see you guys on Armorama"? Why start up a brand new forum/group where you have to be "approved"? Is it just a way to ensure you won't get unwanted critique? Or to guarantee "attaboys"? Hmmmm....certainly not anything illegal or immoral or unethical in that, but ....... not my speed.

I'm sure that the reasons people post and attend that forum/group now are different than whatever motives provided its genesis. At least I hope so?

Well you heard it right here folks. Camo Kid has confessed to leading me astray.

Innocent ignorance is bliss.

Tony Lee

Pvt Mutt

Well you heard it right here folks. Camo Kid has confessed to leading me astray.

Innocent ignorance is bliss.

Tony Lee

HAHA!

Like you Tony, I am a member of far too many modeling forums.

Bgrigg

Like Ken says, it's mostly by invite, but you fill out the same form that anyone who finds the site can fill out for application. YES, it's by application, but modeling skills are not a factor, after all, I'm a member! What is a factor is how you act online. Spew hatred and nastiness and expect to be declined. Be reasonable and willing to live within the rules and you're pretty much in. Again, I'm a member!

 

the doog

 

 

Hmmm.... (thinking....)

 

Well, it would admittedly be narrow-minded of me to paint the whole group w\ith one big brush, and I'm sure that the members there don't encapsulate whatever cynical or angry motives might have underwritten the founding of the group, but something about the whole premise of it still bugs me. Namely the fact that it seems somewhat insulated and exclusionary, if not in practice, then in theory.

I've never cared for groups, cliques, clubs, where you had to be "approved" for membership, as if you had to meet a certain criteria. I think that that is a way of pre-judging a person, and a way to "keep out the riff raff"--which is itself an exclusionary, somewhat-elitist motivation. I mean, why not just go over to say, Armorama? Why not just say ":Hey, I'll see you guys on Armorama"? Why start up a brand new forum/group where you have to be "approved"? Is it just a way to ensure you won't get unwanted critique? Or to guarantee "attaboys"? Hmmmm....certainly not anything illegal or immoral or unethical in that, but ....... not my speed.

I'm sure that the reasons people post and attend that forum/group now are different than whatever motives provided its genesis. At least I hope so?

The approval process only insures that trolls are blocked from attending the site, which isn't a bad thing. The admins figure if you cause nothing but trouble on FSM or Armorama or wherever, then you'll likely cause trouble on the LEM and we don't want or need to deal with that.

There's been a few dust-ups on the site, but they are dealt with quickly, and we move on. It's just a club that's different from this "club". To borrow Hans' example, the FSM is a big, famous and wide open bar, where anyone can go. They have a big sign outside and all are welcome. Some get tossed out, some leave on their own and some stay on for years. The LEM is not really a "private club" just one that doesn't advertise. You have to know where the door is, and it's locked only until we (they actually, I don't have a say nor do I want one) see who's there and let them in. It's smaller, and quieter, and we can hear each other talking over the background noise. We've got carpet on the floor, not straw,  so it's more like a lounge than a bar, perhaps? There is a means to advertise your wares if you are a manufacturer, and members can post a notice online that they have kits for sale, though all transactions are via PM and not the responsibility of the moderators.

I usually go further than that and like Groucho Marx refuse to join any group that will have me as a member, but the LEM is not like that at all. It's just a group of people who decided that they would start a forum up of their own, much like Swanny did. Yes, it was born of a "dust-up", but golly gee, didn't America start out much the same way?

Manstein's revenge

 

So what is asked on the application, "Will you be good?"   I still don't understand the "application process"...that brings too much subjective thinking intot the approval process, IMO...

 

IIRC it's pretty much:

Why do you want to be a member?

Are you a member elsewhere? If so, what is your user name there?

Are you willing to live within our rules?

The rules are simple and straight forward. Look at it this way, you came on board here and got punted a number of times for whatever reasons. FSM has a criteria that they compare our activities to, and deal with us in their own manner. Lucky for all of us, they let you back in. You had to modify how you acted online to stay on here, which you obviously were willing to do, or you wouldn't be here today. The LEM has a similar criteria (almost exactly the same, actually), they just put it out front. To keep up with the bar analogy, some bars don't let in gang members wearing their colors. The LEM want to see if you normally wear colors. If so, they won't let you join.

It's about as private as a membership to Costco is, except the LEM doesn't have a yearly fee or take your picture.

Bgrigg

Manstein's revenge:

 

So what is asked on the application, "Will you be good?"   I still don't understand the "application process"...that brings too much subjective thinking intot the approval process, IMO...

 

 

IIRC it's pretty much:

Why do you want to be a member?

