Absentee Contest Wins

I know, Brownie.. Just as one can gain an advantage with the Dragon (the rules), one can lose it as well... As we say in the Chemical Corps, the symbol of which is a rampant dragon:

 

Hans von Hammer

No.. All I want out a of a competion is real, LIVE opponents, and that's what all this damn typing I've been doing is about...   When the smoke clears, I wanna shake the winner's hand.. Oh yeah.. And tell him that I'm coming for him next time, lol..

Hans,

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your desire. The thing is, several times you cited your desire to win through any 'legal' advantage that you can get. As someone (Al?) demonstrated on page 1 or 2 of this thread, it is perfectly legal, according to IPMS rules, to enter by proxy.

Just to clarify something, if it hasn't been apparent from my overall posting history.. I only build dioramas and shadow-boxes, I don't build display or "stand-alone" models...  Therefore, I only volunteer to judge in the Diorama Category, and avoid the others, both as contestant and judge... Genre is unimportant...

That would be an assumption...and an incorrect one at that  (Maybe you're being sarcastic...IDK). 

Yeah, I was being sarcastic... It was directed at those with "nobler" intents than I, I guess, lol.. Perhaps I'm just jaded somewhat in what some folk's true intents are rather than their stated ones...

I didn't know that judges were supposed to pay attention to the attendace of the entrants.  Interesting.

Not really.. It's not a matter of "supposed to" or not... Smaller venues, smaller actual entry-turnout, repeat dioramas, and after you do it awhile, you start recognizing certain people's work, simply by their "signature" on the dioramas, subject matter, or even just pieces/figures on it...

I don't mean an actual signing, but every dio-builder has a certain "thing" he does the same way, every time (whether he's conscious of it or not), and it's as if he or she actually DID sign his work.. There are three guys I saw pretty regularly back in the 80s and 90s...

One guy did armor dioramas that always "starred" the same tank-commander figure, regardless of the build's story, yet another that insisted on the same font on the name and type of name-plate, and the other guy did his tarps, whether on aircraft or armor dios, with the same technique, color, material, and out-of-scale wrinkles, and then there was...  you get the idea..

I've got a signature too... One is deliberate, a "Hammer-mark", if you will, and the others are accidental, same as what I just described above... One "Hammer-mark" that I always have is that there'll be one guy somewhere in the diorama with a goatee... 

I don't think anyone is questioning your passion for the hobby or your desire to see shows/competitions do well.  But I guarantee eliminating proxy entries for competition will cause attendace to drop (at the shows).

Well, I can't really argue with that, since one can't prove a negative...

No need to go to DEFCON 1.  You call it "low rent crap" and the rest of us call it reallity.  You and I both know that anybody who knows anything about the hobby would say...or at the very least think...that an inferior model should not have won simply because the other builder wasn't present.

I call it "low-rent" only if it comes from someone NOT judging, and when that individual goes out of their way to call it out to the individual modeler that just won... The builder may NOT be aware of all the facts in the case, and quite thrilled at accomplishing something they've never done in their modeling life before, and to have that rush "snatched away", so to speak, like that is indeed, low-rent, IMHO... Thinking it, on the other hand, well.. Ain't no law against that, lol..

As a judge, I've never, not once ever, gone up to someone and told them why they won anything... I will, however,and if asked,  tell them why they didn't... Tactfully...  That's where the "lessons learned"  comes in...   Personally, I believe more good comes from telling someone why it didn't happen is a far better learning tool than why it did... Whether they choose to take that advice or ignore it, that's fine...  

I don't have all the answers; I'm not Shep Paine, Francios Verlinden, or Bob Letterman, I'm not a pro, and I'm not in the other judges' heads... But I'll tell ya why I went a certain way on something... As a builder and entrant, you have the right to know...

To say that you want every competitive edge to win sounds "trophy hound-ish."  It sounds like you're saying "My build may or may not be better but I wan't to win so let's change the rules so that I will win." (BTW, I'm not suggesting that your builds are low quality).  And this isn't necessarily wrong but it does turn alot of people off.

