To the Editor.....and Clayton Ronso. Subj.: Tough Competition

I have read that article too . I do believe he,s is half right .I will NOT compete in contests anymore for many reasons but here,s my gripe .(I will still display on the display only table though ) . The last contest I was in I entered six ship items from 1/700 scale (which I really don,t like ) 1/350 , and 1/400 . Well there were two models with the whole hobby shop worth of P.E., decals, and figures .One was 1/72 and the other was I believe 1/144 .  Well , the little scale items (there was twenty entries) didn,t even place in any category in ships ! Now ,I gripe because my quiting actually had nothing to do with the scenario I just mentioned .I asked a judge why the little guys didn,t even place and his reply started an argument between him and myself over the colors on my 1/350 ship ! He said they were dead wrong ! How could he possibly know ? I lived and served on the real ship for three years and painted the model according to the hundreds of photos I had , IN FULL COLOR ! They were there as technical referrences ! He called for and got a disqualification in model cars against me because I DARED to argue with him ! I will not and I mean this ever go to those areas and enter a contest there ever again .The Judge had to ask another person what a bilge keel was ! So that means he didn,t even know what he was looking at ! We at the ALAMO SQUADRON/IPMS show know judges are pulled from the modelers there and they just cannot judge the categories they have models in .We all know each others skills and our judges will ask questions of the contestants if there,s a doubt of any kind ,BEFORE they decide the winner and such in the classes entered . I will not use P.E. and all that to get attention . I do scratchbuild a lot of stuff and prefer to do that .I find it to be more fun that way .This year I am going to take two scratch - built ships .One an H.O. tanker and the other a blended scale oceanographic research vessel with minisub and rov,s on board with the containers too ! I say blended scale because I had to fudge a lot to get what I wanted . I have seen modelers leave rather than go up against many someones who used the P.E. to the nth degree . In some cases I agree , but it should not be the norm !   tankerbuilder

Vance, yes,,,,,I think I described the wrong group of "those guys",,,,,there are two groups,,,the ones that only want to help,,,,and somehow end up defending their choices when they plainly did give sound advice

and the other group,,,,the ones that nit pick some guy's finished model

I nit pick a kit, not the finished model,,,,and surely not the builder

I am a different kind,,,,I use aftermarket, no apologies for that,,,,there is a good sound reason for it, too

in Hans' example,,,,,as just a viewer,,,,I'd be caught standing and looking at the model, if I see the builder, I'd compliment him,,,,,,,only then, and only if he told me, would I know if it was scratch built details or aftermarket,,,,,,,,or, the third option that people forget,,,,if it was aftermarket that was corrected before being installed and painted (resin isn't automatically correct, either,,,,,,,a certain HIAC Phantom nose comes to mind)

the kind of "those guys" you are talking about,,,,,,,,,would try to tell Hans that the date was wrong on the book hanging from the Nordon, lol

anyone can build an early Crusader from the late Crusader kits that every company produces, with enough time and effort,,,,,,,I *choose* to save the time involved, and use the Muroc nose kits,,,,,it saves me "opportunity cost" in the long run,,,,,,I would have to be able to make the changes in an hour and a half of building time,,,any longer than that, and the nose set is cheaper to me

that's really all resin does for me,,,,save building time,,,,,if i have to do it "Hans' way", I do,,,,,,,there isn't even resin for everything on my "want to have in my display" list

all of this said,,,,,I'd stand and look at Hans' work on a table somewhere, all day long,,,,,even better if I can tell him in person how much I like it that day

Rex

Hans von Hammer

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

 

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

 

 

 

I know this wasn't necessarily to me, but I'm gonna throw out my two pennies........as a judge (at several locals and most recently at this year's Region 1) at a contest and for my own work, the scratched work gets the nod from me. I would hope that the builder takes the time to note his or her process and materials on the entry form, cuz I do read them (and I'd sure hope they're using the honor system).

