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I wish to clear up a misconception spread.... Locked

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

Tracy White

 Aaron Skinner:
I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

Respectfully, I dropped it when you requested it.

I wish more companies (Dragon, Trumpeter, Tamiya) posted their instructions. ModelWarships posts them in their reviews; probably the "worst" one if you want to see what people are complaining about is their Scharnhorst kit, which is reviewed here (Instructions on the bottom).

CVL review and instructions here.

Ditto

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:17 AM

Aaron Skinner

Seriously? I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

You now have 13 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

 

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:07 AM

Aaron Skinner
I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

Respectfully, I dropped it when you requested it.

I wish more companies (Dragon, Trumpeter, Tamiya) posted their instructions. ModelWarships posts them in their reviews; probably the "worst" one if you want to see what people are complaining about is their Scharnhorst kit, which is reviewed here (Instructions on the bottom).

CVL review and instructions here.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

Moderator
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  • From: my keyboard dreaming of being at the workbench
Posted by Aaron Skinner on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:00 AM

Seriously? I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

You now have 13 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

 

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:57 AM

Perhaps,

I would still like to hear Mr. White's answer to my two questions.

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:55 AM

 I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

That about sums it up...I'm done.

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:52 AM

Nice to see Mr. White has answered some questions regarding Dragon operations.

Unfortunately, my question about Dragon ownership remains unanswered.

Also, I have tried to obtain PDF copies of kit instructions from the Dragon website but can not locate copies and must conclude that Dragon, unlike Revell, does not offer downloadable PFD copies of kit instructions.

Who can I contact at Dragon regarding this?

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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:41 AM

Aaron Skinner

You now have 15 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

Aaron





MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

GET TO DA CHOPPAH!!!!
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Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:38 AM

Aaron; others have refuted Manstein's points enough for me for now, but I would like to respond to a couple of other posts:

carsanab replied on  06-01-2011 2:03 PM
I agree with Manny....one of the purposes or reasons we post on these forums IS to let everyone including the kit manufacturers what the pros and cons of their products are regardless of whether we are fans of the makers or not. They all have good and bad issues and every kit is different.

-- Snip --

Im sorry but I have to REALLY disagree with this statement. ..in fact I am upset that someone who seems to be as connected as he says with the manufacture or release of its thinks this way. The whole idea of the hobby is for everyone of ANY skill to enjoy the kits available or coming out. to say if you cant handle it there are these other options is really looking down on the newcomers/beginners to the hobby.


That's not the point I was making. The builder has to presume a certain amount of WORK on their part needs to be done. It is a model kit requiring assembly. Now, the question for the manufacturer is one of target. Beginners need or want different features than builders who have progressed a bit. You can't please all groups with the same kit.

I wasn't trying to imply "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen," just that there are options. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If it's too complex, do something simpler. Hey, guess what, I find complex math more complex than I want to do, so I stick to research, web page coding, and plastic model building, which are simpler. Does that mean I'm insulting my abilities to do math?

With regards to my connections; I want to state again just so it is clear, that I work WITH Dragon, not FOR them. I am not a representative and these are not their views; these are my opinions after having worked with them for a couple of years.

Finally, (in inverse order to your posts) I agree that the pros and cons should be discussed. I've listed off things on the CVL kit we got wrong for one reason or another for builders that do care and who want to go all out. I don't think it's slamming a manufacturer to list problems with a kit unless you use phrases like "garbage," etc. One thing to keep in mind though, is that manufacturers do not spend a lot of time watching forums; they're focusing on the next kit to get it out the door. You may think this is a big, powerful group, but it's really a small pond when it comes down to how much time any manufacturer gives it.

iraqiwildman replied on  06-01-2011 2:20 PM
Also, how do I become one of these "insiders" who get to test these new releases?

I can only tell you how I got to where I am... this isn't the only road. I'm 39, married, no kids. About ten years ago I found out that the National Archives has regional branches, and not only was there one near me (Seattle), but they had the records for Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, where most of the Pacific fleet battleships and fleet carriers were worked on. I start hanging out there on weekends and just sit and read the records and scan things I find interesting or potentially helpful.

I start answering questions on websites such as this, SteelNavy, and Modelwarships. I become known as a guru on the Essex class carriers because people have a steady amount of questions and it turns out that I've found a lot of information no one had before. That leads to another person who is helping Dragon contacting me and feeling me out about if I'd be willing to help an unnamed manufacturer (at that time) with a potential Essex class project and can I keep a secret.

