To the Editor.....and Clayton Ronso. Subj.: Tough Competition

With all the photoetch and other aftermarket accessories out there, I really have to wonder: Who's really building these models? The modeler, or the people who designed, packaged, etc. the aftermarket parts?

For example, If a person enters a Yamato battleship for competition loaded with lots of photoetch and other accessories, then maybe it should be TAMIYA and/or the accessory manufacturers who should win the awards and such. Seems like all these accessory manufacturers are "taking away" the enjoyment of building a model if they're doing a lot of the work for us by making wood decks, brass barrels, etc. How are modelers supposed to learn and gain modeling skills/experience if all these aftermarket manufacturers are building stuff for us?

I read the comments with great interest. I used to attempt to build for contests until I realized that my hobby was becoming a job. The pressure of finishing it on time burned me out for a long time. As for the view that newer and more costly is better, I've seen that attitude shown more times than I care to think about. I've met people a times who looked at cheaper kits as crap. Those are the ones who turn many would be modelers off to our hobby. We never have any shows around here any more and it was always fun to go see what others were building as well as touching bases with old friends from my former days as a club member. 

I've met people a times who looked at cheaper kits as crap. Those are the ones who turn many would be modelers off to our hobby.

They're known as "Kit-Pickers", lol..  Most are Rivet-Counters aflicted with Gastonitis and suffering from chronic AMS.... I've heard, "Oh, that's the Lindberg Ju-87.. Shape's ALL wrong...", or "He used a Monogram P-51??  Whatta POS that is. It has the wrong-shape on the canopy even!"  Didn't matter to them that it was flawlessly-built and painted... 

I've never built anything specifically for a competition, but I've taken what I considered good enough to compete and entered.. I won a few awards here & there over the years, but never "on purpose"...  As you pointed out, it becomes a job with a deadline and that ain't how I do things (except for an occasional commission-build, which IS a job)... 

I've only competed in "Dioramas" though, and that's the only category I've judged in...  (No, I don't enter one when I'm judging.)

.

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

TarnShip

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

Hans von Hammer

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

 

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

 

 

 

Hans von Hammer

Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

I suspect I know how this story turns out....

The thing is Hans, there is a 'gotcha' in your scenario up there. It is the line 'Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part'.  If that is REALLY the case, then the noses are not the issue. The result of the competition would HAVE to be decided by something that there was a difference between.

That is the crux of aftermarket stuff - more often than not, a resin or photoetch part is going to have finer detail than either a plastic or scratchbuilt part. Sure, I can scratch a tool clasp in 1/35 scale and make it look passable. However, if I'm truly motivated, I can build a WORKING tool clamp out of photoetch (well, I can't, but some of you can ). That is where there is a major difference. But to suggest that there is no challenge or skill required in applying aftermarket stuff is wrong. Heck, since I started using photoetch (both in the kit and aftermarket) I've been 'forced' to become a better solderer since the tolerances demanded by etch are so small that they won't go together any other way. You still have to put the stuff on the model. A lot of times, you have to put the stuff together before you can put it on the model. It ain't cookie cutter....

TarnShip

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

Rex, I don't see anything there to get you banned - you'll have to try harder next time! About the only thing I don't agree with (I bolded) is "those guys" getting picked on. I love seeing the work "those guys" produce, both as magazine submissions, and in this and other forums. I think that the ones with targets on their backs kind of have it coming to them, the ones that dismiss lesser work than their own, because "the rivets are all wrong", etc.

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

p38jl

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

I thought you grew that from a scrap of resin & drop of Hans' blood!?

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

Manstein's revenge

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

VanceCrozier

p38jl:

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

 

I thought you grew that from a scrap of resin & drop of Hans' blood!?

p38jl

 

Manstein's revenge:

 

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

 

  I searched.. everywhere.. but no luck...

 

I may have purchased the last two of them at Sprue Bros, for my "Magnum PI meets Starsky & Hutch" diorama. Man, that one took a lot of napkins...

Hans von Hammer

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

 

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

 

 

 

I know this wasn't necessarily to me, but I'm gonna throw out my two pennies........as a judge (at several locals and most recently at this year's Region 1) at a contest and for my own work, the scratched work gets the nod from me. I would hope that the builder takes the time to note his or her process and materials on the entry form, cuz I do read them (and I'd sure hope they're using the honor system).