That said, Boyd makes a couple points I agree with. First, there is a certain look to scratched stuff as opposed to AM, and I've yet to come across a model where I couldn't tell the difference (I have corrected vision, but without my glasses I can see dust particles quite well.....it helps when I do jeweler's work in 1/72 ). I'm sure there is work out there where I might not be able to tell the difference, but 2nd point is that I don't consider photoetch and resin additions "shake & bake." You have to fold, bend, sand, and otherwise work with the buggers to get the parts to look like they are an integral part of the model, as opposed to simply stuck to another part. But again, the scratched work gets the nod from me every time. 

p38jl

 

Manstein's revenge:

 

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

 

  I searched.. everywhere.. but no luck...

 

I may have purchased the last two of them at Sprue Bros, for my "Magnum PI meets Starsky & Hutch" diorama. Man, that one took a lot of napkins...

VanceCrozier

p38jl:

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

 

I thought you grew that from a scrap of resin & drop of Hans' blood!?

Manstein's revenge

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

I think an AM PE moustache woulda looked better...

p38jl

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

I thought you grew that from a scrap of resin & drop of Hans' blood!?

my 2cents..

I've won a few awards.. 1sts..2nd..3rds..and with all they had differant things.. some had lots of AM and Resin..etc.. some didnt'' some none.. It all depends on your work.. what you do. how u do it.. Now judging can play a role, but overall it.. its you the modeler who makes the differance..

and If you want to see some scratchbuilding... check out Hans' avatar pic... the helmet shield was smash heat formed.. and the Hunnicut "stach" was scrath built.. then hand painted.. and Viola.. The Don Hammerloni... in 1/48th..

TarnShip

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

Rex, I don't see anything there to get you banned - you'll have to try harder next time! About the only thing I don't agree with (I bolded) is "those guys" getting picked on. I love seeing the work "those guys" produce, both as magazine submissions, and in this and other forums. I think that the ones with targets on their backs kind of have it coming to them, the ones that dismiss lesser work than their own, because "the rivets are all wrong", etc.

Hans von Hammer

Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

I suspect I know how this story turns out....

The thing is Hans, there is a 'gotcha' in your scenario up there. It is the line 'Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part'.  If that is REALLY the case, then the noses are not the issue. The result of the competition would HAVE to be decided by something that there was a difference between.

That is the crux of aftermarket stuff - more often than not, a resin or photoetch part is going to have finer detail than either a plastic or scratchbuilt part. Sure, I can scratch a tool clasp in 1/35 scale and make it look passable. However, if I'm truly motivated, I can build a WORKING tool clamp out of photoetch (well, I can't, but some of you can ). That is where there is a major difference. But to suggest that there is no challenge or skill required in applying aftermarket stuff is wrong. Heck, since I started using photoetch (both in the kit and aftermarket) I've been 'forced' to become a better solderer since the tolerances demanded by etch are so small that they won't go together any other way. You still have to put the stuff on the model. A lot of times, you have to put the stuff together before you can put it on the model. It ain't cookie cutter....

Hans von Hammer

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

 

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

 

 

 

You're judging "1/48th Twin Engined Aircraft - Bombers - Allied"

Me and another guy have entered with the 1/48th Monogram B-25J.  You've got all the others sewn up... Down to these two for "First Place"

Ok, so this guy put a "more accurate" resin nose (that has all the internal details, cables, wires, and instruments molded-on) on a B-25J and I put on the kit nose with the internal ribbing installed, and with it's dimensions and placement correct,  from strip styrene...  Solder-formed wires and cables all there, instruments and bomb-panel are there, all scratch-built... Norden is super-detailed with some greeblies, including a little photo-copied "Bomb Data Booklet " hanging off the Norden...Okay?  Can't tell the scratch-detailed part from the AM resin part...

All other things were equal, both models are flawless in construction and finish... It all hangs on the nose...

Who do you give the award to?

I'll tell ya what actually happened later...