Boy, can I! I jump at the opportunity; by this time I'm getting a little tired of answering what feels like the same question over and over, and I figure it will be easier in the long run if I can just steer them to the right kit. This leads to a collaboration with Dragon on their 1/700th CV-16 Lexington and CV-12 Hornet "1945" kits. They work with me a bit, and when they decide to try a 350th CVL, the knowledge of cariers I have puts me in a good position to help out more. I jump at that opportunity as well, but keep in mind that I never received anything more than a thanks for the Essex class work, and I never talked to Dragon about compensation for my time on the CVL project until after the kit was out and I wanted to send some as thanks to some other researchers who had sent me files and information.

The reason I got test shot pieces was that I was the most familiar with the ships and the pieces out of the people who were helping on the project due to the 10-20 hours a month I was spending looking over their CAD and photos and plans. Testing is not as cool as you might think. You have to build the kit and look for problems within a day or two. No putty, no paint, just blaze on through. Then, if you find problems, they might not be fixed based on cost to re-work the molds.

So a lot of it was circumstances and luck. My best advice is to have something to offer that no one else does. In my case it was information and a willingnes to help.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: my keyboard dreaming of being at the workbench
Posted by Aaron Skinner on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:21 AM

As far as I can tell this thread has become a public spat between two Forum members. I think it's time to move on and stop belaboring the same points over and over and stop making it personal. This is the only warning you will receive.

You now have 15 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

Aaron

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 6:45 AM

bbrowniii

 Manstein's revenge:

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...

 

Hey Manny

Did you ever see the movie A Few Good Men? At the start of the trial, Kevin Bacon's character opens the prosecution with a few lines about 'The fact of the case...'

The facts of this case are that, in response to the post you cite above, Tracy's initial response did not defend, or even mention, either the instructions or Dragon. He simply said he didn't think the particular work around was necessary, and he offered any assistance he could provide:

Eh, I didn't think Pete's procedure was really necessary on mine. What I did was hold all three pieces (main deck, left hangar bulkhead piece, right hangar bulkhead piece) loosely together and then put them in place, and THEN start gluing. You didn't have to fit them exactly until you started gluing, and I just started with gluing the main deck as it holds the other pieces more or less in place.

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

He also has not 'inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate'. If you recall, I ASKED him a questinon about Dragon's instructions. So if anyone is guilty of inserting Tracy into the debate, it is I. You might recall that exchange. You posted that it was a
Great question---let's move that discussion over to my dedicated thread on the subject...I'm gonna continue a virtual picket of them until they do something about it...
As Kevin Bacon's character said, 'These are the facts of the case, and the facts are not in dispute...' (or something like that... Stick out tongue

...interesting that you say that YOU inserted him in the middle of this.  I don't think you have that kinda control over him.  Anyone that hangs out in SHIPS are familair with his "defend Dragon to the last breath" stand on any critique that comes Dragon's way.  eg: when he defended the high cost of Dragon's German destroyer vs the Trumpeter one, and in the Scharnhorst thread where the shape of the bow came into question...etc...

Ah, I see you fancy yourself a trial lawyer now.  I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

Oh, and wasn't it you that "gave pause" about buying the new Dragon carrier reviewed in the latest issue of FSM because of the reviewer's remarks about the instructions?

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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 11:33 PM

Manstein's revenge

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...

Hey Manny

Did you ever see the movie A Few Good Men? At the start of the trial, Kevin Bacon's character opens the prosecution with a few lines about 'The fact of the case...'

The facts of this case are that, in response to the post you cite above, Tracy's initial response did not defend, or even mention, either the instructions or Dragon. He simply said he didn't think the particular work around was necessary, and he offered any assistance he could provide:

Eh, I didn't think Pete's procedure was really necessary on mine. What I did was hold all three pieces (main deck, left hangar bulkhead piece, right hangar bulkhead piece) loosely together and then put them in place, and THEN start gluing. You didn't have to fit them exactly until you started gluing, and I just started with gluing the main deck as it holds the other pieces more or less in place.

