To the Editor.....and Clayton Ronso. Subj.: Tough Competition

That is definitely an interesting and well-made model, CBHusky!

I haven't been to a show yet, let alone entered anything in a competition, but I'll definitely keep what you said in mind.  Personally, I'm just glad if something turns out well enough for me not to be embarrassed to have my name on a tag next to it in the LHS.

CBHusky

A model should not win by how much aftermarket accessories a person bought and used, but by the skills and resourcefulness of the modeler.

Absolutely.

By my understanding of "OOB" competition category rules, with the exception of after-market decals, one can only use what's provided "in the box" when you buy the kit, plus cement, paint and filler. One cannot even add a flag or tarp made of a scrap of tissue paper if that tissue paper wsn't in the box when you bought it. You could, however, cut up and paint the instruction sheet if you could make something with it.

Judging (in OOB) is based on construction and painting standards. This (in theory) means that a kit like the old Tamiya Panzer IV Ausf.D and, say, Dragon's Pz. IV Ausf.D (the one with PE, turned barrel and 1000+ parts in the box) entered in "OOB" are judged to the same criteria. Now let's say that the veteran Tamiya kit is built to perfection, all seams filled, all sprue attachment  points and mould seams eradicated and the paint work is immaculately applied. On the other hand, the Dragon kit is "fully loaded" but there's evidence of glue spots, crooked parts or paint runs (or a combination). Logic dictates that the better built kit should rank higher, even though it's less complex. 

"Logic dictates that the better built kit should rank higher, even though it's less complex."

It all comes down to the judging eventually. A good and skilled judge will KNOW the older Tamiya kit was a harder challenge. Does that even rate is what is needed to be asked.

What I tend to use and believe in is creativity and imagination. If you can build something that nobody has ever seen or done before, plus use different paint schemes, decals, scratchbuilding methods, diorama scenes, etc., then I feel you'll have a fighting chance of competing at a contest.

If you've ever read any of my posts, you'll know that you have a kindred spirit in me regarding that philosophy, CB... I've typed (endlessly, to some) many a word about the art of Scratch-building, Imagineering, and Creative Gizmology and their place in this high-dollar, AM-Parts over-populated hobby... That "12.00 on Ebay" 1/32 Revell Mustang III is as likely to win gold as the 120.00 Tamiya Mustang if the Revell modeler's got his "poop in a group"...

That said, and I've judged at a LOT of shows (primarily dioramas) over the years, I'm a firm believer in the premise that after-market parts simply are a "lazy" way to super-detail a kit, and the best stuff comes from the imagination and skills of the builder, not the AM Parts rack... They're fine if one feels that they're necessary to have included in the kit, and that's what the builder enjoys doing (I have no earthly idea why one would spend even more money on what is already likely a ridiculously high-priced kit anyway), but when it gets to the point of replacing 50-75 % of the kit's interior "greeblies", you're likely suffering from AMS and it's probably terminal...

One of the judging criteria used is "Scope of Effort"... A scratch-built seat/harness assembly and throttle quadrant, along with some wound-wire oxygen hose and stretched sprue hydraulic line that cost the builder about 15 cents in materials is going to garner more points from me in effort than a 25.00 P/E version of the same (provided it's well-done)...  Also, the stuff doesn't need to be bolt-for-bolt accurate... Suggestion is a greater (and easier) asset than duplication...  Especially when it comes to items that would, for the most part, be unseen without the use of a right-angle fiber-optic flashlight (although, I HAVE one, lol)...

No amount of after-market parts will save your model from being passed-over for recognition from me faster than one loaded-out with a hundred dollars-worth of PE and resin parts, but with big ol' fingerprint on a windscreen, an unsanded mold-parting line on a tire, or, horror-of-horrors,  a diorama depicting a truck or aircraft on the grass, but NO tracks... (You'd best be explaining to me, somehow,  where the helicopter that dropped them in place is)

Many modelers (especially the younger ones, in the 18-29 group) have gotten so far into the AM world that their skill-sets have stagnated at the point that if it can't be bought and added, it can't be done... And part of the blame for this can be dropped on judges who're easily "blinded by the brass", since they themselves probably fell into the same trap early on in their "serious modeler" years...