That said, Boyd makes a couple points I agree with. First, there is a certain look to scratched stuff as opposed to AM, and I've yet to come across a model where I couldn't tell the difference (I have corrected vision, but without my glasses I can see dust particles quite well.....it helps when I do jeweler's work in 1/72 ). I'm sure there is work out there where I might not be able to tell the difference, but 2nd point is that I don't consider photoetch and resin additions "shake & bake." You have to fold, bend, sand, and otherwise work with the buggers to get the parts to look like they are an integral part of the model, as opposed to simply stuck to another part. But again, the scratched work gets the nod from me every time. 

Vance, yes,,,,,I think I described the wrong group of "those guys",,,,,there are two groups,,,the ones that only want to help,,,,and somehow end up defending their choices when they plainly did give sound advice

and the other group,,,,the ones that nit pick some guy's finished model

I nit pick a kit, not the finished model,,,,and surely not the builder

I am a different kind,,,,I use aftermarket, no apologies for that,,,,there is a good sound reason for it, too

in Hans' example,,,,,as just a viewer,,,,I'd be caught standing and looking at the model, if I see the builder, I'd compliment him,,,,,,,only then, and only if he told me, would I know if it was scratch built details or aftermarket,,,,,,,,or, the third option that people forget,,,,if it was aftermarket that was corrected before being installed and painted (resin isn't automatically correct, either,,,,,,,a certain HIAC Phantom nose comes to mind)

the kind of "those guys" you are talking about,,,,,,,,,would try to tell Hans that the date was wrong on the book hanging from the Nordon, lol

anyone can build an early Crusader from the late Crusader kits that every company produces, with enough time and effort,,,,,,,I *choose* to save the time involved, and use the Muroc nose kits,,,,,it saves me "opportunity cost" in the long run,,,,,,I would have to be able to make the changes in an hour and a half of building time,,,any longer than that, and the nose set is cheaper to me

that's really all resin does for me,,,,save building time,,,,,if i have to do it "Hans' way", I do,,,,,,,there isn't even resin for everything on my "want to have in my display" list

all of this said,,,,,I'd stand and look at Hans' work on a table somewhere, all day long,,,,,even better if I can tell him in person how much I like it that day

Rex

I have read that article too . I do believe he,s is half right .I will NOT compete in contests anymore for many reasons but here,s my gripe .(I will still display on the display only table though ) . The last contest I was in I entered six ship items from 1/700 scale (which I really don,t like ) 1/350 , and 1/400 . Well there were two models with the whole hobby shop worth of P.E., decals, and figures .One was 1/72 and the other was I believe 1/144 .  Well , the little scale items (there was twenty entries) didn,t even place in any category in ships ! Now ,I gripe because my quiting actually had nothing to do with the scenario I just mentioned .I asked a judge why the little guys didn,t even place and his reply started an argument between him and myself over the colors on my 1/350 ship ! He said they were dead wrong ! How could he possibly know ? I lived and served on the real ship for three years and painted the model according to the hundreds of photos I had , IN FULL COLOR ! They were there as technical referrences ! He called for and got a disqualification in model cars against me because I DARED to argue with him ! I will not and I mean this ever go to those areas and enter a contest there ever again .The Judge had to ask another person what a bilge keel was ! So that means he didn,t even know what he was looking at ! We at the ALAMO SQUADRON/IPMS show know judges are pulled from the modelers there and they just cannot judge the categories they have models in .We all know each others skills and our judges will ask questions of the contestants if there,s a doubt of any kind ,BEFORE they decide the winner and such in the classes entered . I will not use P.E. and all that to get attention . I do scratchbuild a lot of stuff and prefer to do that .I find it to be more fun that way .This year I am going to take two scratch - built ships .One an H.O. tanker and the other a blended scale oceanographic research vessel with minisub and rov,s on board with the containers too ! I say blended scale because I had to fudge a lot to get what I wanted . I have seen modelers leave rather than go up against many someones who used the P.E. to the nth degree . In some cases I agree , but it should not be the norm !   tankerbuilder