I want to win because my build was better...not because I met some rediculous legal criteria that has nothing whatsoever to do with the build itself.  I couldn't care less whether or not the guy I'm competing with is present or not.  Once the plastic is on the table nothing else matters at that point.  I don't think I've ever been to a competition and said to myself: "Man, that's a nice build.  I really hope that guy is here somewhere."

Having said all of this, I have never entered by proxy and I'm not sure I would.  For me personally the fun is being there, seeing the builds, buying stuff from the vendors and hopefully walking out of the contest with an award.  But I'd like to have the option to do it by proxy if necessary.

Of course you have the right to your opinion.  I just really disagree with you on this.

When I say "legal means", I'm refering to following the rules, nothing more, and I probably shoot myself in the foot more often than not by doing so, since don't enter and re-enter the same things, which SOME modelers do, and a few eventually will win SOMETHING, if only to allow the judges a way to never have to see it again, lol.....

The "competitive edge"  means simply that I use the judging criteria to my advantage, especially the one labeled "Scope of Effort", hence my extensive use of scratch-building materials vs "Store-bought" stuff... Whether or not it actually works, well.. The jury's still out on that...  I'd like to think that I score an extra point or three though... If it ultimately makes no difference in my placing or not, that doen't mean I won't continue with it, as it's pretty much all I know now, and I still love doing it... Given the amount of after-market partage being used these days, it seems as if "Scope of Effort" has been redefined anyway...

I too want to win because my build is better... I've lost far more than I've won, and I've lost to inferior builds (IMNSHO) by PROXY entrants too..  Hell, I don't even bother to compete anymore... Last time I won anything was in 1997 and it wasn't the biggest diorama, it wasn't the smallest, and it damned-sure wasn't the most expensive... And I haven't seen the trophy since 1998... So much for being a "trophy-hound", eh? I quit entering and will just do the diorama judging if they need one... I don't like to judge display models.. There are way more guys that'll volunteer for that task anyway, they don't need my help.. I build dios, I'm quite passionate about them, so I like to judge the dios, and that's all there is to it..

Maybe this is why so many people enter by proxy at the shows that you go to.  Based on this comment I imagine that you could be difficult to be around.  I don't know..

I'm not difficult to be around at all.. In fact, I'm pretty much a loner at contests, I don't attract attention to myself, I don't talk to people that don't talk to me first, I'm not in a club, and I travel alone...  "Difficult to be around"? No, sir..  In all likelyhood, you won't even know that I am around, lol.. 'Cept maybe that when some people see me, they might think I'm some homeless guy that wandered in offa the street...

No.. All I want out a of a competion is real, LIVE opponents, and that's what all this damn typing I've been doing is about...   When the smoke clears, I wanna shake the winner's hand.. Oh yeah.. And tell him that I'm coming for him next time, lol..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hans von Hammer

Then let me modify my earlier statement from "Must be Present to Win" to, "Must be Present to Compete."...  Proxy-entrants will be displayed only...  Then everyone can "ooh and ahh" accordingly...  After all, the "true joy" for those is the showing, right? Not the competition?

That would be an assumption...and an incorrect one at that  (Maybe you're being sarcastic...IDK).  I've never put a model on the table without the hopes that it would place and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of entrants would say the same thing.

Hans von Hammer

Truthfully, I've judged at a lot of shows, and I've always been a bit bugged-off by those who consistantly enter, yet can't be bothered with appearing in person... And there're a LOT of those guys out there...

I didn't know that judges were supposed to pay attention to the attendace of the entrants.  Interesting.

Hans von Hammer

...Yet, show after show, I pull MY entrants off the judging table and put 'em on the display table just to help out a club, both financially and with my time,  that can't even get it's own members to all show up...

Good.  I don't think anyone is questioning your passion for the hobby or your desire to see shows/competitions do well.  But I guarantee eliminating proxy entries for competition will cause attendace to drop (at the shows).

