bashing kits and their companies

Manstein's revenge

My New Year's resolution will be to re-double my kit-bashing efforts... 

haha, Manny,,,,,,showing your age, and shining light on mine

we both remember when "kit-bashing" was a Great thing to do, haha,,,,,,,,sadly, I remember the very first time I read the phrase,,,my first reaction was,,,,"whaaaaaatt?"

Rex

Those are big numbers ................

My New Year's resolution will be to re-double my kit-bashing efforts... 

Hans von Hammer

Rex, I curse the companies that drove the cottage industries outta existance...   And I often cursed the modelers that demanded that all kits have all the bells and whistles in their kits...  Instead of learning the now rapidly-vanishing art of gizmology and scratchbuilding, they decided, long ago, that they'd rather pay than create...

Wait a minute, Hans. Aren't you playing both sides of the fence here? On the one hand, you miss those small cottage shops because of the fine AM products they made. But on the other hand, you think modelers have lost the art for 'gizmology' that would remove the need to buy those same products, thus resulting in the demise of the self-same companies whose demise you lament...

this is off topic a bit, but, I have been dying to say this

"Hans, you, yes you, are the guy that 'ruined' me"

It is because of you, and your constant mention of Gizmology, that I have decided not to wait for certain underwing stores for some of my more off beat ideas

So, I now have 1/48 parts in my spare parts box, just enough to make the radar pod for an A-1, and the pods for the EA-6A, and some 3,000 pound bombs for knocking down a bridge in 'Nam

it is alllll your fault that this "off scale" stuff has sneaked into my "pure 1/72" parts box,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and,,,,,,,Thank You

I probably wouldn't have thought of it, except for you posting

Rex

Reasoned

Hans von Hammer:

...  It would also probably open up some classic (and new) stuff from Dyersviille, IA too, in the aircraft dept...

 

 

 

 

What's in Dyersville?

AMT/ERTL, MPC, and Polar Lights (ex Aurora)

Rex, I curse the companies that drove the cottage industries outta existance...   And I often cursed the modelers that demanded that all kits have all the bells and whistles in their kits...  Instead of learning the now rapidly-vanishing art of gizmology and scratchbuilding, they decided, long ago, that they'd rather pay than create...

Sigh.. At least Tom's Modelworks is still around.. I used his 1/28 scale PE sets on my WW1 Revell aircraft...  'Course, I also spent many an hour with a pin-vise and a # 78 bit drilling the cooling jackets outta Spandaus, too, lol..

I for one, don't mind "limited run" kits, simply because they are many times the only game in town for certain subjects (like Modelcraft's 1/48 F-82)... But, were I not at an "advanced-modeler" (for lack of a better term), and skilled at scratch-building parts and in finding the "Gizmos" (Hence the word, "Cizmologist, lol) around the house and elsewhere to use as detail parts, I would have avoided it like the plague, based on what the internet talk was like...

 As it was, it was just another model, albeit one I had to beat into submission, lol.. But once certain basic issues are dealt with, it builds up into a fine model..

The "Little guys" cared way more about their products than most of the big guys do, and were easy to contact too... Even before email and the websites...

No, I'd much rather a company produce a large number of "Medium" kits, like the Revell/Monogram "Skill-Level" 2 and 3s, than the 600-part stuff that's coming out today...  As the Monogram VP once said in an IPMS Newsletter, "We've found it much better to produce an affordable kit with raised lines. That way, we're able put the money saved with the molds into researching and developing the next new kit release."...

Hans von Hammer

...  It would also probably open up some classic (and new) stuff from Dyersviille, IA too, in the aircraft dept...

 

 

 

What's in Dyersville?

TarnShip

This comment should also go into the "keeping it real" department

We are constantly told that the total forum members online don't add up to (insert tiny percentage of the week here) of the total number of model kit customers.

So, a week ago, it was said we had practically "no voice" that could affect other builders or the kit manufacturers (which could be very true, considering the MiG-21 postings, and the kit that ended up coming out anyway)

This week, we all gotta be really careful, or our large "voice in the hobby" might get corporations to shut down their plastic kits division, and focus on,,,,,,ohhhh, I dunno,,,,,,RC cars or Gundams, or something equally shocking

Maybe in January, we'll be able to all get the kits released that we are waiting for to complete our collections,,,,,when the wind shifts in the other direction again?