I've even read the words,  "Contest-Quality Model", in here... That's a lot of bunk.. Practically EVERY model (there are few exceptions, but they ARE exceptions) is "contest-quality" if one learns the basics, practices them, expands their techniques and modeling-material "list", always pays attention to the details, AND the judges are experienced (both as modelers and judges), knowledgeable, and well-informed as to what the judging criteria is and (more importantly), ISN'T...

Nice ship, Husky, and congrats on the well-deserved awards!

I agree with the guy who said "In the end, it all comes down to the judges.". Honestly, some judges don't have the brains to judge a coloring contest.I've been to contests where the judging was simply inexplicably bad, and everyone knew it. You just can't tell what some judges will consider worthy or not. Some decisions are seemingly completely arbitrary. In fact, some judges that I've been in a group with proved that to me when I listened to their commentary.

In my experience, there seems to be a dichotomy of modelers who can detail, and then modelers who can finish. It's like the difference between a skilled machinist and a great auto finisher. Different sides of the brain dominate; it's very rare that you find both in a modeler. Those are the masters!

My own strength is painting, not really detailing so much. In fact, I don't usually go overboard with it. And I scratchbuild many parts but I don't worry so much about identical replication--again, like Hans said, suggestion is the key. I will occasionally dress up a model with PE and other resin parts just as a "project" because I enjoy the process.

I think that Clayton Ronso may have been expressing the frustration of seeing some models that he feels he can't compete with. This can be a problem with modeling shows. If you have an especially prolific crowd, or even just one or two individuals who regularly shine, it can kill contests when the word gets around that so-and-so "always wins". Ironically, this fact--one that nobody really talks about much--will cause the judges to award awards to inferior models sometimes just to "spread the wealth around".

So, in the end, like I said--it all comes down to the judges.

I'm not buying it.

Tons of aftermarket doesn't win at contests...basics do.

The first cut judges make at the contest table eliminates (or at least reduces the likelihood of a podium finish) models based on poorly applied decals (silvered or not sealed), bad paint (drifting from boot to pants, neck to collar, brush marks, excessive amounts or orange peel), unfilled seams, uncleaned mold and pin ejector marks, alignment, floating wheels, tracks with gaps, finger prints, glue marks, etc.

My club gave up on OOB awards several years ago. At least half of the plaques would go unawarded because there were no entries in the classes. Where there were entries, 1/2 to 2/3 of the plaques went to models that also placed first, second or third in the class. This number isconsistent in all the contests I attend where OOB is an adjunct to the main classes. When the judging team has winnowed out the three place awards, it is very common that one of those will be listed as OOB. That means it automatically gets OOB.

We had also offered a strictly OOB contest in conjunction with a local air museum. Over the dozen or so years we ran it, entries declined by half or more and,  except for rare exceptions, the guys who took awards here were teh same guys who placed in the unlimited categories...talent simply shows.

I just read the letter in question and it seems like the writer has two, mutually exclusive, complaints. First, he feels like the aftermarket 'rage' puts OOB builders at a disadvantage. Like Al, I'm not buying that argument. I've judged at plenty of shows and NEVER did my team have a conversation that went along the lines of, 'Well, this thing is awesome, but it was built OOB so it only gets honorable mention'.

However, in the second paragraph, the writer states "I have seem judges with laser levels, measuring tapes, and cutout balances to make surre every nook and cranny of a kit is level, scaled, and straight."

If that is the case (and while I've seen some pretty 'focused' judges, I've never seen any go to this extreme. Maybe at some of the big national shows?) then the writer isn't complaining about aftermarket at all. He is complaining about judges increased expectations regarding basic building skills. I'm don't think that is a problem at all.

Finally, the writer makes the points that many hobbyists must have been 'turned off' by their ability to compete. Well, my personal opinion is that this is supposed to be a HOBBY first, and a competition a very, VERY distant second.

I've been fortunate to win a fair share of awards at contests. I have not entered any in years.

I still do like to observe contest entries, but I build for the fun of it. I am too old to worry about all the aspects of the shows.

I do use aftermarket items occasionally,,, but I agree with the general consensus (here) that it is your talent that sets your builds apart.

First and foremost,,,,   Have Fun with the HOBBY.