Hans von Hammer

And as for those that do that, "You realize the other model deserved to win, right?  Anyway, congrats." low-rent kinda crap, they need to pull their entrants out and judge a few shows if they wanna critique a winner's build...

Whoa, chill out.   No need to go to DEFCON 1.  You call it "low rent crap" and the rest of us call it reallity.  You and I both know that anybody who knows anything about the hobby would say...or at the very least think...that an inferior model should not have won simply because the other builder wasn't present.

The above quote is irrelavent, anyway.  What difference does it make if I judge a contest?  Officially or not we all critique the builds we see, including you.  Its just basic human nature.

Hans von Hammer

I'm not a "laid back, easy-goin', mellow, let's all go along to get along" kinda guy, Tracy... I'm a competitor, and will seek every (legal) edge I can over an opponent...

Maybe this is why so many people enter by proxy at the shows that you go to.  Based on this comment I imagine that you could be difficult to be around.  I don't know..

 

To say that you want every competitive edge to win sounds "trophy hound-ish."  It sounds like you're saying "My build may or may not be better but I wan't to win so let's change the rules so that I will win." (BTW, I'm not suggesting that your builds are low quality).  And this isn't necessarily wrong but it does turn alot of people off.

I want to win because my build was better...not because I met some rediculous legal criteria that has nothing whatsoever to do with the build itself.  I couldn't care less whether or not the guy I'm competing with is present or not.  Once the plastic is on the table nothing else matters at that point.  I don't think I've ever been to a competition and said to myself: "Man, that's a nice build.  I really hope that guy is here somewhere."

Having said all of this, I have never entered by proxy and I'm not sure I would.  For me personally the fun is being there, seeing the builds, buying stuff from the vendors and hopefully walking out of the contest with an award.  But I'd like to have the option to do it by proxy if necessary.

Of course you have the right to your opinion.  I just really disagree with you on this.

Hans von Hammer

I'm a realist too, though.. It has no chance of ever becoming that way,  of it ever happening, but a feller can dream, no? 

Absolutely, Hans. Absolutely.

I'm curious, though. How big of a problem is this, really? At the shows I attend with regularity, there might be one or two guys who are not there to collect their awards and have a friend do it. And these are shows that have a pretty respectable turnout.

Tracy White

I don't see anything wrong or derogatory with the term. If you go to compete you go to win. You want the victory and the spoils, be it a ribbon, wood plaque, or knowledge that you outperformed everyone else in your category.

How about a modelers version of "Miss Congeniality"? 

Well, I reckon that's ok too... I tend to stay local, since my "weekend-getaways" are limited to CAF Wing events and  meetings in Council Bluffs, and that's a two-and a half hour road march from my pos, unless there's an event at Offut AFB across the river, and I can can do both events in one weekend.. But since the Council Bluffs run entails a lot of time with a "1/1 scale" P-51D, I kinda have a priority to the Wing, lol..

Reminds me of the time I won the wing's raffle for a ride-along in Gunfighter to the very next Airshow event... I was fired-up man, my first hop in "Gunfighter", AND it was my first flight in a WW2 FIGHTER, and it was NOT gonna be a "twice around the airpatch" hop, but to an actual EVENT!!!!  

I was going to be in the jump-seat of that beautiful Mustang and get to fly all the way from Council Bluffs, Iowa to...

 

Offut AFB, Nebraska... ...

 

Total flight-time, 20 minutes.. 

My wife got there with the car before I did in the P-51...

Hans von Hammer

Never been one to press m' luck.. If it places, it's "retired"...  Then it's torn down, since I don't have near the room to keep everything I build... 

I've seen exactly what you describe, over and over, Rob... I pretty much can feel the dismay in the air when that guy sees me on the judging panel too, because he knows that, unless he or she fixed what was wrong with that diorama last time, nothing in my military mind is gonna change either, lol...

 

I don't mind if the kit was built that year and enters the local club circuit for the season. In Massachusetts where there were about a half dozen local clubs with shows in a 2 hour radius from Boston. Modelers would bring the kit to each show and then to the regional show. Some would take their kits to the Nationals.

