where did everyone go?

Aw, Manny, you DO care!

Where did everyone go?  

The ones who matter are still here...

Honestly, I don'y understand all this whining over the "new forums". Really, isn't life too short for this drivel? I understand why some members left, but again, to me, it was more of the same whining over PC this and that. FSM has really relaxed their Odds & Ends rules. It used to be that you couldn't talk about anything that wasn't in some way model related. Does anyone notice that almost nothing in Odds & Ends is model related?

Quit crying and start building.

the doog

This "LEM" thing reminds me of a dirt bike racing club called "The Fast Boys"--I always said I would never be caught dead in a group with such a self-congratulatory name.

You mean like Finescale?

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but without change we would be carving basswood into biplanes, instead of slide molded styrene, and we would be communicating by smoke signals instead of the internet.

Change for change's sake is bad, but change for good is, well GOOD!

The forum software is nothing. A forum isn't the sum total of its programming, but the people who use it. The people is the reason I keep hanging around, even though it is obvious that many people either don't bother to post, or have left for "greener" pastures.

As a high-posting modeler here, I call FSM my home.

Been here since 2007, seen people come and go, and I've watched the dynamics of the forums shift and went through "The Change" same as everyone. By now, I'm used to it, and hardly remember the old format. The new one works fine for me; always something I wish I could change, but at the end of the day I post my WIPs, write my articles from them, and continue to get published.Still get great critique, can hold my own with the arses, and step up and admit when I've been one myself.

Personally, I don't lament who's here or who's not. Life goes on; people's lives and obligations change, just like mine did when I've been very busy working this past year and absent from the forums for a good while of it.You accept the change, make new friends, and don't spend time grousing about "how good it used to be". What a recipe for misery.

This "LEM" thing reminds me of a dirt bike racing club called "The Fast Boys"--I always said I would never be caught dead in a group with such a self-congratulatory name. I've been invited to other forums but have no interest. I'm not into elite "members only" type of cliques or clubs, or groups that seek to insulate themselves from the sometime-uncomfortable requirement of accepting and welcoming people with whom they can't easily relate.. I'm sure I'm completely wrong about the character of people involved in it, but the whole stated raison d;'etre of it strikes a sour chord with me. No offense intended.

mfsob

I second the motion that the "new and improved" site has a lot to do with the decreased traffic. I know Bill is going to say "change is good," but when you turn something that worked great into something that ... doesnj't ... then no, change just so you can cram as many ads as possible into the space allowed isn't good.

True enough, SF, but we don't get to vote here with our money, only our feet. People, for whatever reason, decide that the bar they've been going to isn't the right place for them, should we force them to stay and drink?

No, it's better to break up into smaller groups, then lose people from the hobby entirely. I'm both an FSMer and a LEMur, and am proud to be part of both groups.

I like the adds. The 1/32 scale Mitchell bomber advertised by Sprue Brothers is very tempting.

The format is what it is, it will evolve live the techniques involved with building models. Slick or slow I enjoy it here and could not find the time to join any other modeling forum.

LEM? I like the comparison 'To each his own watering hole (bar)'  Yet if every small group breaks away and starts another small forum it will weaken all the established existing ones. Another way to look at is everyone has a favorite sand box, its unfortunate some bad cats drop by to leave stinky bits now & then.

hkshooter

(...)

I'm saddened that so many of some very good folks left the forum a couple of years ago. It's not the same place. Myself, it took many months before I decided to try to accept and use the new format. I still hate it and I don't spend nearly the time here I used to.

(...)

Same feelling over here!

1/35, but then that will start a whole new discussion - ok, so if this is no longer the place to post / chat / find good advise, then what sites are people going to?  Is FSM paying attention or does ad space speak louder?

No, it's more like a bunch of friends, who rather than hang around harping and carping about how "bad" FSM is/was/will be went off and did their own thing. I can think of at least three other forums that started much the same way. They just found or founded a different bar. Nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is hanging around and poisoning the well, over and over again. I've met some good people on this forum, and then went on to meet some of them in real life. Out of that I have managed to pickup a few friends. Some here, some there.

I've never figured out just what went "wrong" on this site, when I joined there was a lot more activity. People (me!) would post twenty or thirty times a day. Now I'm posting a couple of times every other day. We've got a group of people who think "Atta-boys" are the only thing to do, and others who think smack downs equates to constructive criticism. Mostly I just shut up about what other people build, and don't bother posting any work here, as I don't want either an "Atta-boy" or a "WTF did you build it like that for? I build for me, and hang out here for fun. Its not nearly as much fun as it once was, but then neither is our world.