The part that bothered me about the letter was the line "No longer can the casual hobbyist compete with the professional perfectionist'. I do not consider contest modeling a 'casual' past time. Contests by definition are intended to recognize achievement, and should be a place for rewarding the best of the best, not any old thrown together piece of junk. If contest modeling is your thing, you need to settle for out of the box categories, or step up your game. And this is coming from someone who himself is a very 'casual' modeler, with 0 interest in competitions. 

I'm beginning to wonder if he meant "Out of Box" in the first place, since there are no after-market parts allowed in OOB categories anyway.. I dug through my junk and found this set of rules for the OOB criteria:

1) Use any commercially available kit.
2) Finish is open to all methods, i.e. airbrush, spray can, hand painting or natural plastic.
3) CONSTRUCTION:YOU MAY-

a: fill seams and gaps.
b: sand off rivets.
c: drill guns and exhausts.
d: thin down trailing edges, flaps, fenders, hatch covers and doors, if desired.
e: hand paint instrument panels and consoles in lieu of decals.
f: rescribe panel lines, if desired.

YOU MAY NOT-

1: vacuform, manufacture or replace kit parts with ones not supplied in the kit.
2: cut or separate canopies, control surfaces, hatches or doors. No surgery
allowed!
3: add anything to cockpit or interior unless specified in instructions. Only kit
supplied seat belts and shoulder harness may be used.
4: apply rigging, masts or antennas to the model unless depicted in instructions or
box art.

 Instruction sheet must be displayed with the Out-of-Box entry.

Now some may use the above to point out that the high-end kits are better than the old ones are, for many of the above reasons, especially when it comes to things like cockpit and turret interiors... BUT!

The problem many have with entering say, a 1/48 Tamiya P-51D vs. a 1/48 Monogram P-51D is that the Tamiya kit has more parts with more details... Well, whenever you have more greeblies, it's just that many more opportunties for something to go wrong...  However, the Monogram kit, being simpler, has fewer chances of an item being overlooked, therefore it may win over that "contest quality" kit... 

More parts doesn't make it "more better"... Just "more expensive" and "more work"...

Brush-marks on the cockpit floor and seat of that Tamiya A6M5 Zeke just might knock it out of the running with that flawless Monogram A6M5 Zeke model over there that doesn't even HAVE a cockpit floor, much less a seat (or even an open canopy)....

ajlafleche

I'm not buying it.

Tons of aftermarket doesn't win at contests...basics do.

The first cut judges make at the contest table eliminates (or at least reduces the likelihood of a podium finish) models based on poorly applied decals (silvered or not sealed), bad paint (drifting from boot to pants, neck to collar, brush marks, excessive amounts or orange peel), unfilled seams, uncleaned mold and pin ejector marks, alignment, floating wheels, tracks with gaps, finger prints, glue marks, etc.

...talent simply shows.

 

You should have been at the contest I attended last year.  The planes with the paint on the "glass" part of the canopies, silvered decals, orange peel paint, unbelievable scratches on NMF planes and unfilled seams were the ones that WON!  Talent definitely shows but it doesn't necessarily win.

I'd also like to echo the Doog's sentiment.  I think Clayton wasn't so much stating a fact as he was expressing his frustration and belief that it's the pocketbook that wins contests more than ability.

Eric

Maybe the writer just doesn't "measure up", or thinks he can't "measure up", to what's on the table?????

 I know there are some who do believe that a kit with ALL the bells and whistles should be a shoe in over any OOB build or scratchwork sitting on the table. I witnessed an argument last year at a show. This guy was PISSED!!!! Practically yelling at one of the judges, because his Tamiya whatever it was had aftermarket EVERYTHING, and he didn't place, and the 1st place aircraft had no A/M. The judge quietly said, your work is kinda sloppy, whoever built this one here (winner), scratchbuilt the interior and scribed it AND did a damn good job. That was not my first win without any A/M, I've had enough to know that basic skills wins awards, not money!

Heh... You happen to have a pic of the winner, Fermis?

Maybe the writer just doesn't "measure up", or thinks he can't "measure up", to what's on the table?????

I've run across that a time or two... That can get discouraging for a new-comer, and it pizzes me off that some judges feel that it's a shoe-in when someone builds outta their wallets rather than their skills...