The kits would normally get "retired" from the local shows and the modelers would start again the next year.

Sometimes the kit was finished in between shows and placed highly in Regionals or the Nationals. They often had a table for display only for these major contest winners if that kit hadn't been shown in that particular local show before. I also remember a kit that placed highly in the Nationals being displayed for show only along with the trophy it won. I thought that was nice for the builder to be recognized locally for a kit that placed nationally. It also lets the local attendees see a kit that won nationally if they didn't get a chance to see it there.

Tracy White

Hans von Hammer:

I said why... I'm in it to win it, lol...  And "If winning isn't important", then why enter? Make it a show, period..

That's exactly the point I was hoping you'd make.

I was asking why the *show* would benefit from that change, because that's what the show organizers have to think about. You can't cater to the trophy hounds, because it's a small subset of the overall group. When we looked at our attendance, the vast majority of the attendees were spectators. This is for a show that regularly had 600-1000+ kits.

The Seattle show cost least three grand up front to run in facilities and table rentals.  With that, you can't afford to target 2-3 guys per genera. You can't fail more than once or twice without breaking the club even if the coffers are healthy.

We also had a broad spectrum of modelers to support. Some like competing, but many don't, and we had a fair amount of people complain that our show was too contest focused.  We had one and a half rows of tables for display only and eight and a half for contest. That was the balance I set because the contest entries brought in more money for the club versus the show-only, who could enter as spectators at a reduced price.

The club and the shows exist to support and grow the hobby. Competition and the drive to make the best damned model of XX subject is one aspects that drives the hobby, but for many it's just a desire to put something together and say "I did that!" Nothing wrong with competition, but making the hobby competitively weighed is bad for the its growth. The trophy hounds will still come out to compete, but in the end it's seeing cool models that brings the masses in.

I've never been to a show/contest that even approaches those number, save one, Tracy... At best,  they tend to be in the 100-200 model range, with maybe 50-75 attendees...  And a good number of those folks are wives/kids that get dragged-along with th' ol' man...  And there's always ONE guy that enters 15-20 models, in the hopes of placing somewhere, and then vapor-locks when the guy who entered ONE model places higher...

The one BIG show I went to was in Austin some some 15-18 years ago... Not sure exactly, but it was the same year that Academy (IIRC) released the 1/48 Me109 B/C/D/E kits and a separate category, just for Me109s, had to be created the Day of Show... 

 

Never been one to press m' luck.. If it places, it's "retired"...  Then it's torn down, since I don't have near the room to keep everything I build... 

I've seen exactly what you describe, over and over, Rob... I pretty much can feel the dismay in the air when that guy sees me on the judging panel too, because he knows that, unless he or she fixed what was wrong with that diorama last time, nothing in my military mind is gonna change either, lol...

 

I use it in a derogatory term, but only as it implies in these examples and variations of that theme:

I've seen trophy hounds, guys who constantly put the same mediocre build up show after show, year after year, in hopes of someday getting an award. Seems rather lame to me.

I also know of people who have entered (or tried to enter) pre-built display models into contests as well as folks who have purchased models from modelers who have won contests with that kit and have tried to enter the purchased model on their own.

Some people are very sad.

I don't see anything wrong or derogatory with the term. If you go to compete you go to win. You want the victory and the spoils, be it a ribbon, wood plaque, or knowledge that you outperformed everyone else in your category.

Tracy White

Hans von Hammer:

I said why... I'm in it to win it, lol...  And "If winning isn't important", then why enter? Make it a show, period..

The trophy hounds will still come out to compete...

Why cast anyone who wants to compete under the term "trophy hound"...

Hans von Hammer

I said why... I'm in it to win it, lol...  And "If winning isn't important", then why enter? Make it a show, period..

That's exactly the point I was hoping you'd make.

I was asking why the *show* would benefit from that change, because that's what the show organizers have to think about. You can't cater to the trophy hounds, because it's a small subset of the overall group. When we looked at our attendance, the vast majority of the attendees were spectators. This is for a show that regularly had 600-1000+ kits.