Wow.. A clique of guys who hated the cliques...

Odds & Ends, for me at least, is the forum's Bar (Ten-Forward for you guys in Sci-Fi hooch)... That's where the folks meet to tlak about whatever, where we get to "know" each other, as much as can be anyway...

Rules are simple.. Don't pizz-off the bartender, don't pizz on the floor, and don't get the cops called...

It seems an inevitable path that all net forums go through. From time to time there are big "dust ups" and the forum community gets a douche. I've seen it happen quite a lot in the many forums I visit. Most are usually minor but some, like FSM, are big fiascos that offend lots of thin skinned people and they leave. I missed the most recent here (was off season for me and I was absent) but did cruise the new forum for a bit. Don't know if it's still around or not, don't care.
I wasn't around at all for the first one so I don't have any idea at all what happened there.
It seems that in places like this people develop relationships  in the community much like they would in face to face life. The thing is lots of these relationships would never have happened face to face because some of us (me) are socially backward. The forum allows a venue for folks of like interests to gather and share ideas and experience. But because of it's very nature I believe there is something missing. Something that don't allow lifes little trenches and ruts to be easily avoided and things can grow into a big $hit storm in a hurry. Maybe its the quick temper that gets posted before reason can intervene because the computer allows instant gratification. Maybe it's false courage to open ones yap while hiding behind a screen. I'm no shrink so don't know for sure. One thing I am certain of though. Things can go way wild in a forum very quickly while in a similar situation face to face, things would happen much differently.
I think if folks would just keep right in the front of their mind that "it's the net. Don't let it offend you" and keep reality and the internet seperate they would be much happier and not be so quick to up and leave everytime the *** hit the ventilatour.

I'm saddened that so many of some very good folks left the forum a couple of years ago. It's not the same place. Myself, it took many months before I decided to try to accept and use the new format. I still hate it and I don't spend nearly the time here I used to. But I do come back and inspite of some spilt milk I've shared with a few members and some threads I've gotten locked or posts removed. The place still feels like my modeling home, just not as warm and fuzzy as it used to be. Bilbo Baggins' quote in my sig line pretty much sums up how I feel.

usmc1371

LEM - League of Extraordinary Modelers.

Some years back (2003-2004?), a bunch of guys, who were very active on the forum, got all bent out of shape because of the direction the FSM forum was headed.  Some of them decided to form their own modeling forum called the League of Extraordinary Modelers or LEM.  Those members called themselves LEMurs.  I was a member for about a year.  I'm not even sure if they exist anymore.  From my understanding, a lot of members left.  It might just be me, but the forum doesn't seem to be the same after that.  They were a lot of really good, seasoned modelers.  I kind of viewed them as the knowledgable grandfather you would go to ask questions because he knew everything.  Anyway, if I recall correctly, it was a big fiasco and a lot of people got bent out of shape.  Oh well, it's in the past now...

Oh, we still exist, and are thriving, in fact. Since I've been a member (and I remember you when you were active there), they've changed the forum twice, with none of the gnashing and wailing that happens here. A few people dropped out, for whatever reason, but more show up every time FSM fumbles.  The LEM is growing, though slowly, which isn't really a bad thing.

Yeah, you're right.  I guess I was just waxing nostalic when I was replying to initial post. 

It seems to be a real shame to  me.  I think, not to many years ago, there would be like over hundred people at time on the forum.  I just recently got back into it and I only see like 20 or 30 people on here at a time.

I hope FSM is able to draw more forum users back.  I don't know how.  If I did, I would probably be working for them.

Thanks,that's the first i've heard about it.  Nothing new really,happens within a lot of different sites.

Tony Lee

usmc1371

LEM - League of Extraordinary Modelers.

Oh well, it's in the past now...

LEM - League of Extraordinary Modelers.

Some years back (2003-2004?), a bunch of guys, who were very active on the forum, got all bent out of shape because of the direction the FSM forum was headed.  Some of them decided to form their own modeling forum called the League of Extraordinary Modelers or LEM.  Those members called themselves LEMurs.  I was a member for about a year.  I'm not even sure if they exist anymore.  From my understanding, a lot of members left.  It might just be me, but the forum doesn't seem to be the same after that.  They were a lot of really good, seasoned modelers.  I kind of viewed them as the knowledgable grandfather you would go to ask questions because he knew everything.  Anyway, if I recall correctly, it was a big fiasco and a lot of people got bent out of shape.  Oh well, it's in the past now...