Hans, you just pointed out the group that actually can live or die based on the internet talk

The really small companies, the guy that carves a master, sends it out to be cast by a small cast production company, and struggles mentally with the idea of passing on any small increase in cost to the customers, or just eating that extra cost for a while, and not passing it on until the next cost increase

They get the resins sets in such small quantities, that you can sometimes see yourself and other people "waiting in line" to get the item during a restock

or the small decal company, that has to pay more per sheet because he can't afford to have even one failure if he buys in quantities of 500 sheets or more

those guys release, market, sell,,,,,,or fail,,,,,all based on the internet, and the chatter there, "regular" modelers sometimes don't even know they have a product

small resin, photo etch, decal, book, CD, and very short run kit companies are the ones living on the edge,,,,,not the "produce 10,000 moldings, store 5,000 kits in bags for a later release" kit makers,,,,,or the "it is considered a failure if we don't sell at least 10,000 copies of your book" publishers (the book number is very real, lol)

Rex

Wouldn't bother me a bit if some Japanese and Chinese model companies started making car parts...

Long as they ship one certain company's molds back to Illinois where they belong...  It would also probably open up some classic (and new) stuff from Dyersviille, IA too, in the aircraft dept...

Oh, and imagine the cottage-industries that could spring back to life for the AM resin and PE people, most of which died of starvation due to the Far East companies that included such parts (abelit for a price)... 

gunner_chris

.

It's all economics.

Bingo.

In the long run the market is very efficient in determining what's produced, how much is sold and the price.

If a company sells enough product at a profit, then they stay in business.  If not, they don't.  In the end the consumer dictates what happens.

I agree with Manny, that the range of products available now is greater than it's ever been.

I think that one needs to filter personal preferences/opinions out of the equation.  Some folks are going to prefer basic early-Airfix type kits and some will go for photoetch and resin enhanced super kits.  That helps to explain why there's such a wide range of products available. 

Mark

BTW, I thought it was a clever, well-written article.  It certainly achieved the objective of stimulating some thought and discussion.  Well done.

This comment should also go into the "keeping it real" department

We are constantly told that the total forum members online don't add up to (insert tiny percentage of the week here) of the total number of model kit customers.

So, a week ago, it was said we had practically "no voice" that could affect other builders or the kit manufacturers (which could be very true, considering the MiG-21 postings, and the kit that ended up coming out anyway)

This week, we all gotta be really careful, or our large "voice in the hobby" might get corporations to shut down their plastic kits division, and focus on,,,,,,ohhhh, I dunno,,,,,,RC cars or Gundams, or something equally shocking

Maybe in January, we'll be able to all get the kits released that we are waiting for to complete our collections,,,,,when the wind shifts in the other direction again?

37 statements, all are "always true",,,,and all conflict

okay, back to fill, sand, fill, sand, fill, sand, fill,,,,,and SHAKE!!! on this Tomcat

What the .......................? If the article had been true i would of said " so what ?" Life is no day at the beach . If someone gets offended and has to run off and slam the doors shut well then go ahead ! I'm sure there are plenty of existing  manufacturers out there that would buy up the molds and keep producing !   What a piece of fiction !

Phil_H

We're not talking about general bashing per se, but people bashing a product which they haven't seen except in preview pics or based on another person's opinion. This is quite different to "I don't like company X's models because they don't fit well" or "they're too simple" or "they're too expensive for what you get in the box".

Phil

You are right, this is different from liking or disliking a particular company. I'd also say that it is being overblown by the original authors bit of fiction. I mean, be realistic - how big of an issue is this really? Show me an example where this happens regularly and consistently.

I'm with the doog, but I'll put it a little less delicately. That bit of fiction is bull$hit.

We need to put this back into context.

We're not talking about general bashing per se, but people bashing a product which they haven't seen except in preview pics or based on another person's opinion. This is quite different to "I don't like company X's models because they don't fit well" or "they're too simple" or "they're too expensive for what you get in the box".

To look at it from another perspective, a couple of days ago, I saw a forum page where there was a summary of a yet to be aired episode of a TV series, presumably written by someone who had been a member of the studio audience and attended the filming of said episode. This summary provided a breakdown of the scenes and general description of events,  X said <insert dialogue>  Y said <insert dialogue> kinda stuff.

Now this is in no way the finished product, yet people seem compelled to respond and critique, saying things like "this episode doesn't really seem that funny to me" and "that doesn't make much sense" when they're not actually watching it, they're talking about a page of text describing the production on a  computer screen. 