TarnShip

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

wow

there are a couple of things here in the last 10 posts or so, that have me scratching my head

first off,,,Tamiya doesn't come over to the house and add the aftermarket railings to my ship models,,,,,it they did, then they and Loren could split the trophy,,,,,Loren's a great guy, but, he doesn't bend and glue his etch on for me, either

I haven't seen any pros come around and put the cockpits into my jets, either,,,,,if they ever did,,,,,they'd change the tubs so that they actually fit without sanding them to paper thin, and sanding the inside of the model to paper thin, also

new kits vs old?,,,,,that one is also easy,,,,,,just 1/72 Skyhawks, for an example,,,,,,,I have built many of the Hasegawa kits,,,,and many more of the Fujimi kits,,,,,it's safe to say that I actually think I have paid the dues and earned the right to say that the one that is over 1/4 inch too long is crap, and that the other is a "better kit"

it should be perfectly all right to say that the Fujimi and Hasegawa Phantoms are better than the old Revell, Matchbox  and earliest Hasegawa moldings of the kits,,,,,,mostly because it's the truth

some people seem to have forgotten that this site is the online presence of the easiest to buy review magazine, supported by ads for new kits,,,,and the "hated" aftermarket companies

and the most often asked question online is "what is the best model of the __________",,,,,,it's very hard to try and answer that question, without judging the model kits of that subject, in that scale

I fully agree that for a competition based on assembly techniques, any kit is fair game to build and enter,,,,,but, there is a whole large group of modelers out there that have the goal of most accurate miniature of any given subject, with the most accurate markings and paint colors they can find,,,,it is sort of implied in the titles of Fine, Super, Hyper, etc, Scale modeling

lots of shots get taken at those guys, these days,,,,,it's a current fad,,,,,,,but, "those kind" of modelers have been providing the models for magazines, and now the web,,,,for about 50 years

trouble is,,,,,they are gradually just "shutting up", one by one, over the years, costing the rest of us a valuable resource in the process

probably said enough to get banned by now

so, talk later, if I still can

Rex

I've met people a times who looked at cheaper kits as crap. Those are the ones who turn many would be modelers off to our hobby.

They're known as "Kit-Pickers", lol..  Most are Rivet-Counters aflicted with Gastonitis and suffering from chronic AMS.... I've heard, "Oh, that's the Lindberg Ju-87.. Shape's ALL wrong...", or "He used a Monogram P-51??  Whatta POS that is. It has the wrong-shape on the canopy even!"  Didn't matter to them that it was flawlessly-built and painted... 

I've never built anything specifically for a competition, but I've taken what I considered good enough to compete and entered.. I won a few awards here & there over the years, but never "on purpose"...  As you pointed out, it becomes a job with a deadline and that ain't how I do things (except for an occasional commission-build, which IS a job)... 

I've only competed in "Dioramas" though, and that's the only category I've judged in...  (No, I don't enter one when I'm judging.)

.

I read the comments with great interest. I used to attempt to build for contests until I realized that my hobby was becoming a job. The pressure of finishing it on time burned me out for a long time. As for the view that newer and more costly is better, I've seen that attitude shown more times than I care to think about. I've met people a times who looked at cheaper kits as crap. Those are the ones who turn many would be modelers off to our hobby. We never have any shows around here any more and it was always fun to go see what others were building as well as touching bases with old friends from my former days as a club member. 

With all the photoetch and other aftermarket accessories out there, I really have to wonder: Who's really building these models? The modeler, or the people who designed, packaged, etc. the aftermarket parts?

For example, If a person enters a Yamato battleship for competition loaded with lots of photoetch and other accessories, then maybe it should be TAMIYA and/or the accessory manufacturers who should win the awards and such. Seems like all these accessory manufacturers are "taking away" the enjoyment of building a model if they're doing a lot of the work for us by making wood decks, brass barrels, etc. How are modelers supposed to learn and gain modeling skills/experience if all these aftermarket manufacturers are building stuff for us?

Hans von Hammer

bbrowniii:

Wabashwheels:

 To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

 

I agree with your entire post, but particularly with this statement. Different materials require different skills.

 

I don't think I said anything about the application of photo-etch (If I did or it was construed to mean that, I apologize... As I said earlier and on many other occasions, I use it myself (provided it comes with the kit)  It's the reliance on it that's at the heart of the matter at hand... 