Are you a member elsewhere? If so, what is your user name there?

Are you willing to live within our rules?

The rules are simple and straight forward. Look at it this way, you came on board here and got punted a number of times for whatever reasons. FSM has a criteria that they compare our activities to, and deal with us in their own manner. Lucky for all of us, they let you back in. You had to modify how you acted online to stay on here, which you obviously were willing to do, or you wouldn't be here today. The LEM has a similar criteria (almost exactly the same, actually), they just put it out front. To keep up with the bar analogy, some bars don't let in gang members wearing their colors. The LEM want to see if you normally wear colors. If so, they won't let you join.

It's about as private as a membership to Costco is, except the LEM doesn't have a yearly fee or take your picture.

Why do you want to be a member?  Cause I love to build models.

Are you a member elsewhere? If so, what is your user name there? No.

Are you willing to live within our rules?   Yes.

...am I in?

As I keep saying, I don't have any say. I'd let you in, though I'm crazy!

Bgrigg

The approval process only insures that trolls are blocked from attending the site, which isn't a bad thing. The admins figure if you cause nothing but trouble on FSM or Armorama or wherever, then you'll likely cause trouble on the LEM and we don't want or need to deal with that.

Bgrigg

The LEM is not really a "private club" just one that doesn't advertise. You have to know where the door is, and it's locked only until we (they actually, I don't have a say nor do I want one) see who's there and let them in. It's smaller, and quieter, and we can hear each other talking over the background noise.

The modern requirement to learn to deal with the strange and unfamiliar social dynamics of sites like this which attract all types and creeds has taught me much about both myself and others. I wouldn't want to insulate and protect myself from those unexpected snafu's, as I believe that they help to expand a person's orbit and their ability to navigate their cyber-environment, no matter how unfamiliar.

Bgrigg

As I keep saying, I don't have any say. I'd let you in, though I'm crazy!

crazy is... as crazy does.. 'we're all a lil nutty in our own ways... some are jusr more subtle than others..

We all have our reasons for where we go.. and what we do.. the internet makes it soooo easy..

I can barely keep up with the threads I'm following on here.. much less another ...lol..

the doog

 

Bgrigg:

 

The approval process only insures that trolls are blocked from attending the site, which isn't a bad thing. The admins figure if you cause nothing but trouble on FSM or Armorama or wherever, then you'll likely cause trouble on the LEM and we don't want or need to deal with that.

Hmmm. See, that bugs me. Because it judges and seals in concrete a person's behavior as being immutable and unchangeable. You yourself just made an apt analogy of Manny's previous behavior, and if he had applied to the LEM based on his past behavior, he would have been undoubtedly DIS-approved of in his earliest days here when his PTS from the Eastern Front had him somewhat more ornery.( Manny!) Trolls are dealt with pretty quickly here on FSM; I don't see how FSM's "door policies" are much different in terms of giving people the boot,. honestly.

 

 

Bgrigg:

The LEM is not really a "private club" just one that doesn't advertise. You have to know where the door is, and it's locked only until we (they actually, I don't have a say nor do I want one) see who's there and let them in. It's smaller, and quieter, and we can hear each other talking over the background noise.

Meh....yeah, that too, bothers me, lol. Seems like an insulated community. Kinda like a "gated community" designed to keep out the "unpleasant" people. I think that the more that you insulate yourself from disagreeable types, the less tolerable and able to deal with those situations in real life,

 

The modern requirement to learn to deal with the strange and unfamiliar social dynamics of sites like this which attract all types and creeds has taught me much about both myself and others. I wouldn't want to insulate and protect myself from those unexpected snafu's, as I believe that they help to expand a person's orbit and their ability to navigate their cyber-environment, no matter how unfamiliar.

Well, since it's a free world, you don't have to like it, or join. And I understand why you wouldn't. It's one reason I keep active on this site. I'm not going to stop being an online buddy of yours because of that.

But think about it this way, you're a 'fair' guitarist who could get work at any studio, but you've chosen to join an "exclusive" band. Why? Probably because you like the guys, enjoy the music and have some say in what the band does. Did you apply to the band, or did they invite you? The LEM is "my" band. I'm not tied to the band, as I can play with other bands if I want, but I can always "go home" when and if I choose.

US Immigration works the same way the LEM application works. We want to know who is coming through the door, or do you think DC should let everyone in, and figure out which are the smugglers and terrorists after the fact?

The LEM isn't a 'star chamber' where a group of shadowy figures decide on people's fates from the dark corner. We just want to know if you will fit in the group. Trust me, there is plenty of diversity and occasionally animosity, we ARE human, after all, but all-in-all, it's a fun bunch of guys.