Interesting parallel isn't it?

stikpusher

But I am not worried- even if every model company on the planet were to shut its doors tomorrow and not produce and sell another kit, I will survive and my stash will keep me busy. 

Indeed. At my current rate of production (approx 10-12 builds/year) my current stash could keep me in plastic for approximately 10 years.

It's funny what a little piece of fictional humor can start here. Get out the torches an pitch forks I think we have it pretty good in the hobby these days overall. Some things-  subject selection and detail being the two main ones,  are better (for the most part), while some things- pricing and production runs being two big ones- are not. But I am not worried- even if every model company on the planet were to shut its doors tomorrow and not produce and sell another kit, I will survive and my stash will keep me busy. But as long as that model zombie apocalypse does not happen, I will keep my eyes open for that kit that fills a void in my collection or gives me a chance as an adult to re tackle that kit I that built when I was in grade school.

zokissima

 

smeagol the vile:

 

If that happens and two of the names are 'Academy' and 'Trumpeter' I wont be sad at all, never had a good experience with those kits.

 

 

That's your loss man, since both companies, like every other company on the market, have some fantastic products, and some that are less so. I built, from both companies, very early, to very recent offerings, and I don't understand what the crying is about.

 

Maybe their planes are better then the rest of their stuff but I have a few academy figure kits and there... not good at all, the old Esci kits I have are heads and tails over them, I also had a 1/25th scale Jagdpanther from academy and while it wasn't bad the details were a bit lacking and the fit left something to be desired as well, sort of like it was a smaller kit just blown up, or an RC kit that had to motor removed.

Trumpeter... my experience with them basically comes down to horrible fitting.  First, and only, trumpeter kit I bought (as far as I remember) was a rail car, flat bed with a panzer turret on it.  The tracks it gave you came on a little base and none of the parts matched up leaving awkward and jagged looking rocks where the seams were, it was atrocious, and the kit itself had horrible fitting issues leaving big gaps and when the surface has a diamond metal floor texture you cant very well just throw some putty in the gap and say 'done!'

The most consistent "bashing" I see usually consists of "I can get five Revellogram P-48 Whipperzingers for the price of that new kit".

Which isn't bashing so much as a mindset. Monitor any car forum and you'll see the same thing. "If BMW wants to actually sell cars, they'd price the new 3-Series at $25,000". Monitor any talk of new electronics and you'll see the same thing.

I do see some of the other...about a P-47's fuselage being 2 scale millimeters to wide in cross-section or such...but tune most of it out since it seems rather rivet-countery. I'm much more interested in how the kit is engineered and how it builds.

Reading comments from various modelers for about ten years on the internet now has led me to believe that most individuals don't really make purchases based on reviews, but rather based on their interests in a given subject matter.

Mostly, yes. I think of it as there are two kinds of kits - journey kits and destination kits.

A destination kit is one you build because of the subject matter. All the kit options may be compromised in one way or another, but darnit, you REALLY want a P-38 Lightning. Or a Spitfire Mk.Vc or whatever.

A journey kit is one you build because of the kit, even if the subject matter only kind of interests you. I'm no massive Spitfire fan, but that's exactly why I built Tamiya's big Spit VIII - to build the kit. 

I believe every kit everyone builds is somewhere on a sliding scale between journey and destination and chosen accordingly.

smeagol the vile

If that happens and two of the names are 'Academy' and 'Trumpeter' I wont be sad at all, never had a good experience with those kits.

That's your loss man, since both companies, like every other company on the market, have some fantastic products, and some that are less so. I built, from both companies, very early, to very recent offerings, and I don't understand what the crying is about.

As to the topic at hand, I think its a little bit of a waste of breath. The fact remains that large-scale manufacturing is performed for the sole purpose of financial gain. If a company REALLY went under due to negative feedback, doesn't that say something about the products they release at large?

Also, considering the plethora of manufacturers available today, it seems only a logical assumption, just as in every other industry, that not all of those companies are going to survive forever.

Reading comments from various modelers for about ten years on the internet now has led me to believe that most individuals don't really make purchases based on reviews, but rather based on their interests in a given subject matter.

randypandy831

don't know why people bash on trumpeter. I've built one of their kits with no problems. most people that bash never scene or built the kit. just want to believe everything and they read. all companies have good N bad kits. I've got two hasegawa kits that turned into trash. i don't base my review of the company over one bad kit. it happens. 