Many modelers, especially those younger ones who've come up with "nothing but the best" on their benches and who have never known the times when Monogram kits were the cream of the crop and "state of the art",  When the cost of the kit is already too high, having to buy extra parts which are even more expensive in order to compete can get really old, really fast... 

Ah... now I'm trackin' with ya Hans. Sorry if I misinterpreted your comments.

So..how many of you started modelling just to win an award?  And how many of you still model, JUST to win awards?  To me the contests should be more than just how well you do.  I've been to many, many contests, local and  National.  I really just enjoy looking at all the fine workmanship there.

Yes, every contest is different.  I've seen it many times where a model will win big at one show, and gets nothing at another.  Depends a more on the competition than the judges.  Usually.

I don't build to compete.  I may enter, but that's just to get some stuff of mine on the table.  It makes starting a conversation a bit easier.  Also I like to put some cash in the coffers of the club that put on the show.  I build because I have fun, and it relaxes me, mostly.

Speaking of fun, I just made reservations for Orlando,  I have a good excuse because of Disney World.  My wife wants to spend several days there and my adult Daughter will be coming as well.  Sigh, all that cash for Disney and less for models.  Well there is still the credit cards.  This will make 2013 seem like a cake walk.  Loveland  is only 45 minutes away.  By the way, Rocky Mtn National Park is only 1hr or so away from the convention.  I think less.  One of the best parks in the country.  You can be above tree line and in tundra in no time at all.  Might even be snow at 12,000 feet.  Otherwise, the temp today, Aug 11,is in the 80's and no humidity.

Doug

Yeah, I've seen many a disappointed modeler.

If I entered, I would have to go with that mindset of not expecting anything. And if I did, I can attribute it to a slow day at the office.

I forgot to mention... The Tamiya Pz II I spoke about, won Gold at AMPS but did not place at the IPMS event I entered in Texas. I always tell people, DO NOT go to a contest EXPECTING to win anything. I have seen many a modeler get really beat down and disheartened because they fully expected to win something.

I have to disagree that there is no place for box stock. As many of you have said it really comes down to basics of model building. I have seen guys spend hundreds of dollars on the newest kits, PE, Resin and in the end you could see daylight through one side of the model and out the other or in some cases only a couple of the wheels touched the ground and in one case one wheel and one trailing arm of an arty piece. By the way this also points to a flaw in the IPMS system of judging because I have on numerous occasions had to give 1st place trophies to such models because it was the best one of the bunch and we HAD to pick a "winner"... but I digress.

Anyway, back to the point. It is wholly up to judges as to what has merit and what doesn't. We'd all like to assume that each clubs judging is on the up and up but that's another discussion. I believe someone also mentioned the fact that often the judges of a particular category are not at all familiar with the subject. This most often occurs because the most qualified judges for a particular category have models entered in said category which DQs them from judging it. So, you get Joe car guy to judge aircraft and Bill ship builder to judge armor.

So anyway, I do believe there is a place for OTB builds even outside the OTB category. At the last AMPS Atlanta regional contest I took a BONE STOCK Tamiya Pz II (save for a figure and a couple of stowage pieces). The kit took me about 12hrs to build and a week to paint. Not only did it take a Gold medal in the Advanced category it also won the 2011 theme award. I don't say this to brag, not at all.. just to make the point that an OTB kit, even a very simple one can stand out amongst all the resin and PE encrusted competitors.

Regards, Kenneth

bbrowniii

Wabashwheels:

 To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

 

I agree with your entire post, but particularly with this statement. Different materials require different skills.

I don't think I said anything about the application of photo-etch (If I did or it was construed to mean that, I apologize... As I said earlier and on many other occasions, I use it myself (provided it comes with the kit)  It's the reliance on it that's at the heart of the matter at hand... 

Many modelers, especially those younger ones who've come up with "nothing but the best" on their benches and who have never known the times when Monogram kits were the cream of the crop and "state of the art",  When the cost of the kit is already too high, having to buy extra parts which are even more expensive in order to compete can get really old, really fast... 