Some other judges were "ooh-ing and ahh-ing" a small German tank "dio" (can't remember what one, a Fuchs I think) and their focus was on the PE shoulder-marks and collar-tabs of the TC, and all the PE work that was done with fenders and stowage, tool-clips ,rather than the diorama and all its parts...  (Even made an air-recognition flag himself.. He shoulda sprung for a Hakenkreuze decal, insteada, rather poorly, hand-painting it.. Maybe he was broke after buying all that PE.. *shrug*)

BTW, while the figure was AWESOME, it didn't place at all with me (I was the sole judge for Dioramas..)... The modeler didn't do anything to the edges and sides of the base, just left it unfinished and unsanded.... Plus, the tank musta been parked for days, since there were no tracks, and I could see the gray celluclay in spots... There was absolutely NO story, either... Just a lone tank, some bushes, and me lookin' at it...

If he'd added a roadsign, a map for the TC, and maybe posed the TC OFF the tank, near a shot-up, crooked roadsign, looking at the map while pointing one way, while his driver pointed the other, he'd have had something there...

He shoulda have placed it in the Armor category instead of Dioramas...   

Anyway, my advice for the writer would be to enter only the "Out Of Box" category for a while... Then the pressure's off the wallet for AM parts and surgery, and basic skills will have to suffice... I know how he feels though.. I used to think, "Wow! He spent a lot of time building that model" but now it's mostly, "Wow... He spent a lot money  building that model..."...

Well, I was beat out of a gold by a box stock airliner last September.  And I have seen a lot of very nice virtually box stock winners in other categories.  Now, one has to start with a good kit, but there are some really fine kits available today that are potential winners.  No, you can't start with most Lindberg or Glencoe kits or something like that.

But start with a top notch kit and do your fundamentals (filling seems and pin marks) well and put a good finish on and you will be in contention.

Hans von Hammer

BTW, while the figure was AWESOME, it didn't place at all with me (I was the sole judge for Dioramas..)... The modeler didn't do anything to the edges and sides of the base, just left it unfinished and unsanded.... Plus, the tank musta been parked for days, since there were no tracks, and I could see the gray celluclay in spots... There was absolutely NO story, either... Just a lone tank, some bushes, and me lookin' at it...

I think when being critical of judge's bias, this illustrates the potential for a problem. The 'sole judge' issue. All the judging I have done (both at AMPS and IPMS shows) has been done by a team of judges (either three or fofur). I've found that this tends to minimize the impact of one individual's biases. So you might have that judge that is starry-eyed over the PE zippers on Fritz's pants, but judge number 2 actually notices that the weathering is inconsistent and the road wheels are floating.

Obviously, the writer of the letter didn't specify how judging was done at these shows he was critical of, but in my experience with team judging I don't see the issues that he believes exist. Judging may not be perfect (I've walked out of a show feeling hosed before), but I disagree that $$ = medals. When I judge a model, my basic mindset is, "based on the materials utilized, how good of a job did the modeler do?" I definately do not, nor do I think my other judges do, sit there and say, "Gee, all this plastic stuff would have been better off done in PE, so lets knock off a few points."

Well, I fall into the other half of the population.  I build for the pleasure of the hobby.  I enjoy the the banter and discussion about tips and suggestions to build better.   The usual quest for oneupmanship can be annoying but must be expected with a large group.    I do enjoy going to shows/contests, but have never felt the need to get into the thick of competition.  After listening to this thread's stories about folks getting their shorts all in a wad over skills, both modeling and judging, I think I'll stick to recreational building.  Don't misjudge me.  I'm a highly competitive person.  I would not do well with "judges" of different abilities and mindsets playing God with my work.  I'll stick with my wife telling me that "It's beautiful".  And of course sharing photographs with you folks.  That seems to be enough to make me happy.

Oh, by the way, I like to scratchbuild and use aftermarket parts (you'd be amazed at the great deals you can get on ebay and Squadron).  There is a skill for both.  To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy.  So we all build with different skills, different philosophies, different motivations, and different results.  But let's all build for the joy and satisfaction.  We are all at different places in the hobby.  When we are on these forums, we are all closer together.  That is a large part of the joy and satisfaction.