To a point i would totally agree, i try and take each company one kit at a time. But there are some things you can take as a given. I haven't built an Academy kit yet, though i have a few. But i have read so many time that their decals are poor. And of course, i have to take account of this and prepair to use AM decals for their kits. And there are other things you can almost count on with a certain brand.

maybe i just don't visit the right modelling site, to be honest i only regular visit 3, well 2 now PMMS has gone quiet. But i can't say i have seen company bashing, just people pointing out errors in kits. And as long as these companies are makeing money, they will carry on produceing kits, good and bad.

I very much enjoy in box and / or build reviews from sites and individuals on the Web. To be honest, I trust some reviewers opinion more than others. If they mention a kit that isn't up to snuff, I'll take it off my want list even if it's a subject I'm interested in. If they praise a kit but I realize it requires a higher skill level than mine, again I'll pass.

I haven't seen much actual bashing of products but do appreciate when the trusted reviewers point out a kit's deficiency. Thanks to these reviewers, I've saved time, money and frustration!

There is one in particular I like to read, Tom Cleaver. I think his reviews are unbiased and contain good information, not to mention that he also builds very well! I've also received very good advice here on FSM.

So while bashing kits serves no purpose, a well written review, be it positive or negative, is a great help-.

I think the whole article is total malarkey.

First, a fictional tale as stated by the author.

Second, perhaps I am sheltered as I do not see / read the bashing and bitching that is professed.

I've been purchasing for 50+ years and, for the most part, know what I am getting into prior to monies being exchanged.     If I would "bash" or otherwise, it would be with my poor retail judgement.

don't know why people bash on trumpeter. I've built one of their kits with no problems. most people that bash never scene or built the kit. just want to believe everything and they read. all companies have good N bad kits. I've got two hasegawa kits that turned into trash. i don't base my review of the company over one bad kit. it happens. 

If that happens and two of the names are 'Academy' and 'Trumpeter' I wont be sad at all, never had a good experience with those kits.

Personally if you make something its going to be bashed.  Heck, Frederick the Great and CPE Bach maliciously set out to humiliate his father, JS Bach, and he is one of the titans of music.  It is ALWAYS going to happen.  If you cant take it just get out now, honestly.

With the CAD stuff, I dont mind it if they do it early but I dont want to look at photos on a store, or on the box and see CAD drawings instead of images of the actual kit, that is a serious no go for me, same as if the box doesn't have any images of it besides artwork.

Honestly, for people that build gundam kits there is a certain site or two that open the box and put up images of every single sprue, the instructions, and how the kit looks built so we can know,  open box reviews are almost a necessity. 

Also, Bandai is a good example, they CONSTANTLY strive to make their products better and better.  The only complaint you can have is that the price is going up and up with the quality.  Other companies though... they just seem to stagnate and keep doing stuff the same way they have been for years just with more advanced tools.

[quote user="Bish"]

Manstein's revenge:

 

[quote user="Bish"]

Just because we are only gluing pieces of plastic together shouldn't mean we should pipe up when something is in correct.

[/quote...]"should" or "shouldn't" ?

 

taking English lessons from a Yank how embarrassing

[/quote]

Manny a Yank?

...maybe...........

just sayin'...............

Don't let von Manstein's question escape here.  I have no data either but we do seem to be enjoying a flood of new kits featuring new models, variants, and even types.  I concentrate usually in 1/48 WWII aircraft, and even in that small slice of the hobby there is a lot of exciting stuff going on.  Throw in the whole realm of the hobby and it looks like manufacturers old and new are churning out plastic at a breakneck pace.  Maybe manufacturers are monitoring forums, utube, twitter and the rest of the internet and saying that there is a sophisticated clientele out there that will pay good money for plastic and all the related paraphernalia.  Maybe they realize that there is a high  and low end that customers will patronize.  And maybe, just maybe the bashing and bitchin is influencing them in a manner that will create an urgency to excel in accuracy and quality, raising the industry to a new level.  

I have a very limited knowledge of the model industry, but I do work in the compression and injection plastic industry.  The machines that design and manufacture the tooling/molds for injection parts are a quantum leap from the early days.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I guess with equipment like that in house a manufacturer would have a lot more ability to design and produce molds faster and at a lower cost from all the hand work of the old days.  But for one reason or another, Manny is right, there seems to be a lot going on these days.  Rick