I read it all the time in the various forum hooches... Someone will ask about a certain kit and if it's any good, or "who makes the best" whatever,  and the replies, rather than musings and  tips about a kit's pluses or minuses, will invariably go into which sets of P/E to buy, and which resin cockpits you need, and the best decal sheets to be had in order to pimp it out to "the point of No Return"... 

It kind of overwelms me, and I can't tell what anyone is talking about by that time anyway, so nobody really learns anything, except that this kit is the most labor-free one, and this one will need everything there is to had in order to make even close to an approximation of an artist's concept-drawing (An accute case of AMS that became fatal, due to complications arising from "Gastonitis"...)

Anyway, that's the place I'm in right now... No one should be writing to folks that're asking about the "best" anything, because you're probably talking Greek to them anyway at this point.  Just tell them about the kits that you think they'd be happiest with, why that is so, and leave out the AM detail-talk, since they're likely beginners, and using P/E parts, along with everything else, is beyond the scope of their inquiry, and it's an advanced technique anyway...

Beginners will just be throwing their money away... "Well, dear...  They said that that kit's no good, unless I buy this cockpit set and that wheel-bay set, a vac-form canopy set and masks, and five tubes of putty... So I dropped 200.00 on the extra stuff, worked for a couple hours on it, then tossed the whole thing becasue nothing fit rght.. But I got this neat little Snap-Tite kit that's pretty good."

Makes for a pretty good "bench-fire" (the modeling equivilant of a fighter-pilot having what they call a "Helmet Fire", due to  too much information coming into the brain-housing group and resulting in sensory overload and controlled flight into terrain)...

Anyway, when it gets to the point that that one shelves a set of skills and begins relying mostly or even totally on another (jury's still out on PE being a "skill-set" in and of it's own, with me since, unless you actually do the photo-etching yourself, it really is just adding more parts to a kit) set, that while perhaps "Lazy" is too strong a word, "short-cutting" isn't...  It could also be construed as "cheating" in some instances...

One instance when that would be the case is actually trying to pass off "store-bought" PE parts as "self-made" PE parts in a kit entered into the "Scratch-buildt" category... And I've seen THAT one happen with a modeler (who shall remain nameless here, since he knows who he is, and he knows that I know too, and he's in here fairly frequently)... I spotted a part that looked exactly like one of the PE parts I used in another build-category (right down to the part-number stamped on it, lol)...

Scratch-built details and super-details have a certain... look about them...  I dunno... Guess my main beef is that the kits themselves have gotten more and more complicated, expensive, and contain SO much AM stuff that the "individuality" is gone... 

At the same time, it forces a change in techniques upon me that I don't care to make, and incurr expenses I didn't plan, don't need, and can ill-afford, but am forced to because I still want and like to compete, and those modelers that are really of only average or slightly above-average skills are nipping at the heels of those who've always been putting in the time and effort (just not the cash) to make the parts...  

I don't like getting into a contest with a guy that's got so much money invested in a kit that he's put his cats to sleep in order to not risk losing the model to a "Kitty Halucination" ( I only had time invested in that B-17 diorama, for instance... Wasn't so much as an after-market seat harness-buckle in it, all the detail parts were from around the house or another kit. )...  

At any rate, I get exactly what the writer was saying, and agree with him, overall...  Perhaps one day they will add a category called, "Modified OOB and Kitbash, No After-market Allowed"...  I think that'd be my category to enter, lol...

Oops, was in a hurry when I wrote that and misquoted you.  Didn't have time to proof read.  That will teach me.  Doesn't change anything else.

I don't think we've ever considered  "scope of difficulty" as any criteria in judging on model against others.

It's "Scope of Effort", not "difficulty"... "Effort", as defined by me anyway, means that  a kit detailed with well-done scratch-built items takes more skill, imagination/engineering ("imagineering") and work than than it does to buy those parts ready-made and simply paint and install them, therefore scratch-built parts score higher than AM parts...

"Difficulty" is generally in a particular kit's construction (based on the number of parts usually) and doesn't matter to me, since a well-built and super-detailed 8.00 Snap-Tite kit has the same chance of winning as does the 40.00 Tamigawa kit in the same category...