   I have been a modeler for years(airplanes and figures), but i only model for my own enjoyment.  I fill seams,paint details that won't be seen, and try to put a good finish on them.  I don't build for contests but i LOVE going to them.  The talent on display is terrific ,and I enjoy talking to other modelers.  The odds say they exist but I haven't met an unfriendly modeler to date.  Anyway,  last year I entered a stock figure that I had worked hard on and wanted to display.  I had no expectations so I was thrilled when it placed.  Better still, one of the judges took time out of his busy day to talk about my figure and give me some pointers to get better.  This forum is full of amazing modelers,but I do believe with hard work I can sometimes make a small dent at contests.  I will continue to go to contests to admire the work of others, and hope I'm  not considered lazy for doing so.

Wabashwheels

 To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

I agree with your entire post, but particularly with this statement. Different materials require different skills.

I think when being critical of judge's bias, this illustrates the potential for a problem. The 'sole judge' issue. All the judging I have done (both at AMPS and IPMS shows) has been done by a team of judges (either three or fofur). I've found that this tends to minimize the impact of one individual's biases.

While that's generally the case, many times I've been stuck alone as the sole diorama judge because noone else wants to do it, whether they feel un-qualified or just don't want to deal with it, since it takes longer per entrant and there's a LOT more to check...

To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

I don't have problems with photo-etch per se... I'm just not impressed by a model loaded with after-market photo-etch... If it came with the kit, fine, use it... I do, as well as using some from one kit in another kit...  But to go out and buy it to avoid the labor (and head-aches) of fabricating the detail parts yourself then assembling them is, IMHO anyway, a short-cut to building the super-details at the very least, if "lazy" is too strong a word...     

As I've pointed out before, "Scope of Effort" is one of the judging-criteria. To think that bending and gluing some brass requires the same talent and scope of effort as a builder fabricating the parts himself from say, styrene strip, rod, stretched sprue, and shaved-off nuts & bolts prior to adding them is, well, offensive to me, both as a scratch-builder and a judge...  I simply can't give points for "store-bought stuff" at the expense of well-built  "scratch-built stuff"... It wouldn't be ethical...

IF "Scope of Effort" is removed from the judging ctriteria, well... Then there's something to consider.. 

It's unfortunate that you had to judge a category alone, especially dioramas.  In my opinion, the head judge wasn't doing his/her job very well.  In all the contests I've attended and judged at over the past 30 years, we never had less that 3 judges per category.  If there is a lack of qualified judges, we delay doing a category until some other judges become available.

I don't think we've ever considered  "scope of difficulty" as any criteria in judging on model against others. It's certainly not in the IPMS judging lists.   I think it is more of doing the work to make a Lindberg  kit look great next to a Tamiya kit. Yes, difficult, but if all the effort to make it so happens, it would be based on the effort in doing the basic. It comes more down to the basics in everything.  As to how details were added, unless the entry form has a complete list of everything used or added to the kit, which most do not have, it is rarely considered, at least in my experiance.  I have been building kits long before there we any aftermarket details available, so I have some idea of the gizmology approach. I've done it myself often enough.  Sometimes the modeler pulls it off, sometimes he's over his head.  The same applies with the commercially available parts, they don't just drop in.  They need bending, cutting, folding, trimming, and painting, among other things.  Considering the modeler "lazy" has no place in judging.

I have found that long before we start judging a model for all the details, scratch built or otherwise, the model finds itself being judged on just how well the thing was built.

The philosophy of judging has been discussed until the proverbial cows came home and then laid down with the beaten horse.

Well, it's IPMS Denver meeting time, have to run. 

Carry on

Doug

Hans von Hammer

Heh... You happen to have a pic of the winner, Fermis?

 

 Yup!!!! .....and guess what company made it!!!

I fudged a bit, I used the rear parts of a Squadron vac-canopy. I nabbed the kit for $10 (w/ the ref. book), canopy for a couple bucks.

/forums/p/128955/1303369.aspx#1303369

I don't think we've ever considered  "scope of difficulty" as any criteria in judging on model against others.

It's "Scope of Effort", not "difficulty"... "Effort", as defined by me anyway, means that  a kit detailed with well-done scratch-built items takes more skill, imagination/engineering ("imagineering") and work than than it does to buy those parts ready-made and simply paint and install them, therefore scratch-built parts score higher than AM parts...

"Difficulty" is generally in a particular kit's construction (based on the number of parts usually) and doesn't matter to me, since a well-built and super-detailed 8.00 Snap-Tite kit has the same chance of winning as does the 40.00 Tamigawa kit in the same category...