The Seattle show cost least three grand up front to run in facilities and table rentals.  With that, you can't afford to target 2-3 guys per genera. You can't fail more than once or twice without breaking the club even if the coffers are healthy.

We also had a broad spectrum of modelers to support. Some like competing, but many don't, and we had a fair amount of people complain that our show was too contest focused.  We had one and a half rows of tables for display only and eight and a half for contest. That was the balance I set because the contest entries brought in more money for the club versus the show-only, who could enter as spectators at a reduced price.

The club and the shows exist to support and grow the hobby. Competition and the drive to make the best damned model of XX subject is one aspects that drives the hobby, but for many it's just a desire to put something together and say "I did that!" Nothing wrong with competition, but making the hobby competitively weighed is bad for the its growth. The trophy hounds will still come out to compete, but in the end it's seeing cool models that brings the masses in.

I am curious as to how you think limiting the contest to those present only benefits the show in any way?

I said why... I'm in it to win it, lol...  And "If winning isn't important", then why enter? Make it a show, period..

I'm not a "laid back, easy-goin', mellow, let's all go along to get along" kinda guy, Tracy... I'm a competitor, and will seek every (legal) edge I can over an opponent... Plus, as I pointed out, I've pulled my own entries out for "the good of the show", so I have no compunction whatsoever with saying what's on my mind regarding the subject...

I'm a realist too, though.. It has no chance of ever becoming that way,  of it ever happening, but a feller can dream, no? 

I have no problems with proxy entries.  Since I usually only build for the Club/Group Build at the Nationals, my model is delivered and returned to me after the contest.  I would love to have been at the Nationals in the past where the club I belong to has won (IPMS NCT or the George Armstrong Custer Model Building and Gin Drinking Society), but finances haven't allowed that.  Since I'm Head Cat Herder and Rope Pusher for this year's Group Entry, I'll see y'all at the House of the Mouse.

Hans von Hammer

can't be bothered with appearing in person...

We've already covered that. There's a lot of builders who can't show up, and labeling it as "can't be bothered" I find a little rash. Not everyone is retired and setting their own priorities.

I ran the IPMS Seattle Spring show for a number of years so I'm "a little" familiar with shows. I am curious as to how you think limiting the contest to those present only benefits the show in any way?

Fly-n-hi

Imagine this:  You place your model on the table and then someone else places a model on the table next to yours.  Unfortunately for you the other model is clearly better than yours.  But the other model is being entered by a proxy which disqualifies it from competition.

Now everybody who is at the show can see that your model is inferior.  But when the awards are presented you get first place and the other model gets nothing because it was entered by a proxy.  And since you were standing there near your model when the awards were given out you heard all the little comments like "Seriously?" or "You're kidding me!" or "He must be friends with the judges."  Are you really gonna be ok with that?  

And how are you going to react when someone walks up to you and says: "You realize the other model deserved to win, right?  Anyway, congrats."

Heck, this is almost as cheesy as getting a first place simply because your model was the only one in its category.  If you want a competitive edge build better models.

Then let me modify my earlier statement from "Must be Present to Win" to, "Must be Present to Compete."...  Proxy-entrants will be displayed only...  Then everyone can "ooh and ahh" accordingly...  After all, the "true joy" for those is the showing, right? Not the competition? 

Truthfully, I've judged at a lot of shows, and I've always been a bit bugged-off by those who consistantly enter, yet can't be bothered with appearing in person... And there're a LOT of those guys out there...  Yet, show after show, I pull MY entrants off the judging table and put 'em on the display table just to help out a club, both financially and with my time,  that can't even get it's own members to all show up... 

And as for those that do that, "You realize the other model deserved to win, right?  Anyway, congrats." low-rent kinda crap, they need to pull their entrants out and judge a few shows if they wanna critique a winner's build...

 

 

 

 

 

I think, if it gets more entries into contests, it doesn't hurt anything. The one that I (try) to go to every year varies enormously in the number of entries in each category. The one I favor, ships, has ranged from a low of 6 to a high of about 20. Anything that boosts the number - as long as it's ethical - is fine by me.