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

He also has not 'inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate'. If you recall, I ASKED him a questinon about Dragon's instructions. So if anyone is guilty of inserting Tracy into the debate, it is I. You might recall that exchange. You posted that it was a
Great question---let's move that discussion over to my dedicated thread on the subject...I'm gonna continue a virtual picket of them until they do something about it...
As Kevin Bacon's character said, 'These are the facts of the case, and the facts are not in dispute...' (or something like that... Stick out tongue

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by The Navigator on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:42 PM

Will do! Yes

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:33 PM

The Navigator

The best solution would be for Manny to post the instructions for us who haven't seen them. Reviews criticizing the directions could be further exhibits. Mr.Tracy, or preferably a rep from Dragon could explain their side and defend the instructions. Then we could judge for ourselves and maybe begin to pressure Dragon to improve their instructions.

No need for that...I don't have the time nor inclination to do it---besides, no one is arguing as to whether or not their instructions are bad, even Tracy concedes that point.  If you want more proof than Tracy's word for it, google Dragon kit reviews and read for yourself, or read about others' experience with them, as in the thread in SHIPS that started this discussion.

Or, read the three samples I quoted from three very well-respected modeling sites for kit reviews...

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Here
Posted by The Navigator on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 10:25 PM

It would be a great disservice to everyone on this forum if this discussion became personal. Aaron would come in and lock everything up and nothing would be accomplished.

The best solution would be for Manny to post the instructions for us who haven't seen them. Reviews criticizing the directions could be further exhibits. Mr.White, or preferably a rep from Dragon could explain their side and defend the instructions. Then we could judge for ourselves and maybe begin to pressure Dragon to improve their instructions.

For the record, I have built models for over 30 yrs., none a ship kit by Dragon. However, I have built Tamiya kits entirely in Japanese with no problems, as well as the old Williams Brothers kits. I look forward to seeing these instructions for myself and their (hopeful) improvement.

Mike

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 9:55 PM

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...And he didn't help his argument when many took his "hand-holding" comment as patronizing and a slap in the face to anyone who is critical of Dragon's kits.  He came off to me as sounding like a "real" model builder doesn't need good instructions and that we should all just man-up...just because it is a hobby doesn't mean it has to confusing...

I am not faulting him for Dragon's shortcomings or apparent lack of concern regarding the criticism their instructions garner from pratically every reviewer on the web.  In fact, he has also stated that Dragon doesn't care enough about their instructions.  What I--and others--are doing is pointing out that he can't be impartial on the topic because he has a vested interest in Dragon, a conflict of interest. He has inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate so he can't play the victim in this...he chose to be the spokesperson for Dragon and I continued to challenge him in that role. 

I have nothing personal against Tracy or Dragon. I have more money sunk into that company than I care to think about.  As far as the kit issue, he has stated in the past in other threads that he---and others---receive "complimentary" kits for the work he does for them. 

What do I want him to do about Dragon's instructions?  Nothing.  It isn't his job.  They know the issues they have with them.  I believe Tracy is right:  they don't really care enough to do anything about them.  So what I will continue to do is speak up about how Dragon's instructions are sub-standard in the industry that they claim to lead in.  I didn't drag Tracy into this debate.  He inserted himself into it.  And if Tracy feels the need to come to their defense again, we can debate it all over again...
  • Member since
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Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 9:22 PM

Manstein's revenge

You took a swipe by aiming this entire thread towards me in a an attempt to make it look like I'm making this whole "Dragon instructions generally suck" as something I just made up...just admit that you can't be objective about Dragon because of the obvious conflict of interest that exists and agree to disagree...OR we can keep going.  I'll be happy to provide more review quotes that call Dragon out on this issue.  But if you want to make it personal, I'm game for that as well...I can do this forever...keep 'em coming...travel safely. Wink

Manny

You're all about 'keeping it real' and calling a spade a spade, go I'm going to call BS on this post. Go back and read the first post on this thread. The 'swipe' that Tracy took at you had NOTHING to do with instructions. Instead, he was defending himself against your (apparently erroneous claim) that he is biased because he receives test market kits from Dragon before they are released to the general public,

He started this thread to refute THAT point. Now, you are conflating that issue with the instruction issue. He has also never said, or implied, that there is nothing wrong with Dragon instructions. In fact, when this whole conversation about instructions started he agreed that they are often the weakest part of a Dragon kit.