IF the judges are doing their jobs correctly... 

It's unfortunate that you had to judge a category alone, especially dioramas. 

I was the only "dioramas-only" builder in the club, hence me getting the job...  A lot of times I was given some "judging help" though, there were always a couple guys that got done before I got really started, since (fairly and accurately) judging dioramas takes much longer... There's simply a lot more to judge per entrant... They could help me judge the individual model subjects on the dio, and then I'd be able to focus on the other details like compostion, layout, story, and base... The actual construction of the models themselves is only about 40% of the overall judge-work in Dioramas...

Ultimately though, it was my call...

Oops, was in a hurry when I wrote that and misquoted you.  Didn't have time to proof read.  That will teach me.  Doesn't change anything else.

bbrowniii

Wabashwheels:

 To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

 

I agree with your entire post, but particularly with this statement. Different materials require different skills.

I don't think I said anything about the application of photo-etch (If I did or it was construed to mean that, I apologize... As I said earlier and on many other occasions, I use it myself (provided it comes with the kit)  It's the reliance on it that's at the heart of the matter at hand... 

Many modelers, especially those younger ones who've come up with "nothing but the best" on their benches and who have never known the times when Monogram kits were the cream of the crop and "state of the art",  When the cost of the kit is already too high, having to buy extra parts which are even more expensive in order to compete can get really old, really fast... 

I read it all the time in the various forum hooches... Someone will ask about a certain kit and if it's any good, or "who makes the best" whatever,  and the replies, rather than musings and  tips about a kit's pluses or minuses, will invariably go into which sets of P/E to buy, and which resin cockpits you need, and the best decal sheets to be had in order to pimp it out to "the point of No Return"... 

It kind of overwelms me, and I can't tell what anyone is talking about by that time anyway, so nobody really learns anything, except that this kit is the most labor-free one, and this one will need everything there is to had in order to make even close to an approximation of an artist's concept-drawing (An accute case of AMS that became fatal, due to complications arising from "Gastonitis"...)

Anyway, that's the place I'm in right now... No one should be writing to folks that're asking about the "best" anything, because you're probably talking Greek to them anyway at this point.  Just tell them about the kits that you think they'd be happiest with, why that is so, and leave out the AM detail-talk, since they're likely beginners, and using P/E parts, along with everything else, is beyond the scope of their inquiry, and it's an advanced technique anyway...

Beginners will just be throwing their money away... "Well, dear...  They said that that kit's no good, unless I buy this cockpit set and that wheel-bay set, a vac-form canopy set and masks, and five tubes of putty... So I dropped 200.00 on the extra stuff, worked for a couple hours on it, then tossed the whole thing becasue nothing fit rght.. But I got this neat little Snap-Tite kit that's pretty good."

Makes for a pretty good "bench-fire" (the modeling equivilant of a fighter-pilot having what they call a "Helmet Fire", due to  too much information coming into the brain-housing group and resulting in sensory overload and controlled flight into terrain)...

Anyway, when it gets to the point that that one shelves a set of skills and begins relying mostly or even totally on another (jury's still out on PE being a "skill-set" in and of it's own, with me since, unless you actually do the photo-etching yourself, it really is just adding more parts to a kit) set, that while perhaps "Lazy" is too strong a word, "short-cutting" isn't...  It could also be construed as "cheating" in some instances...

One instance when that would be the case is actually trying to pass off "store-bought" PE parts as "self-made" PE parts in a kit entered into the "Scratch-buildt" category... And I've seen THAT one happen with a modeler (who shall remain nameless here, since he knows who he is, and he knows that I know too, and he's in here fairly frequently)... I spotted a part that looked exactly like one of the PE parts I used in another build-category (right down to the part-number stamped on it, lol)...

Scratch-built details and super-details have a certain... look about them...  I dunno... Guess my main beef is that the kits themselves have gotten more and more complicated, expensive, and contain SO much AM stuff that the "individuality" is gone... 

At the same time, it forces a change in techniques upon me that I don't care to make, and incurr expenses I didn't plan, don't need, and can ill-afford, but am forced to because I still want and like to compete, and those modelers that are really of only average or slightly above-average skills are nipping at the heels of those who've always been putting in the time and effort (just not the cash) to make the parts...  