Yeah, you did. It actually happened before I got here, so I missed the actual dust up. As I recall, it was over what passed for an "odds and end" forum, where people got involved in games and arguments. Some people complained, sides were chosen and a bunch of people walked away and formed the LEM, a invitation only forum to which I also belong. It ended up that for a time there was no "odds and ends", but after a time it was brought back.

I LIKE the O&E forum. It lets us (those who can) let down our hair and act a bit silly, or to talk about something that isn't really model oriented. While I agree that arguments over religion or politics should be avoided, adult conversations about those subjects can and have happened without crossing the line into fisticuffs. Unfortunately, it seems as if our society is becoming even more polarized then ever, which is a real shame, for my experience with people is that we aren't really that far apart.

I've long felt that if this forum would eliminate the O&E forum, that many more people would leave. Yes, this is a modeling website, but we aren't plastic and come from a mold, only the kits we build do. We are flesh and blood humans, and we need to talk, laugh and cry sometimes. Hard to do in a strict environment.

Pvt Mutt

Tell me about this LEM purge thing please,I missed it I guess.

Tony Lee

Tell me about this LEM purge thing please,I missed it I guess.

Tony Lee

usmc1371

I was one of the original members to the forum (under a different screen name).  Here's what I've noticed over the years:

1. The new forum set up is poor.
2. Factions develop and drive people away. For instance, if you don't do things the way current leading faction does things, you might just be ignored.
3. An overwhelming persuit of accuracy.  Basically, if you didn't use the "right" color or if you missed a detail, you can be called out on it.  Some people just want to make models, not replicate down to the tinest detail.
4. The Odds and Ends forum results in so many heated debates and arguments.  To me, it's a useless forum.  We're supposed to be talking about modeling here, no the latest rock band.
5. Lack of beginner support.  I've seen a lot of posts by begineers with replys such as "do a search on so-and-so" instead of replying to initial post.  Not very friendly to a new guy.
6. Certain people who take the lead (not by their own doing) and if you don't follow their lead, you're ostracized by the followers.

Basically, it seems like our forum as become like high school.  We have a small "in" crowd and a large "out" crowd.  Sure, some of the "out" people will stay, but a lot will go somewhere else where they can be part of an "in" crowd.  I guess it's just part of human nature.

Some of you older forum members might remember the "LEM" purge some years back.

Just my thoughts,

Jesse

I was one of the original members to the forum (under a different screen name).  Here's what I've noticed over the years:

1. The new forum set up is poor.
2. Factions develop and drive people away. For instance, if you don't do things the way current leading faction does things, you might just be ignored.
3. An overwhelming persuit of accuracy.  Basically, if you didn't use the "right" color or if you missed a detail, you can be called out on it.  Some people just want to make models, not replicate down to the tinest detail.
4. The Odds and Ends forum results in so many heated debates and arguments.  To me, it's a useless forum.  We're supposed to be talking about modeling here, no the latest rock band.
5. Lack of beginner support.  I've seen a lot of posts by begineers with replys such as "do a search on so-and-so" instead of replying to initial post.  Not very friendly to a new guy.
6. Certain people who take the lead (not by their own doing) and if you don't follow their lead, you're ostracized by the followers.

Basically, it seems like our forum as become like high school.  We have a small "in" crowd and a large "out" crowd.  Sure, some of the "out" people will stay, but a lot will go somewhere else where they can be part of an "in" crowd.  I guess it's just part of human nature.

Some of you older forum members might remember the "LEM" purge some years back.

Just my thoughts,

Jesse

iraqiwildman

It's all Manny's fault.

Horse? What scale is the horse?

This horse is still dead, guys.

It's all Manny's fault.

As can be seen from my profile I have not been here long so I can't comment on what was in the past, but I enjoy the forum both for the laughs and from the tips and advice I get. Those of us who are new see it here without he "benefit" of looking at what was with rose color glasses. Only thing I can do is to be active and try to do my part to make the forum of today be a better place, even if I don’t contribute much other than say welcome to other new members.

What really bothers me about this new site is not that there is decreased traffic...

but its that the only forum that is active is odds and ends the majority of wips and builds I see get one or two, if that, responces and tahts it, but a off topic thing gets 12 pages