But I'm curious, Manny. What would you have Tracy do about the instructions? How influential do you think he is at Dragon? He already said (in the Independence thread) that he has little first hand knowledge or experience with the 'instructions department' of Dragon, yet you seem to be singling him out as if he is somehow the root of the problem.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 8:46 PM

Just my 2 cents...

I haven't seen a set of Dragon kit instructions since 1998 or 1999 ( don't build ships or armor, and my purchases after re-entry into this hobby have been limited to Revellogram,, AMT, Eduard,  21st Century and a few Trumpeter; - no Dragon aircraft )

I did note a forum member needed quite a bit of help with the USS Independence  from one of the disputing parties and that exchange prompted this post.

It would be greatly appreciated if those involved in the dispute would post scans of their kit instructions so the rest of us can evaluate the questionable Chinese / English translation / instructions.

Danke !

  • Member since
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  • From: Hobart, Tasmania
Posted by Konigwolf13 on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 7:32 PM

My 2 cents

I've been building kits for the last 27 years, I've built Tamiya, Dragon, Academy, Tomy (OK their Zoids are closer to toys but but instructions are possibly the best), Kinetic, Trumpeter, Hobby Boss, Revell, RoG, AMT/ERTL, Matchbox, Frog, Italeri, Hobby Craft, Tasca, Zhengdefu, A few noname chinese, and more I cant remember, and without a doubt Dragon has by a long way the worst instructions I have used/seen and this is a consistant basis (No I dont have it in for dragon I have more of their kits on my workbench then any other currently). I occasionally may need to check a reference to confirm where or how a piece is attached, dragon its usually like 3-4 times per kit (and as for step 11 on their Initial Production Tiger Kit 6600 I guess I should go back to diecast cause 'as you say'  far as I can see part of that should not be there if you use the detailed fuel/radiatior bays from earlier on but there is no note of this...).

 

I'll say it simply, Tracy, you're a Dragon fanboy pure and simple.

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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 6:32 PM

Tracy White

 Manstein's revenge:
BUT he can't be objective when it comes to this issue...period.  He posted this thread after that fact and took another swipe at me.  And all of you know I'm not gonna skulk away from that...

Pray tell, how did I do that?

Traveling for the next 24 hours.. will answer more when I can.

You took a swipe by aiming this entire thread towards me in a an attempt to make it look like I'm making this whole "Dragon instructions generally suck" as something I just made up...just admit that you can't be objective about Dragon because of the obvious conflict of interest that exists and agree to disagree...OR we can keep going.  I'll be happy to provide more review quotes that call Dragon out on this issue.  But if you want to make it personal, I'm game for that as well...I can do this forever...keep 'em coming...travel safely. Wink

  • Member since
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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 5:30 PM

Manstein's revenge
BUT he can't be objective when it comes to this issue...period.  He posted this thread after that fact and took another swipe at me.  And all of you know I'm not gonna skulk away from that...

Pray tell, how did I do that?

Traveling for the next 24 hours.. will answer more when I can.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:17 PM

bbrowniii

 

 Sprue-ce Goose:

 

 

 oddmanrush:

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

 

 

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

 

 

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

Don't worry, I said I was lurking...but I wasn't lurking with a hatchet...

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:16 PM

bbrowniii
 Sprue-ce Goose:
 oddmanrush:
 bbrowniii:

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

No Jack Nicholson moments?

  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 3:08 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

 oddmanrush:

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

 

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

As long as it is not in my back... Whistling

Uhhh, or my front either, for that matter.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:40 PM

oddmanrush

 

 bbrowniii:

 

I'm sorry you were the target of the nonsense.

 

 

Likewise. Although I didn't have a dog in this fight, I was lurking through the threads in question and I thought you handled yourself in a civil manner, despite what was going on and being said. I think we've all seen people blow debates out of proportion over lesser matters, and others have left the forum all together. Hopefully by-gones can be just that and every one can move on.

Do you mean: "Bury the Hatchet" ?

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:40 PM

I thought they owned everything...?

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:28 PM

iraqiwildman

What I can't figure out is why these companies can not correct these problems?

Is Dragon ( founded in pre-PRC Hong Kong , I believe) now one of the state owned companies in China?

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:20 PM

Also, how do I become one of these "insiders" who get to test these new releases?

Tim Wilding

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 2:18 PM

What I can't figure out is why these companies can not correct these problems?

Tim Wilding

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