I don't like getting into a contest with a guy that's got so much money invested in a kit that he's put his cats to sleep in order to not risk losing the model to a "Kitty Halucination" ( I only had time invested in that B-17 diorama, for instance... Wasn't so much as an after-market seat harness-buckle in it, all the detail parts were from around the house or another kit. )...  

At any rate, I get exactly what the writer was saying, and agree with him, overall...  Perhaps one day they will add a category called, "Modified OOB and Kitbash, No After-market Allowed"...  I think that'd be my category to enter, lol...

I have to disagree that there is no place for box stock. As many of you have said it really comes down to basics of model building. I have seen guys spend hundreds of dollars on the newest kits, PE, Resin and in the end you could see daylight through one side of the model and out the other or in some cases only a couple of the wheels touched the ground and in one case one wheel and one trailing arm of an arty piece. By the way this also points to a flaw in the IPMS system of judging because I have on numerous occasions had to give 1st place trophies to such models because it was the best one of the bunch and we HAD to pick a "winner"... but I digress.

Anyway, back to the point. It is wholly up to judges as to what has merit and what doesn't. We'd all like to assume that each clubs judging is on the up and up but that's another discussion. I believe someone also mentioned the fact that often the judges of a particular category are not at all familiar with the subject. This most often occurs because the most qualified judges for a particular category have models entered in said category which DQs them from judging it. So, you get Joe car guy to judge aircraft and Bill ship builder to judge armor.

So anyway, I do believe there is a place for OTB builds even outside the OTB category. At the last AMPS Atlanta regional contest I took a BONE STOCK Tamiya Pz II (save for a figure and a couple of stowage pieces). The kit took me about 12hrs to build and a week to paint. Not only did it take a Gold medal in the Advanced category it also won the 2011 theme award. I don't say this to brag, not at all.. just to make the point that an OTB kit, even a very simple one can stand out amongst all the resin and PE encrusted competitors.

Regards, Kenneth

I forgot to mention... The Tamiya Pz II I spoke about, won Gold at AMPS but did not place at the IPMS event I entered in Texas. I always tell people, DO NOT go to a contest EXPECTING to win anything. I have seen many a modeler get really beat down and disheartened because they fully expected to win something.

Yeah, I've seen many a disappointed modeler.

If I entered, I would have to go with that mindset of not expecting anything. And if I did, I can attribute it to a slow day at the office.

So..how many of you started modelling just to win an award?  And how many of you still model, JUST to win awards?  To me the contests should be more than just how well you do.  I've been to many, many contests, local and  National.  I really just enjoy looking at all the fine workmanship there.

Yes, every contest is different.  I've seen it many times where a model will win big at one show, and gets nothing at another.  Depends a more on the competition than the judges.  Usually.

I don't build to compete.  I may enter, but that's just to get some stuff of mine on the table.  It makes starting a conversation a bit easier.  Also I like to put some cash in the coffers of the club that put on the show.  I build because I have fun, and it relaxes me, mostly.

Speaking of fun, I just made reservations for Orlando,  I have a good excuse because of Disney World.  My wife wants to spend several days there and my adult Daughter will be coming as well.  Sigh, all that cash for Disney and less for models.  Well there is still the credit cards.  This will make 2013 seem like a cake walk.  Loveland  is only 45 minutes away.  By the way, Rocky Mtn National Park is only 1hr or so away from the convention.  I think less.  One of the best parks in the country.  You can be above tree line and in tundra in no time at all.  Might even be snow at 12,000 feet.  Otherwise, the temp today, Aug 11,is in the 80's and no humidity.

Doug

Hans von Hammer

bbrowniii:

Wabashwheels:

 To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

 

I agree with your entire post, but particularly with this statement. Different materials require different skills.

 

I don't think I said anything about the application of photo-etch (If I did or it was construed to mean that, I apologize... As I said earlier and on many other occasions, I use it myself (provided it comes with the kit)  It's the reliance on it that's at the heart of the matter at hand... 

Many modelers, especially those younger ones who've come up with "nothing but the best" on their benches and who have never known the times when Monogram kits were the cream of the crop and "state of the art",  When the cost of the kit is already too high, having to buy extra parts which are even more expensive in order to compete can get really old, really fast... 

Ah... now I'm trackin' with ya Hans. Sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.