IF the judges are doing their jobs correctly... 

It's unfortunate that you had to judge a category alone, especially dioramas. 

I was the only "dioramas-only" builder in the club, hence me getting the job...  A lot of times I was given some "judging help" though, there were always a couple guys that got done before I got really started, since (fairly and accurately) judging dioramas takes much longer... There's simply a lot more to judge per entrant... They could help me judge the individual model subjects on the dio, and then I'd be able to focus on the other details like compostion, layout, story, and base... The actual construction of the models themselves is only about 40% of the overall judge-work in Dioramas...

Ultimately though, it was my call...

Hans von Hammer

Heh... You happen to have a pic of the winner, Fermis?

 

 Yup!!!! .....and guess what company made it!!!

I fudged a bit, I used the rear parts of a Squadron vac-canopy. I nabbed the kit for $10 (w/ the ref. book), canopy for a couple bucks.

/forums/p/128955/1303369.aspx#1303369

It's unfortunate that you had to judge a category alone, especially dioramas.  In my opinion, the head judge wasn't doing his/her job very well.  In all the contests I've attended and judged at over the past 30 years, we never had less that 3 judges per category.  If there is a lack of qualified judges, we delay doing a category until some other judges become available.

I don't think we've ever considered  "scope of difficulty" as any criteria in judging on model against others. It's certainly not in the IPMS judging lists.   I think it is more of doing the work to make a Lindberg  kit look great next to a Tamiya kit. Yes, difficult, but if all the effort to make it so happens, it would be based on the effort in doing the basic. It comes more down to the basics in everything.  As to how details were added, unless the entry form has a complete list of everything used or added to the kit, which most do not have, it is rarely considered, at least in my experiance.  I have been building kits long before there we any aftermarket details available, so I have some idea of the gizmology approach. I've done it myself often enough.  Sometimes the modeler pulls it off, sometimes he's over his head.  The same applies with the commercially available parts, they don't just drop in.  They need bending, cutting, folding, trimming, and painting, among other things.  Considering the modeler "lazy" has no place in judging.

I have found that long before we start judging a model for all the details, scratch built or otherwise, the model finds itself being judged on just how well the thing was built.

The philosophy of judging has been discussed until the proverbial cows came home and then laid down with the beaten horse.

Well, it's IPMS Denver meeting time, have to run. 

Carry on

Doug

I think when being critical of judge's bias, this illustrates the potential for a problem. The 'sole judge' issue. All the judging I have done (both at AMPS and IPMS shows) has been done by a team of judges (either three or fofur). I've found that this tends to minimize the impact of one individual's biases.

While that's generally the case, many times I've been stuck alone as the sole diorama judge because noone else wants to do it, whether they feel un-qualified or just don't want to deal with it, since it takes longer per entrant and there's a LOT more to check...

To call application of photoetch parts "lazy" is an ignorance of photoetch.  I just built a throttle quadrant in 3D from a flat piece of metal.  After all the bending, fitting and placing those tiny handles, I take offense to someone calling that lazy. 

I don't have problems with photo-etch per se... I'm just not impressed by a model loaded with after-market photo-etch... If it came with the kit, fine, use it... I do, as well as using some from one kit in another kit...  But to go out and buy it to avoid the labor (and head-aches) of fabricating the detail parts yourself then assembling them is, IMHO anyway, a short-cut to building the super-details at the very least, if "lazy" is too strong a word...     

As I've pointed out before, "Scope of Effort" is one of the judging-criteria. To think that bending and gluing some brass requires the same talent and scope of effort as a builder fabricating the parts himself from say, styrene strip, rod, stretched sprue, and shaved-off nuts & bolts prior to adding them is, well, offensive to me, both as a scratch-builder and a judge...  I simply can't give points for "store-bought stuff" at the expense of well-built  "scratch-built stuff"... It wouldn't be ethical...

IF "Scope of Effort" is removed from the judging ctriteria, well... Then there's something to consider..