A plague on all their houses!!

I've seen trophy hounds, guys who constantly put the same mediocre build up show after show, year after year, in hopes of someday getting an award. Seems rather lame to me.

I also know of people who have entered (or tried to enter) pre-built display models into contests as well as folks who have purchased models from modelers who have won contests with that kit and have tried to enter the purchased model on their own.

Some people are very sad.

the doog

It's tempting to think that someone's just plunking down models to get wood for their walls, but that might be being a bit overly-cynical?

No, that's why I enter...

Imagine this:  You place your model on the table and then someone else places a model on the table next to yours.  Unfortunately for you the other model is clearly better than yours.  But the other model is being entered by a proxy which disqualifies it from competition.

Now everybody who is at the show can see that your model is inferior.  But when the awards are presented you get first place and the other model gets nothing because it was entered by a proxy.  And since you were standing there near your model when the awards were given out you heard all the little comments like "Seriously?" or "You're kidding me!" or "He must be friends with the judges."  Are you really gonna be ok with that?  

And how are you going to react when someone walks up to you and says: "You realize the other model deserved to win, right?  Anyway, congrats."

Heck, this is almost as cheesy as getting a first place simply because your model was the only one in its category.  If you want a competitive edge build better models.

I don't think it's really cynical, but at the same time, different people enjoy the hobby in different ways. Some go to shows to look at models, some go to socialize, some go to win. I think any variety can be taken to the extreme,  but in and of themselves, no one is better or "more correct" than another.

With the sometimes-dismal turnout at some shows that I've been to, I would say "Let 'em compete!".Anything that gets more models on the table sand more competition is a good thing.

Personally, I would like to see the guy who wins, and comfort myself that at least I have better hair than him, , but if he's not there, it doesn't really bother me. I was at a big contest once, and had to go pick up my fiance' from a school function across town, and so missed some of the awards.

It's tempting to think that someone's just plunking down models to get wood for their walls, but that might be being a bit overly-cynical?

I see no reason to not allow proxy entries.

There are no real disadvantages unless you're placing your desire to win above the overall show's interest and draw. You get more to look at. The show takes in more money. Even if you don't get to talk to the modeler, you get to see the kit live and at least discus it, if not try and get a name to find out who to talk to later.

My wife is into model horses, and there's a lot of proxying in that hobby as well. People like it because it allows them to see new models instead of their friends same horses year after year.

I have no problem with absentee entrees.  I have even entered some friends models at local and National contest.  I don't like doing it really,  to much work and responsibility.  And they act like was my fault if they don't win,  in one case anyway, a long time ago.  So it goes.

I recall at the Phoenix Nationals a few years ago when some entrant had to leave early.  He had a buddy pick up his models for him Saturday night.   I guess he didn't have a very good list of which models to pick up, because his friend picked up one of mine, a non winner by the way,  by mistake.So it was gone when I got to the contest room.  Really gone.  After much work, the guys from the convention found out who it was, and a few weeks later it was sent back to me, unharmed.  He was a great guy, very sorry for what happened.  So sometimes errors can  happen with absentee entrants.  Probably rare.

Doug

Hans von Hammer

I'm still on the "Must Be Present to Win" side of the fence... Frankly speaking, it IS a contest, after all, and not a "show"...  I'll take any advantage I can get in a competion... 

That makes sense IF the contest is to build at teh event. NO one is truly completing as in a race the day of the contest. Your entry will or won;t place depending on what is on the table, not if the person is present. It's not a raffle, though it might be considered a crap shoot based on what shows up the day of the show.

The only true day of the event competitions I've ever heard of were team builds where the person who is hands on is blindfolded and being guided by a person who isn't and the event where a sledgehammer is dropped from a step ladder onto a model. The winner is the model whose parts scatter the farthest. Another was a "carrier deck landing" wherein a modeler usess a wire guide to "land" his model on the deck of a carrier. In all these events, there is much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of the plastic involved.